Defending Reincarnation

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Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:02 am

I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:03 am

No.............you go first. Pretend you've just been reincarnated. Is there anything new..........or same old {!#%@}?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No.............you go first. Pretend you've just been reincarnated. Is there anything new..........or same old {!#%@}?


When you say is there anything new or is everything the same, I don't know how to make a counter-argument from that. Can you explain what you mean?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:09 am

No. I haven't been reincarnated and don't have access to that additional knowledge.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:11 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real.


Step 1) Jim will set out his detailed working hypothesis for what reincarnation is.

(You will never do that Jim, because reincarnation doesn't make any sense)

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Gord » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:16 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.

I don't believe in reincarnation.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:18 am

Gord wrote: I don't believe in reincarnation.

Why???? Just because you have no memories of past lives yourself? Maybe you are Gen One of your line? I mean.........on all important issues, you should be patient. Wisdom ............ will come. Or you will just die, which is the same thing.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:21 am

Thinking Jim. The website you are posting on is a science based forum. Our motto is "Promoting science and critical thinking"

If you want to put forward your claim that reincarnation is real, you need to do so using the scientific method.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No. I haven't been reincarnated and don't have access to that additional knowledge.


Well, I'm not sure what to say to that, so I'll begin with different counter-evidence.

People say that if the Earth had at one point, say, a human population of one million, then at later point, that population grew to a billion, then that contradicts the idea of reincarnation because there aren't enough souls to incarnate into those extra nine hundred ninety nine million bodies. My objection to this is the possibility that a soul can be not incarnate, even in a non-human body, yet still exist. There could be billions and billions of souls, not incarnate, who more and more of incarnate into human bodies alongside the souls already incarnate.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Thinking Jim. The website you are posting on is a science based forum. Our motto is "Promoting science and critical thinking"

If you want to put forward your claim that reincarnation is real, you need to do so using the scientific method.


Well, is the scientific method the only way of getting closer to the truth on things? I was looking forward to doing this, do I really have to stop posting?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:26 am

ThinkingJim wrote:People say that if the Earth had at one point, say, a human population of one million, then at later point, that population grew to a billion, then that contradicts the idea of reincarnation because there aren't enough souls to incarnate into those extra nine hundred ninety nine million bodies. My objection to this is the possibility that a soul can be not incarnate, even in a non-human body, yet still exist. There could be billions and billions of souls, not incarnate, who more and more of incarnate into human bodies alongside the souls already incarnate.


What is hell is a soul? Can you define a soul for us? What is it made of? How does it remember things? Where does it reside between bodies?

However your biggest problem is genetics. All humans get their genes from their parents. The billion humans all got their genes from the earlier one million parents, didn't they?
:D

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:27 am

Gord wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.

I don't believe in reincarnation.


That's why I came here, because people who don't believe are the best at questioning the things they don't believe in.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:27 am

incarnate: Possessing or existing in bodily form. IE: cannot exist alongside souls already incarnate.

You got some basic language issues. How did the first soul come about?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:30 am

ThinkingJim wrote: Well, is the scientific method the only way of getting closer to the truth on things?


Yes. The scientific method, as used on this website, is the only way of establishing the most probable explanation for a claim. That's why you came to this specific forum, that uses the scientific method, right?

If you don't want to use science on a science based forum.....then why are you posting here?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:32 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: How did the first soul come about?


That's a good sensible question. If humans evolved from Homo Erectus is Jim claiming souls can swap between species?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote:People say that if the Earth had at one point, say, a human population of one million, then at later point, that population grew to a billion, then that contradicts the idea of reincarnation because there aren't enough souls to incarnate into those extra nine hundred ninety nine million bodies. My objection to this is the possibility that a soul can be not incarnate, even in a non-human body, yet still exist. There could be billions and billions of souls, not incarnate, who more and more of incarnate into human bodies alongside the souls already incarnate.


What is hell is a soul? Can you define a soul for us? What is it made of? How does it remember things? Where does it reside between bodies?

However your biggest problem is genetics. All humans get their genes from their parents. The billion humans all got their genes from the earlier one million parents, didn't they?
:D


First, I can not truly define what a soul is because I have never studied it, if it exists. But my definition would be the consciousness of a person. What is it made of? I can not really answer that. How does it remember things? Also can't answer. Where does it reside between bodies? On a plane of existence with a higher rate of vibration than ours, supposedly.

Matthew Ellard wrote:However your biggest problem is genetics. All humans get their genes from their parents. The billion humans all got their genes from the earlier one million parents, didn't they? [/color] :D


Why is genetics a problem?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:38 am

Thanks Matt. I'm giving you (an open bet) about 3 hours to tell us who Jim really is? ............... as he clearly hasn't started to think yet.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:39 am

Ahhhhh.......the constant "why" to every answer. No learning here.

in most imaginariums, soul = consciousness.

So basic..........you should go away.

((strike thru not working on the = symbol. My own imaginarium?))
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:incarnate: Possessing or existing in bodily form. IE: cannot exist alongside souls already incarnate.


I'm sorry, I don't follow.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How did the first soul come about?


I don't know.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:43 am

see above.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ahhhhh.......the constant "why" to every answer. No learning here.

in most imaginariums, soul = consciousness.

So basic..........you should go away.

((strike thru not working on the = symbol. My own imaginarium?))


I was just trying to understand his assertion.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: How did the first soul come about?


That's a good sensible question. If humans evolved from Homo Erectus is Jim claiming souls can swap between species?


