Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Who else knows what we know, Jerry?
Khjj
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Khjj » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:17 pm

What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

Sure, there are plenty of people who would fall within the category of "conspiracy theorist" and also the category of "irrational." But to say that the two are in any way inherently linked is just plain false. It's no better, in terms of logic, than if I were to say that all police officers are corrupt simply because some police officers are corrupt. It's a bald-faced generalization. It 's a very dogmatic mentality to have and it is contrary to the openness required for truly scientific thought.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8008
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Poodle » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:38 pm

Well said, Khjj. Except for your blanket definition of conspiracy theory. Oh, and your implication that it is better to believe a conspiracy theory at first sight rather than be suspicious of it. In fact, the whole feel of your post appears to me to be a swipe at the normal skeptical standpoint with very little evidence that your view is correct. This, however, is merely my impression gained from what you actually wrote as I actually read it.

Do you believe in fairies, Khjj? I suspect that you don't and would, out of hand, disbelieve any story you were told which involved fairies. If the perpetrator of the fairy story then coupled the existence of fairies with murky secret government organisations whose sole purpose appeared to be to pull the wool over all our collective eyes, I'm almost certain that you'd laugh. Until, that is, the solid evidence of the existence of fairies was forthcoming.

Obviously, stories concerning aliens or ghosts are inherently more believable than fairy stories. Aren't they?

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:40 pm

Conspiracy theorists are primarily interested in making a person or group look bad. They do this disingenuously by pretending to bring "the truth" to light. But when "the truth" doesn't stand up to inspection they don't care, because "the truth" doesn't matter, it's the slander, libel, and calumny that is important.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2057
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:45 pm

Because they often are?

Mind you, there are conspiracies and there are CONSPIRACIES. Limited scale conspiracies, corruption, nepotism etc happen all the time. The pope being in cahoots with aliens and illuminati, well...

Grand conspiracy theories arent necessarily illogical (although they often are that too in my experience), but they rely on hearsay, unproven statements and speculation to the nth degree.

Mind you, the term is usually applied as an indication of outlandishness and silliness. Proper investigative journalism is called exactly that, journalism.

So, which theories is it that you feel we should take more seriously and (importantly) why?

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

Khjj
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Khjj » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:36 pm

Poodle wrote:Well said, Khjj. Except for your blanket definition of conspiracy theory...


Back up a second. What was incorrect about my definition of "conspiracy theorist?" Do you know what "conspiracy" means? Do you know what "theory" means? It's a very simple, straightforward thing to define. Could you address your claim that I somehow incorrectly defined "conspiracy theorist?" Just because the term has now become popularly loaded down with negative connotations and reduced to little more than a shorthand way to insult someone's sanity/intelligence does not mean this is the case in reality.


Poodle wrote:Oh, and your implication that it is better to believe a conspiracy theory at first sight rather than be suspicious of it. ...


Also, where at all in my post did I imply that it is a good idea to believe a conspiracy theory on first sight? One of the general themes of my whole comment was that suspicion and scepticism are good, as opposed to dogmatism. This is a straw man argument, which is another type of logical fallacy.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28967
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:29 pm

Khjj wrote:What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

Sure, there are plenty of people who would fall within the category of "conspiracy theorist" and also the category of "irrational." But to say that the two are in any way inherently linked is just plain false. It's no better, in terms of logic, than if I were to say that all police officers are corrupt simply because some police officers are corrupt. It's a bald-faced generalization. It 's a very dogmatic mentality to have and it is contrary to the openness required for truly scientific thought.

The accumulated examples to date would suggest correlation, if not causation. In either case, there seems to be a definite link.

My personal take on it is that irrationality leads to conspiracy theories. I begin any examination of any conspiracy theory with that in mind, and require evidence to the contrary before I begin to accept the theory.

Is there any particular conspiracy theory you had in mind?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:32 pm

Khjj wrote:What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

You're strawman's on fire, just thought you should know.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19394
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:56 pm

Gord wrote:Is there any particular conspiracy theory you had in mind?


