Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

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Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:16 am

I found a multitude of videos where people claim to have seen hell in either a dream or an NDE, and what I realized is that all these reports sound consistent:

- falling through a black hole
- hearing screams
-seeing souls suffering
- seeing fire
-meeting demons who often say "we got you now"
- the demons beat people, and look like reptiles
- then the person calls out to Jesus or God, and a light appears
-this light saves them

There are many of these kinds of videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhOynR9Jxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_3H9O4LSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwFruS4rpdI

all of these sound so similar

I wonder how so many people could hallucinate/dream the same thing, especially this last link was a mormon woman who didn't believe in hell, and had no exposure to it. How did she experience what so many experience?

they seem so consistent.

Any rational thoughts on this?

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:24 am

IT'S STILL BS.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:31 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:34 am

Kamil wrote:... this last link was a mormon woman who didn't believe in hell, and had no exposure to it. ...


What? Who are you kidding? She is living in hell... exposed to it 24x7. :roll:

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gord » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:08 am

They all had "exposure" to the mythology of Hell, or Hades, or any of a number of other places of afterlife torment.

Just like when people dream they've been abducted by aliens -- their claimed experiences are always based on cultural preconceptions of what someone in that situation would experience.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:10 am

Gord wrote:They all had "exposure" to the mythology of Hell, or Hades, or any of a number of other places of afterlife torment.

Just like when people dream they've been abducted by aliens -- their claimed experiences are always based on cultural preconceptions of what someone in that situation would experience.


but do Christians expect to see demons in hell that torutre them? I thought they just see Satan?

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:19 am

You can visit hell anytime you want to. Just swing a black cat over your head at midnight to attract and capture a Unicorn. Ride that unicorn to an Alien Spacecraft and have them take you there.

Beyond silly.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You can visit hell anytime you want to. Just swing a black cat over your head at midnight to attract and capture a Unicorn. Ride that unicorn to an Alien Spacecraft and have them take you there.

Beyond silly.


Or just ask gorgeous... he will take you there.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:43 am

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You can visit hell anytime you want to. Just swing a black cat over your head at midnight to attract and capture a Unicorn. Ride that unicorn to an Alien Spacecraft and have them take you there.

Beyond silly.


Or just ask gorgeous... he will take you there.

Via a nde? I wouldn't trust ANYONE to "help" with that. I see the ads for the new "Flatliners" teen flick. Looks like pure dreck. Loud noises and shadows..........Oh My!!!
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:36 am

Kamil wrote:I found a multitude of videos where people claim to have seen hell in either a dream or an NDE, and what I realized is that all these reports sound consistent:

- falling through a black hole
- hearing screams
-seeing souls suffering
- seeing fire
-meeting demons who often say "we got you now"
- the demons beat people, and look like reptiles
- then the person calls out to Jesus or God, and a light appears
-this light saves them

There are many of these kinds of videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhOynR9Jxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_3H9O4LSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwFruS4rpdI

all of these sound so similar

I wonder how so many people could hallucinate/dream the same thing, especially this last link was a mormon woman who didn't believe in hell, and had no exposure to it. How did she experience what so many experience?

they seem so consistent.

Any rational thoughts on this?


Yes it is elementary. Consciousness is one, not two, not three or four. It is a dreamlike state, a common theme over which all other conscious dreams are superimposed. I could tell you more but judging by the state of your mind I doubt whether you would understand even the basics. But if it's any consolation most here are at a similar stage, so it is not all bad. :D

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:43 am

Kamil wrote:
Gord wrote:They all had "exposure" to the mythology of Hell, or Hades, or any of a number of other places of afterlife torment.

Just like when people dream they've been abducted by aliens -- their claimed experiences are always based on cultural preconceptions of what someone in that situation would experience.


but do Christians expect to see demons in hell that torutre them? I thought they just see Satan?


Satan demons, ghouls, ghosts, monsters. They come to the same. Like gord said, it is just exposure to stupid ideas.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gord » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:48 am

Kamil wrote:
Gord wrote:They all had "exposure" to the mythology of Hell, or Hades, or any of a number of other places of afterlife torment.

Just like when people dream they've been abducted by aliens -- their claimed experiences are always based on cultural preconceptions of what someone in that situation would experience.

but do Christians expect to see demons in hell that torutre them? I thought they just see Satan?

Christians might expect to see demons the same way anyone else might -- because it's rooted in their subconsciousness due to expose through the culture in which they live.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:52 pm

Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.
Because they're religious, they know they're dying, and they see what they expect to see. We've talked about this multiple times already.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:38 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.
Because they're religious, they know they're dying, and they see what they expect to see. We've talked about this multiple times already.



