JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:They will mine this release for material for their next books/podcasts/videos/appeals for donations, and smirk all the way to the bank. "Aha! Secret Service agent was wearing brown shoes! THAT PROVES IT!!!!!" etc.


Why do you apparently think that the remaining files should be closed to average taxpaying US citizens forever?

Why do you need them?
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Monster » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:21 pm

Gord wrote:
Dave Reitzes wrote:With another anniversary of the assassination fast approaching, kindly allow me to bump this thread. Please check out the links in the OP.

Thanks,

Dave Reitzes

...and please ignore the poster named "gorgeous".... 8-)



gorgeous wrote:unless you want the truth...


That made me :lol: .
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:59 pm

Pyrrho wrote:They will mine this release for material for their next books/podcasts/videos/appeals for donations, and smirk all the way to the bank. "Aha! Secret Service agent was wearing brown shoes! THAT PROVES IT!!!!!" etc.


Why worry about how much fun conspiracy theorists have between consenting adults?

This is the latest from just a few minutes ago:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 790454001/
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:03 pm

Pyrrho wrote:They will mine this release for material for their next books/podcasts/videos/appeals for donations, and smirk all the way to the bank. "Aha! Secret Service agent was wearing brown shoes! THAT PROVES IT!!!!!" etc.


Why worry about how much fun conspiracy theorists have between consenting adults?

Is that really enough reason to prevent the release of the files?

Remember what Mencken said about prohibitionists,...that they are haunted by the fear that somewhere someone is having a good time?

Aha! Do you have another, SECRET reason why you don't want the files released?

This is the latest from just a few minutes ago.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 790454001/
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:58 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: Same with the Moon landing. If the Russians, who were tracking the flight (probably hoping for a miss so they could gloat over the dying astronauts), had evidence that the transmissions weren't coming from the Moon they'd have been on the air in minutes.


Absolutely true. The UFO fans, who claim there is an international "Men in Black" organisation, run away whenever they are asked to explain how this conspiracy is meant to work.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:10 pm

Tom Palven wrote: Why do you apparently think that the remaining files should be closed to average taxpaying US citizens forever?
Pyrrho didn't say that.

The reason a document is restricted or marked "guard" to a limited subscription list, is unique to each document. Each document is a case by case basis.

Let's pretend a friendly Russian gave the CIA information about Oswald in Russia and is named in a JFK report. That same Russian may have given information about some aircraft range in another document. He will be taken out and shot by the Russians when they match names and make the connection.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Why do you apparently think that the remaining files should be closed to average taxpaying US citizens forever?
Pyrrho didn't say that.


Pyrrho expressed concern that conspiracy theorists "will mine this release" and, like you, Cheney, Pompeo, and Ollie North, has expressed no support for disclosure that I have seen. (I hope you like being in that group. If the shoe fits, why not wear it proudly?)
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:06 am

Tom Palven wrote: Pyrrho expressed concern that conspiracy theorists "will mine this release"
That's right. The idiots will mine it for nonsense to try keep the conspiracy story alive. That was his joke about "OMG he wore brown shoes!" He didn't say he cared if the US government releases documents or not. :lol:

Tom Palven wrote: and, like you, Cheney, Pompeo, and Ollie North, has expressed no support for disclosure that I have seen. (I hope you like being in that group. If the shoe fits, why not wear it proudly?)

That's hilarious. You put me in the same group as Dick Cheney, Ollie North and Pompeo because I know about redacting names in reports. It must be a very very large group, as it also includes Obama, Gandhi and every other leader on the planet. :lol:

What magical new stories are you expecting to be in these new documents to be released? Don't tell me : JFK ordered that JFK be shot.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:07 am

Seriously, there's no reason to extrapolate my cynicism to an opinion that I don't hold.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gord » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:38 am

Pyrrho wrote:Seriously, there's no reason to extrapolate my cynicism to an opinion that I don't hold.

Sure there is! There are many reasons to do it, from comedic to conspiratorial.

(Wait, that's not a very wide range. I probably should have said "from arbitrary to zoological", that would have covered a much wider swath of the dictionary.)
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:35 am

With two days to go Hornberger puts his money on the Deep State:
https://www.fff.org/2017/10/23/predict- ... ion-cover/
Last edited by Tom Palven on Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:51 am

Pyrrho wrote:Seriously, there's no reason to extrapolate my cynicism to an opinion that I don't hold.


Why not? People do that to me all the time. It seems to be the general modus operandi here.

Btw, you got a thank you from "tnjrp."

Who is that? Am I missing some kind of conspiracy?
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:02 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Seriously, there's no reason to extrapolate my cynicism to an opinion that I don't hold.


Why not? People do that to me all the time. It seems to be the general modus operandi here.

Btw, you got a thank you from "tnjrp."

Who is that? Am I missing some kind of conspiracy?

Must be. We'll put our top men on the case.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:34 pm

Secret member.JPG


Once when walking down the stair,
A member, thanked him, who wasn't there.
He'd never post, nor post today,
Who was this member anyway?