I hope it's the Alien pope OutOfBreath mentioned. :-P
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2057
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
I hope it's the Alien pope OutOfBreath mentioned. :-P

I must admit, I had to go look now. But it seems the best connection is the theory that the pope were to announce the presence of aliens june 5th. He did not, so not very exciting. But illuminati connections, well there are encyclopedias on that. :)

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8008
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Poodle » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:58 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
I hope it's the Alien pope OutOfBreath mentioned. :-P

I must admit, I had to go look now. But it seems the best connection is the theory that the pope were to announce the presence of aliens june 5th. He did not, so not very exciting. But illuminati connections, well there are encyclopedias on that. :)

Peace
Dan


I have it on good authority (which I cannot reveal for fear of my life) that he did, in fact, do that very thing, but his breach of Intergalactic Rule 5762(b) was promptly followed by the mobilisation of the biggest UFO ever built which flew around the Earth flashing a bright light into the eyes of every single human within two minutes. Of course, I can't personally vouch for this information, as I can't remember any of it actually happening. That, in itself, is the obvious proof that it did.

User avatar
supervitor
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:52 pm

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby supervitor » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:56 pm

Khjj wrote:What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

Sure, there are plenty of people who would fall within the category of "conspiracy theorist" and also the category of "irrational." But to say that the two are in any way inherently linked is just plain false. It's no better, in terms of logic, than if I were to say that all police officers are corrupt simply because some police officers are corrupt. It's a bald-faced generalization. It 's a very dogmatic mentality to have and it is contrary to the openness required for truly scientific thought.

I think you're confusing something. There's no claim that conspiracy theory is synonymous with irrationality. It's just a negative conotation that the word acquired, probably rightly so, because so many of them don't stand up to the test of critical thinking.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:23 pm

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26077
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:15 am

Khjj wrote: What was incorrect about my definition of "conspiracy theorist?" Do you know what "conspiracy" means? Do you know what "theory" means?
You have fallen into your own definition trap.

A rational scientist, applying the scientific method is only concerned that you are presenting them with "a hypothesis" to explain the observed facts. That you categorise that this hypothesis is a "conspiracy theory" up front, already introduces a "qualification" and "character" that may not be part of the actual theory. The logical reasons presented in the theory should speak for themselves and all cases should be reviewed separately and on their own merit. Only a fool would artificially place all subjectively perceived conspiracy theories in the same set and judge them in a unique way.

As for association of conspiracy theories having a high number of "nutters", that is really about how pragmatically, a scientist quickly assess which hypothesis to bother reading first. Obviously there is a high correlation between "nutters" and conspiracy theories and therefore there is a higher inherent risk of fraud or bad science in a conspiracy theory hypothesis. However, it doesn't matter to a scientist in the long run, because he reads the hypothesis in isolation based on its own merits.

Do you have a particular conspiracy theory you would like to discuss as an example?

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:11 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

main reason is the mental health system . shrinks make a lot of money and wealthy friends by labeling people who complain - paranoid

their influence is so great it affects everyone's thinking and attitude

it is what shrinks do - control thought - :burn:
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

User avatar
Scott Mayers
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:56 pm
Custom Title: Deep

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Scott Mayers » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:57 am

Khjj wrote:What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

Sure, there are plenty of people who would fall within the category of "conspiracy theorist" and also the category of "irrational." But to say that the two are in any way inherently linked is just plain false. It's no better, in terms of logic, than if I were to say that all police officers are corrupt simply because some police officers are corrupt. It's a bald-faced generalization. It 's a very dogmatic mentality to have and it is contrary to the openness required for truly scientific thought.

I agree to your concern and spoke on this before somewhere here in the past. Conspiracies really DO exist but are most often in subtle forms that don't require directly participating. Many companies do this by merely recognizing the logic to conform to similar standards of other companies sharing the same needs. Also, the way they can lobby governments to create laws that disable accountability serve all companies in kind to behave in sync with one another. And example of this is the ubiquity of using clauses within all EULAs that enable them to alter supposed 'agreements' that steal away the nature of consumers to actually have real options to agree or disagree.

I also don't find in practice real threats with those advancing entertaining type of conspiracies like Aliens or Big Foot as these often act as foundations in absurdity that eventually encourage skepticism through debate. These act as exercises to aid in rationalizing. So I welcome the more obviously absurd ones.

We always 'conspire' regardless when we agree with another for any political or other similar practical reason.
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26077
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:50 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?
main reason is the mental health system . shrinks make a lot of money and wealthy friends by labeling people who complain -
Because you have made an irrational claim.

You claim there is a conspiracy by every psychiatrists working in the health industry, to make money and magically this causes people to believe all conspiracies are irrational. This, of course, is simply insane and irrational. It is you and your posts that causes normal people to think all conspiracy theorists are irrational.