Who says they can't?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:48 am

ThinkingJim wrote:First, I can not truly define what a soul is because I have never studied it, if it exists.
Well that ends your opening post. You are basing your reincarnation hypothesis, specifically on a thing called souls that you cant even define.

Claim :
"I can go faster than the speed of light if I use a thingamajig."
"What's a thingamajig."
"I have no idea"




ThinkingJim wrote:Why is genetics a problem?
1) Your brain is defined by your genes that you can trace back to your parents. How in your working hypothesis does reincarnation take over, modify or change the genetic structure.

2) Humans evolved from earlier species 195,000 year ago. We have different genes. Where does the first human soul come from? Are you saying it came from Homo Erectus 195,000 year ago?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:49 am

Only you talk about "it" at all. The inference you present is that they can. Your basis for this is?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:53 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: If humans evolved from Homo Erectus is Jim claiming souls can swap between species?
ThinkingJim wrote:Who says they can't?


I did. You now have a huge problem and are claiming souls can keep going backwards to our earlier common ancestors.
Tulerpeton.jpg
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:55 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:see above.


You mean how do souls go from incarnating in humans like Homo Erectus to Homo sapiens? What reason is there to believe a soul can't? Some believers in reincarnation posit that a soul can reincarnate from "lower" species.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: If humans evolved from Homo Erectus is Jim claiming souls can swap between species?
ThinkingJim wrote:Who says they can't?


I did. You now have a huge problem and are claiming souls can keep going backwards to our earlier common ancestors. Tulerpeton.jpg


My belief is that they start from lower kingdoms of life and go higher. But that is not what I'm trying to defend.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Matt. I'm giving you (an open bet) about 3 hours to tell us who Jim really is? ............... as he clearly hasn't started to think yet.


To be honest, I don't like my username either.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:59 am

Isn't it standard christian orthodoxy that there are unlimited souls floating in the ether just waiting for someone to be baptized so they can be implanted "Day of the Trifids" style? You can't disprove it.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote:First, I can not truly define what a soul is because I have never studied it, if it exists.
Well that ends your opening post. You are basing your reincarnation hypothesis, specifically on a thing called souls that you cant even define.

Claim :
"I can go faster than the speed of light if I use a thingamajig."
"What's a thingamajig."
"I have no idea"




ThinkingJim wrote:Why is genetics a problem?
1) Your brain is defined by your genes that you can trace back to your parents. How in your working hypothesis does reincarnation take over, modify or change the genetic structure.

2) Humans evolved from earlier species 195,000 year ago. We have different genes. Where does the first human soul come from? Are you saying it came from Homo Erectus 195,000 year ago?


Okay, sorry for another why question, but why do genes mean a soul can't incarnate into another species?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:06 am

Its YOUR imagination in play. What kind of soul is it you don't know about?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote: Well, is the scientific method the only way of getting closer to the truth on things?


Yes. The scientific method, as used on this website, is the only way of establishing the most probable explanation for a claim. That's why you came to this specific forum, that uses the scientific method, right?

If you don't want to use science on a science based forum.....then why are you posting here?


I wanted skeptics, who question things, to throw their objections at the claim of reincarnation so I can defend it, to see if it can be taken down. So I typed in skeptic forum in the search engine and this is one of the sites that came up.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:10 am

As Matt said: defending starts by defining.

Your turn.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:11 am

ThinkingJim wrote: My belief is that they (souls) start from lower kingdoms of life and go higher. .
Two seconds ago you said you didn't know what a soul was? What changed? :D

So are you saying a paramecium has a soul? So how do you know that you don't have the soul of a reincarnated paramecium?
paramecium.jpg


ThinkingJim wrote: ...but that's not what I'm trying to defend
You seem very reluctant to set out any working hypothesis that you pretend to be defending. Set out your working hypothesis now.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:13 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I wanted skeptics, who question things, to throw their objections at the claim of reincarnation .......
We can't debate against your fuzzy changing thoughts.

Set out your working hypothesis for reincarnation

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its YOUR imagination in play. What kind of soul is it you don't know about?



Its YOUR imagination in play - I don't know what you mean by that. No offense Bobbo, but I seem to be unable to understand a lot of what you're saying, could you simplify for me?

What kind of soul is it you don't know about? - The common idea of a soul I guess.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:16 am

Define soul. Make sure its not confused with consciousness.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote: My belief is that they (souls) start from lower kingdoms of life and go higher. .
Two seconds ago you said you didn't know what a soul was? What changed? :D

So are you saying a paramecium has a soul? So how do you know that you don't have the soul of a reincarnated paramecium?
paramecium.jpg

ThinkingJim wrote: ...but that's not what I'm trying to defend
You seem very reluctant to set out any working hypothesis that you pretend to be defending. Set out your working hypothesis now.


Alright, I'll try to set out a hypothesis:

If reincarnation is true, then all mundane explanations will fail to explain the best case of a phenomenon where memories of a past life are later verified in the real world.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:20 am

ThinkingJim wrote:What kind of soul is it you don't know about? - The common idea of a soul I guess.

Set out all the "common" characteristics of a soul and start watching the contradictions pop up.

Where do you think souls reside between bodies?

How do souls pass through walls (can pass through matter) but can take over another bodies mind ( must interfere with matter)?

How do souls carry information if they are immaterial?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:22 am

ThinkingJim wrote:Alright, I'll try to set out a hypothesis:
You will be the first person, out of many who ever got that far.......good luck

How to Write a Hypothesis
http://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Hypothesis


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