I was raised Christian though and so were people in my community. All of us never expected hell to have demons like that. We all imagined one might burn and potentially see Satan or a devil, but not multiple demons beating a person up saying "we got you now" which seems to be common on these NDE cases. The demons are said to look like reptiles and they attack people.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:56 pm

Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.

Retrofitting their memories after they wake up.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:58 pm

Kamil wrote:I found a multitude of videos where people claim to have seen hell in either a dream or an NDE, and what I realized is that all these reports sound consistent:

- falling through a black hole
- hearing screams
-seeing souls suffering
- seeing fire
-meeting demons who often say "we got you now"
- the demons beat people, and look like reptiles
- then the person calls out to Jesus or God, and a light appears
-this light saves them

There are many of these kinds of videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhOynR9Jxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_3H9O4LSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwFruS4rpdI

all of these sound so similar

I wonder how so many people could hallucinate/dream the same thing, especially this last link was a mormon woman who didn't believe in hell, and had no exposure to it. How did she experience what so many experience?

they seem so consistent.

Any rational thoughts on this?
There's no reason to believe there is a Hell. Sadly, there's no reason to be in any kind of survival after the brain dies. Get over it, the universal laws are geared to your persistence.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:23 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.

Retrofitting their memories after they wake up.

...heavily colored by guilt and shame, but also a sense of specialness.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:28 am

Peoples minds are amazing, as we all know. Anyone brought up in a religion generally ends up brainwashed to the idea of that particular religion. When you are subjected to these beliefs day after day, you will end up believing them.

And even when you tell yourself that it is all BS, that nagging doubt is still there. I was raised as a catholic and for many years thought that this is the one true religion, with it's heaven, hell and purgatory.

Thankfully I've always had a rebellious nature, which then evolved into a very much questioning nature. Being forensic in my research into things, I soon found it was indeed all BS. There simply is NO PROOF whatsoever to support these beliefs. It is not easy to change ones beliefs from religious to atheist, but anyone prepared to research it all with an open mind, it can be done.

But the human psyche being what it is, makes it very hard for people to let go of that last vestige of hope. Hope eternal. Apart from cosmic dust after the big bang, there was no "before", and when we die there is nothing but dust and ashes, which probably end up as cosmic dust again. So people enjoy it whilst you can because we have a very short time to experience life.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gord » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:05 am

Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.


I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.
Because they're religious, they know they're dying, and they see what they expect to see. We've talked about this multiple times already.

I was raised Christian though and so were people in my community. All of us never expected hell to have demons like that. We all imagined one might burn and potentially see Satan or a devil, but not multiple demons beating a person up saying "we got you now" which seems to be common on these NDE cases. The demons are said to look like reptiles and they attack people.

Not all Christians go to the same community. There are many different types of Christian, and many of them believe in demons.

Just look at Bill Wiese: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bill_Wiese

Bill Wiese is a con artist real estate agent, Christian speaker, and author of the New York Times bestseller 23 Minutes in Hell. In Bill's book, he claims to have had an out-of-body experience that led him into Hell, where he was tortured and eventually rescued by Jesus, who told Bill to tell everybody of his experience ... preferably in the form of a lucrative book deal and Christian talk circuit tour.

He sells books to Christians describing demons in Hell torturing him.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:41 am

Gord wrote:... He sells books to Christians describing demons in Hell torturing him.


As well they should!

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:16 pm

Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.
I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.
Because they're religious, they know they're dying, and they see what they expect to see. We've talked about this multiple times already.
I was raised Christian though and so were people in my community. All of us never expected hell to have demons like that. We all imagined one might burn and potentially see Satan or a devil, but not multiple demons beating a person up saying "we got you now" which seems to be common on these NDE cases. The demons are said to look like reptiles and they attack people.
Perhaps you're discounting the effects of popular culture on the imagination. Movies. TV shows. Neither of which exactly adhere to biblical canon. For example...

Hellraiser's Cenobytes (from a Russian website)
Image

The Possession (from a Japanese website)
Image

Demons 2
Image

Whoops! No idea how this one got in here. Scariest one of the bunch, IMO.
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby gorgeous » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:19 pm

demons are real...disturbed, hostile souls....same as bullies on Earth......they torment people traveling out of body at times...when ignored they leave...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:26 pm

gorgeous wrote:demons are real...disturbed, hostile souls....same as bullies on Earth......they torment people traveling out of body at times...when ignored they leave...