Can you see that?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7258
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby TJrandom » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:59 am

Khjj wrote:What is a conspiracy theorist, by definition? It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other. Now what is inherently irrational about that? Why do people seem so convinced that "conspiracy theorist" is synonymous with "irrational person?" That's a fundamentally flawed line of logic. There is no inherent, logical connection between the two thing they are trying to link. No inherent linkage, you see?

Sure, there are plenty of people who would fall within the category of "conspiracy theorist" and also the category of "irrational." But to say that the two are in any way inherently linked is just plain false. It's no better, in terms of logic, than if I were to say that all police officers are corrupt simply because some police officers are corrupt. It's a bald-faced generalization. It 's a very dogmatic mentality to have and it is contrary to the openness required for truly scientific thought.


I`d like to tweek your deffinition (irrational conspiracy therorist).... It is someone who supports a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other in the face of it having been shown to be false.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8008
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Poodle » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:36 am

Khjj wrote:
Poodle wrote:Well said, Khjj. Except for your blanket definition of conspiracy theory...


Back up a second. What was incorrect about my definition of "conspiracy theorist?" Do you know what "conspiracy" means? Do you know what "theory" means? It's a very simple, straightforward thing to define. Could you address your claim that I somehow incorrectly defined "conspiracy theorist?" Just because the term has now become popularly loaded down with negative connotations and reduced to little more than a shorthand way to insult someone's sanity/intelligence does not mean this is the case in reality.


Certainly. "It is someone who puts together a theory about a suspected scam of some sort or other" is your definition. A scam is a dishonest fraud - a swindle. This is not a broad enough description to cover a conspiracy theory - not all conspiracy theorists are swindlers. Misguided, yes, but swindlers? Not necessarily. Your incorrect definition is designed to preload any point you may make in the future.

Khjj wrote:
Poodle wrote:Oh, and your implication that it is better to believe a conspiracy theory at first sight rather than be suspicious of it. ...


Also, where at all in my post did I imply that it is a good idea to believe a conspiracy theory on first sight? One of the general themes of my whole comment was that suspicion and scepticism are good, as opposed to dogmatism. This is a straw man argument, which is another type of logical fallacy.


The title? The content? The language you use creates that implication - you are about to launch yourself on a crusade for your pet conspiracy theory.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?
main reason is the mental health system . shrinks make a lot of money and wealthy friends by labeling people who complain -
Because you have made an irrational claim.

You claim there is a conspiracy by every psychiatrists working in the health industry, to make money and magically this causes people to believe all conspiracies are irrational. This, of course, is simply insane and irrational. It is you and your posts that causes normal people to think all conspiracy theorists are irrational.

Can you see that?


I believe we have a real opportunity here - figure out why everyone here keeps using the insanity offense to discredit my insights and you will have the answer to your question
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:00 pm

Have you ever thought that the insanity offense is the proper technique to handle your insights?
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Regular Poster
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:01 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?
main reason is the mental health system . shrinks make a lot of money and wealthy friends by labeling people who complain -
Because you have made an irrational claim.

You claim there is a conspiracy by every psychiatrists working in the health industry, to make money and magically this causes people to believe all conspiracies are irrational. This, of course, is simply insane and irrational. It is you and your posts that causes normal people to think all conspiracy theorists are irrational.

Can you see that?


I believe we have a real opportunity here - figure out why everyone here keeps using the insanity offense to discredit my insights and you will have the answer to your question
Most of your claims are self-referential and designed to take responsibility off of yourself and so you can always be in the position of a victim. If you really believe what you're saying with nothing more than a vague posibility, then yes, you are being irrational.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:04 pm

why not attack the validity of the insight , instead of attacking me ??????????
because the insight is true

my being irrational has less then zero to do with the activities of the WORLD PSYCHIATRIC ASSO. / CULT
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Regular Poster
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:16 pm

I am attacking your argument. None of your claims are falsifiable and rely on the premiss that there's a possibility that you're right, rather than showing reliable evidence that shows you're right.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:20 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:why not attack the validity of the insight , instead of attacking me ??????????
because the insight is true

my being irrational has less then zero to do with the activities of the WORLD PSYCHIATRIC ASSO. / CULT

Because we've done this {!#%@} a thousand times. You're not original or even interesting.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Hex
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:26 pm
Custom Title: mi malam ciuj el vi
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Hex » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:34 pm

For me the "conspiracy theorist" has defined the term for me. I didn't go out of my way to paint "conspiracy theorists" as batshit insane. It is what the "conspiracy theorists" propose that prove to be batshit insane and it happens so often that I was backed into a corner to start using the label as they presented it.