I don't know who tnjrp is but he or she's been a forum member since 2006. :D
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Secret member.JPG

Once when walking down the stair,
A member, thanked him, who wasn't there.
He'd never post, nor post today,
Who was this member anyway?


I don't know who tnjrp is but he or she's been a forum member since 2006. :D


Definitely seems like Deep State.

Glad that Pyrrho is putting his best people on the case.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:07 am

Tom Palven wrote: Definitely seems like Deep State.
As this person joined within year after the forum started it would more likely to be a subscriber to Skeptic Magazine who had an interest in JFK.

I don't believe in any "Deep State" simply because this magical deep state has no way of coordinating itself.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Definitely seems like Deep State.
As this person joined within year after the forum started it would more likely to be a subscriber to Skeptic Magazine who had an interest in JFK.

I don't believe in any "Deep State" simply because this magical deep state has no way of coordinating itself.



I was kidding about tnjrp being Deep State, but as far as there being a Deep State, here are a couple of examples of what I consider to be evidence:

1. Obama seemed to be in favor of the Mohamed Morsi led Freedom and Justice Party parliament which won a solid democratic election victory in Egypt, but CENTCOM funded, aided and abetted, and probably orchestrated the military coup by General al-Sisi, although we probably won't have acknowledgement of this from the powers-that-be for 50 years.

2. CENTCOM orchestrated a coup attempt on the very popularly-elected President Erdogan of Turkey in July of 2016 during the hot US Presidential election campaign, which failed. That coup attempt was apparently not authorized by the US Congressional branch and it seems unlikely that it was authorized by Obama's executive branch which had other things to worry about at the time.

But if it wasn't either the Congressional, Judicial or Executive branch of government that initiated those coup attempts (AND MANY OTHERS, SOME OF WHICH ARE THOUGHT TO BE MENTIONED IN THE SEALED KENNEDY FILES), who did authorize them?

Whoever did authorize them is sometimes called The Deep State, Big Brother, The Secret Police,The-Powers-That-Be, Uncle Sam, The Intelligence Community, Those Friggin A-holes, and other things.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:37 am

The Guardian asks for help in reading the documents today (bottom of article):
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... l-archives
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:17 am

Yeah, the most logical reason is a giant conspiracy...
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:24 pm

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:05 pm

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:40 am

Imho the story should be titled TRUMP CAVES TO DEEP STATE

This AOL story says that 2,800 DOCUMENTS have been released, but it is my understanding that there were 3,600 unreleased FILES each file containing thousands of documents totaling over 5 MILLION pages.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/1 ... /23257596/

So, apparently at least hundreds of thousands of possibly heavily-redacted pages will be withheld, as Jacob Hornberger and many other people predicted.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:23 am

Tom Palven wrote: So, apparently at least hundreds of thousands of possibly heavily-redacted pages will be withheld, as Jacob Hornberger and many other people predicted.


I predicted it. I even told you the exact reason why this would happen.

An intelligence game scenario may take 40 years. The Russians recruited people at university in the 1930s for the hope they would be senior civil servants in the 60's and 70s.

Let us pretend the CIA asked a Russian friendly to report on Oswald in Russia. That person may still be working in Russia. If CIA housekeeping doesn't redact that person's name from the disclosed documents, that friendly will be tried and gaoled for decades. That means no more friendlies will ever talk to the CIA.

Espionage is not about making the public happy. Espionage is about collecting intelligence for a narrow set of users to make decisions to protect the public or understand the enemy.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: So, apparently at least hundreds of thousands of possibly heavily-redacted pages will be withheld, as Jacob Hornberger and many other people predicted.


I predicted it. I even told you the exact reason why this would happen.


Yes, you did, but Trump, like many people, said he wanted the files released, and the fact that he said that "had no choice" but to withhold hundreds of thousands of pages implies that he surrendered to the Deep State, whether you think that was appropriate or not.
https://www.rt.com/usa/407903-jfk-assas ... -released/
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:06 am

"The lack of evidence proves that there is evidence that hasn't been found yet."
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"The lack of evidence proves that there is evidence that hasn't been found yet."


https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=jo ... ORM=IQFRBA
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:34 am

Yes, Tom, that's a link.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I predicted it. I even told you the exact reason why this would happen.
Tom Palven wrote:......... but to withhold hundreds of thousands of pages implies that he surrendered to the Deep State, whether you think that was appropriate or not.

No. It's actually the law in the USA, under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (1981) . That's why GW Bush got into so much trouble when he blew Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. Technically, once the CIA states a agent or officer is in a document a federal employee cannot make that document public without risking prosecution.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: I predicted it. I even told you the exact reason why this would happen.
Tom Palven wrote:......... but to withhold hundreds of thousands of pages implies that he surrendered to the Deep State, whether you think that was appropriate or not.

No. It's actually the law in the USA, under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (1981) . That's why GW Bush got into so much trouble when he blew Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. Technically, once the CIA states a agent or officer is in a document a federal employee cannot make that document public without risking prosecution.