Gorgeous from what you have seen do most hellish experiences eventually turn positive?

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:IT'S STILL BS.
I just can't put my finger on how all these people see demons in their experiences.
Because they're religious, they know they're dying, and they see what they expect to see. We've talked about this multiple times already.
I was raised Christian though and so were people in my community. All of us never expected hell to have demons like that. We all imagined one might burn and potentially see Satan or a devil, but not multiple demons beating a person up saying "we got you now" which seems to be common on these NDE cases. The demons are said to look like reptiles and they attack people.
Perhaps you're discounting the effects of popular culture on the imagination. Movies. TV shows. Neither of which exactly adhere to biblical canon. For example...

Hellraiser's Cenobytes (from a Russian website)
Image

The Possession (from a Japanese website)
Image

Demons 2
Image

Whoops! No idea how this one got in here. Scariest one of the bunch, IMO.
Image


LOL that's too funny especially the last guy. I just wish I knew forsure that hell isn't real. EVen if the odds are low, what scares me is we don't actually know. That's why I hope there is no afterlife. I find the idea of living and eventually just dying to be comfortable. Of course, it doesn't matter what I want, either it's true or it's not.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Hell isn't real. Shut up about it and it will go away.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:40 pm

And if he/she/it can't, they should seek professional help. Just like with georgie, albeit in a different way, I don't think it healthy that they would wallow in their paranoia, fears and hallucinations.


(As always, georgie, plz don't forget to wear your helmet! We wouldn't want it to get worse...)
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:09 pm

yes it will change to a positive event when strongly desired...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:52 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:And if he/she/it can't, they should seek professional help. Just like with georgie, albeit in a different way, I don't think it healthy that they would wallow in their paranoia, fears and hallucinations.
Some people enjoy their terrors.


(As always, georgie, plz don't forget to wear your helmet! We wouldn't want it to get worse...)

Oh, please. He might get funny with enough TBI.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:01 pm

The other night I had a dream where I was fighting a giant lizard monster and all I had was a spear. It ran at me and opened its mouth to bite me, and I shoved the spear right down its {!#%@} throat upto my shoulder, and it bit my arm off. And I woke up.

I have awesome dreams. :)
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:15 am

Kamil wrote:LOL that's too funny especially the last guy. I just wish I knew forsure that hell isn't real. EVen if the odds are low, what scares me is we don't actually know. That's why I hope there is no afterlife. I find the idea of living and eventually just dying to be comfortable. Of course, it doesn't matter what I want, either it's true or it's not.
Look at it this way:
1. There's no evidence for the existence of a literal Hell.
2. The whole idea of it is illogical.
3. Nearly all modern images of Satan are derived from the Greek god Pan, not from the Bible. Perhaps it's fitting in your case that the word "panic," the sudden, uncontrollable fear that leads people into irrational behavior, derives from Pan's name.

These are all images of Pan...note that most spoiler tags are because the images are NSFW, children, or the easily shocked.
Illustration by Jean Baudoin, 1685
Spoiler:
Image


discovered in Pompeii
Spoiler:
Image


by "the Pan Painter," circa 480-450 BC
Spoiler:
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:27 am

Pan was just one satyr. Satyrs were the the embodiment of masculinity. Drinking, music, dancing and carousing, lust. All the things the Abrahamic religions and their puritan offspring call toxic, these days.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:31 am

Major Malfunction wrote:The other night I had a dream where I was fighting a giant lizard monster and all I had was a spear. It ran at me and opened its mouth to bite me, and I shoved the spear right down its {!#%@} throat upto my shoulder, and it bit my arm off. And I woke up.

I have awesome dreams. :)

Morphine does that to me too.
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:35 am

Opioids stop my dreams. But nicotine patches make them even more awesome!
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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:10 am

https://www.near-death.com/religion/bud ... hokyi.html

People always see what they expect to see. The reference above describes what Buddhists get from a near death experience. Very different to what a Christian gets. It all boils down to expectation.

We discussed this in the flying saucer alien thread. In times past, people saw witches, demons, trolls, hobgoblin etcetera. All the things their superstitions trained them to see. Today, people see alien space craft. None of it is real. All is what we expect.