So, if you want to castigate anyone, put your focus on your fellow "conspiracy theorists."
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoaOJZ7Dfk

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:53 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:I am attacking your argument. None of your claims are falsifiable and rely on the premiss that there's a possibility that you're right, rather than showing reliable evidence that shows you're right.


Good comment , interesting and original / for this group anyway .
one example would be how the tobacco industry attacked the doctor who exposed them - said he was insane , tried to drive him insane .
I will try to look for other examples
thanks for not attacking me directly
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26077
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:17 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:I am attacking your argument. None of your claims are falsifiable and rely on the premiss that there's a possibility that you're right, rather than showing reliable evidence that shows you're right.

psychiatry is a scam wrote:Good comment , interesting and original / for this group anyway .


In essence, you keep making posts, concerning how "you are a victim of evil psychiatrists", regardless of the actual topic being discussed. You claim "you want to get better psychiatric treatment" but never lift a finger to do anything to improve your situation. Instead, you are avoiding medical treatment.

Can you imagine that we may get frustrated and occasionally annoyed, reading your posts?
ga780806.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Monster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4952
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Tarrytown, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Monster » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:01 pm

Khjj, I found this article today. I think you might like it.

http://time.com/3997033/conspiracy-theories/
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28967
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:43 pm

Monster wrote:Khjj, I found this article today. I think you might like it.

http://time.com/3997033/conspiracy-theories/

Ooh! Ooh!

http://time.com/3970113/jade-helm-15-conspiracy-theory/

But are those who believe in governmental conspiracies really paranoid, in the clinical sense of the word? And if Jade Helm-like conspiracy theories are on the rise, is this an indication that, as a culture, we’re becoming more paranoid? As I detail in my upcoming book Paranoid: Exploring Suspicion From the Dubious to the Delusional, I believe the answer very well might be “yes.”

Yeah. Well, either that, or the author's a bit paranoid. :nuts:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19173
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:27 pm

Look, they got away with the first fourteen Jade Helms, nobody has any information on those at all.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Scott Mayers
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:56 pm
Custom Title: Deep

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:47 pm

What I think that most people don't recognize is that often the ones who actually conspire most will have it in their interest to foster a fear of those suggesting it for rational reasons. As such, we cannot dismiss even absurd claims of conspiracy. Instead it is best that if we sincerely believe someone is in error, we try to focus on their particular concerns by allowing them to speak and then attend to it in a constructive way without prejudice. If one believes that you are attempting to dismiss them or ridicule their concerns, this may appear to only satisfy the condition of those preferring to hide their own choices to conspire. It also acts exponentially on both extremes by creating the very conspiratorial thinking that both may originally not have had just as trolling results from simply accusing another of it right or wrong exponentially creates trolling on both sides.
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28967
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:30 am

Scott Mayers wrote:As such, we cannot dismiss even absurd claims of conspiracy.

I'm pre-e-e-e-etty sure we can.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

Canadian Skeptic
Regular Poster
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:10 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:27 pm

For what it's worth, the academic community currently studying conspiracy theories is actively interested in separating "conspiracy theory" from "irrational belief." I would probably even say that most of the papers published on the topic today either focus directly or indirectly on the issue at some point. Personally, I think there's a lot of work left to be done to continue this vein (and much more work to be done in the public arena), but it is being addressed, at least.

Without trying to comment on their true/false nature (some conspiracies inevitably are true -- the NSA really is spying on us -- while others are not -- 9/11 was not, in fact, orchestrated by Bush), what seems to compel some people to belief in a given conspiracy narrative, and others to reject them, seems to be less based on rational/irrational argument in either direction and more based on socio-cultural/religious/etc. convictions -- prior beliefs that the conspiracy either jives with, or does not jive with, dictating whether one accepts it or not. For the most part, anyway (and I'm obviously simplifying my views on it).

By the way, that's not to say that one side does not have a stronger logical basis in fact; one side inevitably does (depending on the topic). My main point is that people tend to pick sides not based on that logical (or illogical) basis in fact, but other considerations, and this holds true equally for people on either side of the spectrum. This, I think, is the direction scholarship is currently going, at least from the papers I've been reading recently.