"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:06 am

Tom Palven wrote:"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
– Dwight D. Eisenhower, Five-Star General and US President, Farewell Address [January 17, 1961]


What has legislation to protect CIA officers and agents got to do with the military industrial complex?

"In war nothing is more important to a commander than the facts concerning the strength, dispositions, and intentions of his opponent, and the proper interpretation of those facts. In peacetime the necessary facts are of a different nature. They deal with conditions, resources, requirements, and attitudes prevailing in the world. They and their correct interpretation are essential to the development of policy to further our long-term national security and best interests. To provide information of this kind is the task of the organization of which you are a part.

Because I deeply believe these things, I deem it a great privilege to participate in this ceremony of cornerstone laying for the national headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency. On this spot will rise a beautiful and useful structure. May it long endure, to serve the cause of America and of peace."


President Dwight D. Eisenhower, Laying of cornerstone for CIA building, 3 November 1959

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
– Dwight D. Eisenhower, Five-Star General and US President, Farewell Address [January 17, 1961]


What has legislation to protect CIA officers and agents got to do with the military industrial complex?


If the CIA morphed into an exporter of international terrorism that overthrows democratically-elected governments it, shouldn't it's secret police supporters suffer the consequences, just as guards and minor functionaries at Nazi death camps were tracked down by Ellie Wiesel?

This is a link to a consequence of the CIA/MIC/CENTCOM/Deep State alliance attempting the overthrow the democratically-elected and very popular Erdogan government of Turkey.
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/10/27/nato ... ian-s-400/

Things are unravelling for the US Deep State now, both militarily and economically, and certainly not for lack of spending, and
maybe it's unpatriotic to cheer this on and to be whistle-blower one's now just as it was unpatriotic for Germans to be against their government in 1940, but so what?
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
– Dwight D. Eisenhower, Five-Star General and US President, Farewell Address [January 17, 1961]


What has legislation to protect CIA officers and agents got to do with the military industrial complex?


If the CIA morphed into an exporter of international terrorism that overthrows democratically-elected governments, shouldn't it's secret police suffer the consequences, just as guards and minor functionaries at Nazi death camps were tracked down by Ellie Wiesel?

This is a link to a consequence of the CIA/MIC/CENTCOM/Deep State alliance attempting the overthrow the democratically-elected and very popular Erdogan government of Turkey.
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/10/27/nato ... ian-s-400/

Things are unravelling for the US Deep State now, both militarily and economically, certainly not for lack of spending, and
maybe it's unpatriotic to cheer this on and to be a whistle-blower to one's own regime, just as it was unpatriotic for Germans to be against their government in 1940, but so what?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqzmE2OB0bE
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:42 am

Do you ever read anything that is contrary to your views?
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Do you ever read anything that is contrary to your views?


On my "favorites" list I have, alphabetically:
Al-Jazeera
Australian news- news.com.au
The Guardian
Le Monde
Reuters
Russia Today

I glance at them every morning to see if anything sparks my interest, and also have the Times-Union (Jacksonville, FL) delivered, from which I get regular MSM news.

I'll take a peek at Haaretz, The Intercept, LewRockwell.com, The Sane Progressive, and Spiked News every once in a while, and enjoy listening to Terry Gross and Ira Flatow on NPR, and also tune in Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh every so often to check out my enemies' talking points.

Do you read, watch, or listen to any news other than the US mainstream media, and if so what?
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:47 pm

No, I don't read anything, not even this forum.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:49 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:No, I don't read anything, not even this forum.

I'm shocked.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:52 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:No, I don't read anything, not even this forum.

I'm shocked.

My work here is finished.
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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: What has legislation to protect CIA officers and agents got to do with the military industrial complex?
Tom Palven wrote:If the CIA morphed into an exporter of international terrorism that overthrows democratically-elected governments it, shouldn't it's secret police supporters suffer the consequences, just as guards and minor functionaries at Nazi death camps were tracked down by Ellie Wiesel?


1) The CIA does not "morph". It has a steering committee. So does every other intelligence service.
2) When officers take short cuts or break the law or sell out to other nations they go to jail.
3) 99.999999% of war criminals were arrested by normal police and military police and not Wiesel.


You seem unaware that the CIA is now heavily regulated after the FBI discovered the head of CIA anti-Soviet activities, Aldrich Ames, was a long term Russian spy. Up to that point, the Russians knew more about the CIA than the CIA.

Tom Palven wrote:Things are unravelling for the US Deep State now, both militarily and economically, and certainly not for lack of spending,.....
The 19th Century British Indian private armies ran the whole of India and Burma, with no regulation whatsoever. They started endless wars ( Opium Wars against China). Moved entire national productions (tea production from independent China to controlled India) and so on. Today, all these things are regulated and countries spy on other countries to dob them in to international courts. The modern deep state is just a fantasy name for normal bad things like corruption, criminal activity and bad policy decisions.

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:07 pm

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern says it's Deep State 1, Trump 0.
http://original.antiwar.com/mcgovern/20 ... mph-trump/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: JFK Conspiracy Theories in SKEPTIC

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:24 pm

You know you're on The List now, right?
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