If you look at medieval paintings of hell, you will see all the demons and torture described in those dreams. Those images are deeply ingrained in the minds of westerners, and it is not surprising that lots of people see them in dreams.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby TJrandom » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 am

In my dreams I sometimes still see my first girlfriend and we have a grand old time, but surely it would be hell if my wife of over 40 years peeked in. :roll: :oops:

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:27 am

TJrandom wrote:In my dreams I sometimes still see my first girlfriend and we have a grand old time, but surely it would be hell if my wife of over 40 years peeked in. :roll: :oops:

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Kamil » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://www.near-death.com/religion/buddhism/lingza-chokyi.html

People always see what they expect to see. The reference above describes what Buddhists get from a near death experience. Very different to what a Christian gets. It all boils down to expectation.

We discussed this in the flying saucer alien thread. In times past, people saw witches, demons, trolls, hobgoblin etcetera. All the things their superstitions trained them to see. Today, people see alien space craft. None of it is real. All is what we expect.

If you look at medieval paintings of hell, you will see all the demons and torture described in those dreams. Those images are deeply ingrained in the minds of westerners, and it is not surprising that lots of people see them in dreams.


That's interesting. Now I am kind of at a dead end. Even though many skeptics just laugh hell off, it's hard for me to do so because I was indoctrinated at an early age and some how I keep getting this nagging fear. I have wanted to let go of religion. I believe in evolution, much of the Bible doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think the idea that religion was man made with ideas of heaven and hell used to control populations is plausible. However, I have seen many hellish stories in NDEs and dreams and I have seen many videos where people claim Jesus talks to them. What scares me most is their consistency. It is these that bring me back to my initial belief system. Should I believe due to fear or should I write these experiences off as either hallucinations, lies, or dreams? This is where I am stuck.

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Aztexan » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:03 pm

The human mind is the scariest place in the universe. That's why I would never spend the night alone in a supposed haunted house. Not because I'm afraid of ghosts, which don't exist, but because my imagination would kill me wondering that every little thing that goes bump in the night is an axe-murderer or some hideous creature that only exists in my mind is coming for me.

These consistent stories and themes that scare you and these hellish recounting of demons and Jesus are nothing more than other people's imagination.

Don't be afraid of what happens after you die. Be good to everyone (except trump and his supporters ;) ) and you should be ok.

Remember:
Don't be a dick
Be cool
Laugh
Stay away from religion or religious idea(l)s
Get a cat
Educate yourself
Love
Sleep
Don't be gullible
Cook

Occupy your mind and time with just a few of those suggestions and avoid the BS. There's plenty of {!#%@} on earth we know is real that is terrifying enough that we don't have to worry about gods and demons fighting over ownership of our souls after we die. Leave that {!#%@} to the movie makers and book writers.
{!#%@} trump!

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:26 pm

Kamil wrote:...some how I keep getting this nagging fear. [sic] What scares me most... [sic] Should I believe due to fear...
Kamil, your problem is not Hell; it's fear.

Fear is an evolutionary adaptive mechanism designed to enhance survival. When something provokes fear, our brains and bodies respond, preparing us to fight, flee, or freeze. Unfortunately, the fear response frequently occurs when we're not in danger...often in response to our ignorance. Fortunately, there are ways we can overcome these "false fears."

Be curious. Do some research, not on NDEs, but on death itself. Maybe it will help you to know that studies have shown that people who know they're going to die often have positive feelings about their own deaths.

Be brave. Bravery doesn't mean being without fear. Instead, it means moving forward in the face of that fear, in spite of it. Spend less time thinking about what might happen after you die, and more time enriching your life. Enjoy life, in spite of the fact that you will, one day, die.

Be realistic. For the sake of argument, what if there is a literal Hell? Are you such a horrible, selfish, nasty person that you would be consigned to eternal suffering? Have you murdered anyone lately? Lied to benefit yourself when it harmed others? Treated people poorly? Be honest: Do you deserve damnation? Or are you just a regular person doing his best to get through life without harming other people?

Be logical. Write down every single rational reason that comes to mind as to why you have nothing to fear. Include why you would not deserve damnation even if Hell existed. Include reasons why Hell doesn't exist. Any and all reasons. Be specific. Sometimes, when you see it in writing, especially your own handwriting, it seems more "real."

Be self-reliant. Instead of believing that you might be rewarded or punished in some next life for your actions in this life, develop your own ethical code with its own system of rewards and punishments. When you recognize a "good action" in yourself, reward it in some small way. When you recognize a "bad action," accept responsibility for it, apologize, make amends, etc. This requires being brutally honest with yourself, painful as that might be at times. But stick with it...it's worth it.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Does this give Hell more credence or is it still BS?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:20 pm

All good advice.

I spoke to a religious guy recently. He told me I was a sinner. I agreed. But I also told him that my sins were utterly trivial. If there was a hell, no self respecting deity would bother sending me there.


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