User avatar
Hex
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:26 pm
Custom Title: mi malam ciuj el vi
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Hex » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:38 pm

Canadian Skeptic wrote:For what it's worth, the academic community currently studying conspiracy theories is actively interested in separating "conspiracy theory" from "irrational belief." I would probably even say that most of the papers published on the topic today either focus directly or indirectly on the issue at some point. Personally, I think there's a lot of work left to be done to continue this vein (and much more work to be done in the public arena), but it is being addressed, at least.

That is all well and good and I guess admirable in trying to take back the meaning of a word(s). But, unfortunately we live in a world where words can be co-opted into meaning different things. Like "liberal" now equates "socialist" in America, for example.

I've not once suggested that there are not conspiracies, real ones with real implications, I'm just not willing to dive into one on someones bizarre interpretation of what constitutes a conspiracy.

As I have noted above, it wasn't me that has attached the meaning to "conspiracy theorist" as it has become to be known today. But, it has become so ingrained it is a useful shorthand when conversing about it as everyone has a general understanding as to what you mean, rather than having to explain what you mean.
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoaOJZ7Dfk

Canadian Skeptic
Regular Poster
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:10 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:18 pm

Hex wrote:That is all well and good and I guess admirable in trying to take back the meaning of a word(s). But, unfortunately we live in a world where words can be co-opted into meaning different things. Like "liberal" now equates "socialist" in America, for example.

I've not once suggested that there are not conspiracies, real ones with real implications, I'm just not willing to dive into one on someones bizarre interpretation of what constitutes a conspiracy.

As I have noted above, it wasn't me that has attached the meaning to "conspiracy theorist" as it has become to be known today. But, it has become so ingrained it is a useful shorthand when conversing about it as everyone has a general understanding as to what you mean, rather than having to explain what you mean.


Yep, I really don't disagree with you -- that's why I specifically clarified my response as referring to academic discussion of conspiracies (i.e., published papers in the social sciences). Its meaning in the public sphere is obviously different still (and I think more in line with dismissing conspiracies as irrational). To my knowledge, much of that form of thinking -- that conspiracy theorists are "crazy" or some such -- can be linked to post-Freudian analysis in which many "deviant" beliefs were categorically determined to be some form of delusion, mental disorder, paranoia, etc. That view started to shift among scholars around the 60s (specifically thinking of Richard Hofstadter here), and has continued to move away from "delusional beliefs" ever since and towards other explanations.

User avatar
Scott Mayers
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:56 pm
Custom Title: Deep

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Scott Mayers » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:18 pm

Gord wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:As such, we cannot dismiss even absurd claims of conspiracy.

I'm pre-e-e-e-etty sure we can.

What do you know about 'prettiness'!? :P
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

User avatar
Scott Mayers
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:56 pm
Custom Title: Deep

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Scott Mayers » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:35 pm

Canadian Skeptic wrote:For what it's worth, the academic community currently studying conspiracy theories is actively interested in separating "conspiracy theory" from "irrational belief." I would probably even say that most of the papers published on the topic today either focus directly or indirectly on the issue at some point. Personally, I think there's a lot of work left to be done to continue this vein (and much more work to be done in the public arena), but it is being addressed, at least.

Without trying to comment on their true/false nature (some conspiracies inevitably are true -- the NSA really is spying on us -- while others are not -- 9/11 was not, in fact, orchestrated by Bush), what seems to compel some people to belief in a given conspiracy narrative, and others to reject them, seems to be less based on rational/irrational argument in either direction and more based on socio-cultural/religious/etc. convictions -- prior beliefs that the conspiracy either jives with, or does not jive with, dictating whether one accepts it or not. For the most part, anyway (and I'm obviously simplifying my views on it).

By the way, that's not to say that one side does not have a stronger logical basis in fact; one side inevitably does (depending on the topic). My main point is that people tend to pick sides not based on that logical (or illogical) basis in fact, but other considerations, and this holds true equally for people on either side of the spectrum. This, I think, is the direction scholarship is currently going, at least from the papers I've been reading recently.

What about the kinds of things that are less certain to pinpoint as causes? For instance, while the Bush's, for instance, may not have had any direct fault for 9/11, wouldn't it be possible for them to have intentionally encouraged some sort of terrorist act with predictable expectancy by shaping or framing the political atmosphere that inevitably leads to it? In other words, conspiracies can still be a product of intentional framing the backdrop to which they could encourage some expected or desired behavior but 'appear' unaccountable.

This is how negligence operates in a similar light. Instead of directly harming your target, you can conspire to do it indirectly by what one opts not to do as much as what they do do. To me, this type of intellectual behavior acts can be indistinguishable from sincere ignorance and so we only default to presume others innocent unless we can prove direct and specific acts that cause the harm. This is also more 'evil' in many ways when or where they occur.
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

Canadian Skeptic
Regular Poster
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:10 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:14 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:What about the kinds of things that are less certain to pinpoint as causes? For instance, while the Bush's, for instance, may not have had any direct fault for 9/11, wouldn't it be possible for them to have intentionally encouraged some sort of terrorist act with predictable expectancy by shaping or framing the political atmosphere that inevitably leads to it? In other words, conspiracies can still be a product of intentional framing the backdrop to which they could encourage some expected or desired behavior but 'appear' unaccountable.

Right. Now in that *specific* case, where Bush (or American foreign policy generally over the preceding decades) did in fact contribute directly to the eventual (and arguably predictable) outcome of 9/11, one could certainly say that America had a hand in the events of 9/11. However, I probably wouldn't classify this as a conspiracy, but only because it doesn't have the same kind of intentionality that I think is normally assigned to conspiracy theories. I would attribute it more to incompetence of American foreign policy than explicit conspiracy.

Having said that, is intentionality a necessary component of conspiracy theories -- their sui generis? I imagine one could form a pretty good argument against it, though I'm currently of the belief that intention matters.

User avatar
Scott Mayers
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:56 pm
Custom Title: Deep

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Scott Mayers » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:52 pm

Canadian Skeptic wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:What about the kinds of things that are less certain to pinpoint as causes? For instance, while the Bush's, for instance, may not have had any direct fault for 9/11, wouldn't it be possible for them to have intentionally encouraged some sort of terrorist act with predictable expectancy by shaping or framing the political atmosphere that inevitably leads to it? In other words, conspiracies can still be a product of intentional framing the backdrop to which they could encourage some expected or desired behavior but 'appear' unaccountable.

Right. Now in that *specific* case, where Bush (or American foreign policy generally over the preceding decades) did in fact contribute directly to the eventual (and arguably predictable) outcome of 9/11, one could certainly say that America had a hand in the events of 9/11. However, I probably wouldn't classify this as a conspiracy, but only because it doesn't have the same kind of intentionality that I think is normally assigned to conspiracy theories. I would attribute it more to incompetence of American foreign policy than explicit conspiracy.

Having said that, is intentionality a necessary component of conspiracy theories -- their sui generis? I imagine one could form a pretty good argument against it, though I'm currently of the belief that intention matters.

You can't always prove intentions directly though. Neglect forms of abuse are often inferred by one's other actions too. A good example of this is how Saddam Hussein was targeted by the U.S. as acting with apparent evil when he attacked Kuwait. Our media reports him as simply wanting to steal Kuwait's wealth as a mere extension to Iraq's already existing wealth in oil. Yet logically, knowing that Iraq was indirectly being 'neglectfully abused' by how it is land-locked and being controlled economically by the favor granted towards Kuwait to act as Iraq's gate to the world that limited his country's capacity to independence and fair trade, represents how 'we' act in ways to abuse others to the point they require acting out with more obvious intents.

As such, these people have a real argument against the Americans as being culpable to a conspiracy. A similar argument exists with the State of Israel against the Palestinians. It is in the interest of those who accuse some myth to conspiracy theories also to be the ones who stage absurd ones purposely to give doubt to others too. It is why I questioned how here on this site why we place an unusual emphasis on presenting "Holocaust Denial" as a special form of conspiracy theory rather than have that topic absorbed in the other general areas instead. I think there are actually more people who believe in Big Foot than Holocaust Denial. Yet we don't provide a distinct general class of Big Foot. This shows how our acts actually foster and shape what will be conspiracies in a type of indirect conspiracy itself.
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

Canadian Skeptic
Regular Poster
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:10 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Why do people think conspiracy theorist is a synonymous with "irrational person"?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:14 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:You can't always prove intentions directly though.

Yes, but again, my argument only applies to what people believe (and why), not what you can prove. Separate issues.


Return to “Conspiracies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest