Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:43 am

sayer wrote:What is an 'existential space'? I suppose what we're talking about, and what this whole thread is really about, is consciousness. Perhaps I can define 'existential space' as 'the space which contains everything which exists'.


So that would mean that all people who are currently alive occupy the same "existential space", yes? And yet you don't claim that you are me or that I am you, nor do you claim that you are having my experience through me or vice-versa, correct? So how do you figure that occupying the same "existential space" as someone who will be born after you die is grounds to say that they will be you reincarnated?

The main argument against my idea this far has been - but if the self doesn't continue, then it's not you at all! It is important to note that there is no self really.


Then you agree that you cannot actually be reincarnated?

From this perspective there is of course no ego that would survive death and go on to being the next person. But what I'm saying is, perhaps the ego was never the truth about you in the first place.


So in effect you are destroying the self in order to save it. That seems a tad counterproductive.

You are, in fact, the universe - and it is temporarily experiencing itself as this person, in my case called Sayer.


No, I am a subset of the universe experiencing a larger subset of the universe from a limited perspective. Your claim is based on a combination of a Fallacy of Equivocation and a Fallacy of Division.

I AM the stuff of existence; energy, or vibration, or matter or whatever oh want to call it. Existence is me.


You are made of the stuff of existence. Existence may be you, but it does not necessarily follow that you are Existence.

Now existence has manifested itself once as this consciousness. But after my death I will be freed from the illusion of being separate and instead of there being an individual me, I will be EVERYTHING (which I actually already was, I'd just forgotten due to the nature of subjective consciousness).


You will no more be everything than a raindrop will be the ocean after it hits the ocean's surface. The substance of the raindrop is dispersed into the ocean, but the necessary components of a raindrop are substance and format, so once the raindrop merges with the ocean and loses its raindrop format, it is no longer the raindrop nor has it become the ocean.

My question is that if I'm Everything and I was not conscious until I became Sayer, why would I return afterwards to my state of being Everything and never again be conscious?? Why can I only be conscious once??


You're not "Everything" and you never were. "You" are a part of everything, and "you" are not on the same ontological level as the universe itself, therefore "you" cannot partake of its existence after "you" die.

Get a feel for what I mean. You are conscious now and you were once not conscious; that means that being once unconscious, you can become conscious.


You did not become conscious, the universe gave rise to a consciousness-capable organism which in turn gave rise to you as a person.

You can do it once, as the person you are now, and you can do it again, as someone else!


You can't have your self and deny it too, sayer.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Hmmm... "External Oblivion or Incarceration?"
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Flash » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:22 pm

Hip, hip, hurrah...Oblivion! :good:
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:50 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
sayer wrote:What is an 'existential space'? I suppose what we're talking about, and what this whole thread is really about, is consciousness. Perhaps I can define 'existential space' as 'the space which contains everything which exists'.


So that would mean that all people who are currently alive occupy the same "existential space", yes? And yet you don't claim that you are me or that I am you, nor do you claim that you are having my experience through me or vice-versa, correct? So how do you figure that occupying the same "existential space" as someone who will be born after you die is grounds to say that they will be you reincarnated?

The main argument against my idea this far has been - but if the self doesn't continue, then it's not you at all! It is important to note that there is no self really.


Then you agree that you cannot actually be reincarnated?

From this perspective there is of course no ego that would survive death and go on to being the next person. But what I'm saying is, perhaps the ego was never the truth about you in the first place.


So in effect you are destroying the self in order to save it. That seems a tad counterproductive.

You are, in fact, the universe - and it is temporarily experiencing itself as this person, in my case called Sayer.


No, I am a subset of the universe experiencing a larger subset of the universe from a limited perspective. Your claim is based on a combination of a Fallacy of Equivocation and a Fallacy of Division.

I AM the stuff of existence; energy, or vibration, or matter or whatever oh want to call it. Existence is me.


You are made of the stuff of existence. Existence may be you, but it does not necessarily follow that you are Existence.

Now existence has manifested itself once as this consciousness. But after my death I will be freed from the illusion of being separate and instead of there being an individual me, I will be EVERYTHING (which I actually already was, I'd just forgotten due to the nature of subjective consciousness).


You will no more be everything than a raindrop will be the ocean after it hits the ocean's surface. The substance of the raindrop is dispersed into the ocean, but the necessary components of a raindrop are substance and format, so once the raindrop merges with the ocean and loses its raindrop format, it is no longer the raindrop nor has it become the ocean.

My question is that if I'm Everything and I was not conscious until I became Sayer, why would I return afterwards to my state of being Everything and never again be conscious?? Why can I only be conscious once??


You're not "Everything" and you never were. "You" are a part of everything, and "you" are not on the same ontological level as the universe itself, therefore "you" cannot partake of its existence after "you" die.

Get a feel for what I mean. You are conscious now and you were once not conscious; that means that being once unconscious, you can become conscious.


You did not become conscious, the universe gave rise to a consciousness-capable organism which in turn gave rise to you as a person.

You can do it once, as the person you are now, and you can do it again, as someone else!


You can't have your self and deny it too, sayer.



You're essentially arguing that "the wave is not the ocean, because the wave is a subset of the ocean".

There's no difference. There is no such division. We wrap a human concept around the wave and conceptualise it as a subset of the larger ocean which has a transient existence on the shore, before disappearing back into the sea.

Outside of the human mind, there is no 'ocean' and 'wave' division. They're the exact same thing. The ocean 'waves' but waves are not really a separate division of the ocean or a subset of it, they're more just a description of its action.

The universe in a similar manner 'consciousnesses' but there is no such division as you've created. The 'you' who you imagine to be a 'subset' or 'component' of the universe, simply is the universe.

Minus concepts, it's all one thing.

You argued that once the raindrop hits the sea, it is not really the whole sea because the things which made up the raindrop are scattered but still separate.

What's the sea then? Its billions of such components which have been recycled through billions of such forms. In that case there is no sea at all! It's just billions of raindrops! But... doesn't mean that there is no sea AND there is no separate raindrop? It's all one giant recycling energy form?

Yes.

Any system is made out of its components - and that means that you can't describe one component as the system. I am not one cell in my body. But if I zoom in... I'm not any of the specific cells at all; I'm nowhere to be found in there. 'You' is just the whole configuration of energy; it's a description of all the parts interacting.

But each part has already belonged to a different component! So what I am has already been billions of other things...

So all that I am made of is not me?
And I'm just a description of the interacting components?
But all of the components are constantly changing?
So there is no consistent me at all?
Then who am I?
Where does the wave end and the ocean start?
Where do we draw the boundary between self and environment?
Is there one, or is it a temporary illusion?
Is there any consistent self?

I know Matthew Ellis was arguing for ages that he studied anthropology and the self arises from the frontal lobes but that's missing the point.

Yes there is a sense of self but is it more than a temporary illusion, and is it the truth about you?

And if there's no self at all, then what does that suggest?

Where does one life begin and another start?
Was your birth really the beginning and will your death really be the end, or are you participating in a much bigger story?
And is the participant at all separate from the story or are they inseparable?

Mind-bending stuff

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:27 pm

Stuff of bent minds... :roll:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:06 pm

sayer wrote: I know Matthew Ellard was arguing for ages that he studied anthropology and the self arises from the frontal lobes but that's missing the point.
Nope. It simply means you don't understand the evolution of the frontal lobes and their direct correlation to the indicators of evolving human consciousness. It is that simple.

When do you claim human consciousness arose? Was it just in modern homo sapiens? What about h. erectus? For that matter, what about when complex tool use and communication arose to explain tool use in h.habilis?
h habilis.jpg


sayer wrote:Where does one life begin and another start?
In sexually reproducing life forms, it is when fertilisation occurs introducing a unique new combination of male and female genes from both partners. That's how evolution works, mixing up different genes from the gene pool. Didn't you know? :D

sayer wrote:Mind-bending stuff
No. It's high school biology. :lol:
evolution frontal lobes.jpg
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:18 am

[quote="Matthew Ellard"]When do you claim human consciousness arose? Was it just in modern homo sapiens? What about h. erectus? For that matter, what about when complex tool use and communication arose to explain tool use in h.habilis?
Off Topic
The one that always blew my mind was the bright boy who invented the bow drill. Grasping the concept that it wasn't the "bit" that did the drilling, but the sand. BOOM! That boy was conscious.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm

sayer wrote:
You're essentially arguing that "the wave is not the ocean, because the wave is a subset of the ocean".


Correct. The wave is an event that requires the ocean as a precondition in order to occur.

There's no difference. There is no such division.


Yes there is, the wave is a movement on the ocean's surface. If there was no difference then we could not meaningfully talk about "waves" and "oceans" in the first place.

The universe in a similar manner 'consciousnesses' but there is no such division as you've created. The 'you' who you imagine to be a 'subset' or 'component' of the universe, simply is the universe.


This is like saying that the money in your bank account is equivalent to the money supply of the entire economy.

Minus concepts, it's all one thing.


Why would we get rid of concepts? We wouldn't have concepts if they didn't have some degree of concordance with reality, and getting rid of concepts makes it impossible for us to meaningfully talk or think about anything. At this point, it seems like your argument is that reincarnation is real just so long as we avoid thinking and logic altogether!

You argued that once the raindrop hits the sea, it is not really the whole sea because the things which made up the raindrop are scattered but still separate.

What's the sea then? Its billions of such components which have been recycled through billions of such forms.


The sea is a large mass of water. While its substance may be the same as that of the raindrop, it's format is not. Therefore, the sea is not the same thing as the raindrop.

Any system is made out of its components - and that means that you can't describe one component as the system. I am not one cell in my body. But if I zoom in... I'm not any of the specific cells at all; I'm nowhere to be found in there.


That's because you're zooming in the wrong direction. "You" are something that your body does. That is to say, you are an emergent process of your body.

'You' is just the whole configuration of energy; it's a description of all the parts interacting.


No, "you" is a particular set of processes that the body gives rise to under the right conditions.

But each part has already belonged to a different component! So what I am has already been billions of other things...


So what? It doesn't mean that you are the same as, or partake in the conscious experience of the chicken whose poo fertilized the corn you ate.

So all that I am made of is not me?
And I'm just a description of the interacting components?
But all of the components are constantly changing?
So there is no consistent me at all?


You are a dynamic process. Although the components which give rise to "you" might change, so long as the renewing components continue to have the same relationships to one and other then the dynamic process known as "you" will continue.
Where does the wave end and the ocean start?


The wave is a movement upon the ocean's surface. The wave does not start where the ocean ends, rather the former occurs within the latter but not vice versa.

Where do we draw the boundary between self and environment?


Wherever considerations of functionality compel us to.


Is there one, or is it a temporary illusion?


Depends what you mean by "illusion".

Is there any consistent self?


Does there have to be?

And if there's no self at all, then what does that suggest?


A temporary emergent self is not the same as no self, it's just a different type of self from the preconception of an eternal fundamental self.

Was your birth really the beginning and will your death really be the end, or are you participating in a much bigger story?


Participating in a much bigger story does not equate to being part of the story from beginning to end.

And is the participant at all separate from the story or are they inseparable?


I've already pointed out that the participant is a sub-story within the story, but again that does not mean the participant sub-story can be equated to the whole story or to any other sub-story within the whole story.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:44 pm

lawyer's spirit guide appears as a homeless man ...later gives him info on life and death and asked him to write a book on it...took him on out of body travels...he also met the council who oversee reincarnation...met dolphins and whale on water planet that keep telepathic communication with the ones on Earth.... https://youtu.be/l7PYFrCdC9I
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:57 pm

gorgeous wrote:lawyer's spirit guide appears as a homeless man ...later gives him info on life and death and asked him to write a book on it...took him on out of body travels...he also met the council who oversee reincarnation...met dolphins and whale on water planet that keep telepathic communication with the ones on Earth....


In this load of crap, a unemployed lawyer is trying to sell his three books concerning his astral travel adventures with a spirit homeless street person. They meet the alien council of wise ones who look after people on Earth.

Soooooo Gorgeous? Doesn't this book conflict with your claim "God" is real? This book says a council of wise one's runs Earth.

So which story is true? Your story or the book's story?
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:13 pm

council runs reincarnation
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:24 pm

gorgeous wrote:council runs reincarnation


But Gorgeous? That's in direct conflict to your other claims. :lol:

So Gorgeous? Who is in charge of Earth today according to your little stories? Is it
a) "God"
b) The "Illuminati"
c) The shape shifting reptiles
d) The secret "Council of Wisdom"

:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:20 pm

gorgeous wrote:lawyer's spirit guide appears as a homeless man ...later gives him info on life and death and asked him to write a book on it...took him on out of body travels...he also met the council who oversee reincarnation...met dolphins and whale on water planet that keep telepathic communication with the ones on Earth.... https://youtu.be/l7PYFrCdC9I


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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
sayer wrote:
You're essentially arguing that "the wave is not the ocean, because the wave is a subset of the ocean".


Correct. The wave is an event that requires the ocean as a precondition in order to occur.

There's no difference. There is no such division.


Yes there is, the wave is a movement on the ocean's surface. If there was no difference then we could not meaningfully talk about "waves" and "oceans" in the first place.

The universe in a similar manner 'consciousnesses' but there is no such division as you've created. The 'you' who you imagine to be a 'subset' or 'component' of the universe, simply is the universe.


This is like saying that the money in your bank account is equivalent to the money supply of the entire economy.

Minus concepts, it's all one thing.


Why would we get rid of concepts? We wouldn't have concepts if they didn't have some degree of concordance with reality, and getting rid of concepts makes it impossible for us to meaningfully talk or think about anything. At this point, it seems like your argument is that reincarnation is real just so long as we avoid thinking and logic altogether!

You argued that once the raindrop hits the sea, it is not really the whole sea because the things which made up the raindrop are scattered but still separate.

What's the sea then? Its billions of such components which have been recycled through billions of such forms.


The sea is a large mass of water. While its substance may be the same as that of the raindrop, it's format is not. Therefore, the sea is not the same thing as the raindrop.

Any system is made out of its components - and that means that you can't describe one component as the system. I am not one cell in my body. But if I zoom in... I'm not any of the specific cells at all; I'm nowhere to be found in there.


That's because you're zooming in the wrong direction. "You" are something that your body does. That is to say, you are an emergent process of your body.

'You' is just the whole configuration of energy; it's a description of all the parts interacting.


No, "you" is a particular set of processes that the body gives rise to under the right conditions.

But each part has already belonged to a different component! So what I am has already been billions of other things...


So what? It doesn't mean that you are the same as, or partake in the conscious experience of the chicken whose poo fertilized the corn you ate.

So all that I am made of is not me?
And I'm just a description of the interacting components?
But all of the components are constantly changing?
So there is no consistent me at all?


You are a dynamic process. Although the components which give rise to "you" might change, so long as the renewing components continue to have the same relationships to one and other then the dynamic process known as "you" will continue.
Where does the wave end and the ocean start?


The wave is a movement upon the ocean's surface. The wave does not start where the ocean ends, rather the former occurs within the latter but not vice versa.

Where do we draw the boundary between self and environment?


Wherever considerations of functionality compel us to.


Is there one, or is it a temporary illusion?


Depends what you mean by "illusion".

Is there any consistent self?


Does there have to be?

And if there's no self at all, then what does that suggest?


A temporary emergent self is not the same as no self, it's just a different type of self from the preconception of an eternal fundamental self.

Was your birth really the beginning and will your death really be the end, or are you participating in a much bigger story?


Participating in a much bigger story does not equate to being part of the story from beginning to end.

And is the participant at all separate from the story or are they inseparable?


I've already pointed out that the participant is a sub-story within the story, but again that does not mean the participant sub-story can be equated to the whole story or to any other sub-story within the whole story.


Consciousness always emerges from unconsciousness.

The whole universe was once unconscious, but is now conscious.

You cannot have consciousness unless there was unconsciousness prior to it. This must be true unless you want to argue for a soul.

After you are dead, there is only unconsciousness.

Leaving the potential for...

Being dead and not yet being conceived is the same thing. There is no you in both cases.

Every time there's a self, there was no self before it.

After you are dead, there is no self.

Leaving the potential for...

Every time you make a sandwhich, there was no sandwhich prior to that occurrence. After you have eaten the sandwhich, once again, there is no sandwhich. Leaving the potential for...

A different consciousness? A different self? A different sandwhich?

There's no continuity, is there. It would be a different person, so reincarnation still isn't the case...

But - there is no continuity even DURING life. Second to second you are not the same person. After seven years you are actually PHYSICALLY not the same person.

You are reincarnated every single nanosecond. Moment to moment, you exist in new configurations and the past you leaves imprints on the you who comes next.

My seven year old self is gone but I have his memories.

The world will similarly carry the imprint of Sayer even once Sayer is gone. Sayer will biodegrade back into the Earth. The universe continues to do its thing.

Birth was not the start and death was not the end. Sayer was a temporary incarnation of the one process that is reality. Sayer was one chapter in the eternal story.

That chapter was made up of sentences.
Those sentences were made up of words, which were new every second. Each word was made up of sequences of changing letters.

Every cell inside Sayer was constantly dying and being replaced. The self is never the same, the body is never the same, the mind is never the same. The process never ends.

Once I die it is not the end of anything at all. It's just the start of another chapter where the cells become nutrient rich earth and the earth becomes plants which feed into more humans and blossom into more lives and more consciousnesses.

There's no continuous you, there's no individual life which has a start and an end - it's an infinite energetic dance, and that's the beauty of it. It's ONE THING.

There is no 'your consciousness', there's just consciousness. And consciousness will spark and die and spark and die, cycling just like everything else in existence, dipping in and out between unconscious and brightly aware, alive states, from pre birth to life to death to prebirth again. Ad infinitum, potentially.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:33 pm

Reincarnation as a continuous self or soul is not the point - there's never a continuous self even within one lifetime.

These things however seem to be facts and would suggest that consciousness is not PERMANENTLY terminated after death:

1. Consciousness comes from unconsciousness, and unconsciousness is a valid state (you've been unconscious before if you've fainted, I'm guessing) - agree or disagree?


2. There is unconsciousness both before birth and after death, as in both cases there is no functioning brain to speak of - agree or disagree?

3. Before life and after life are the same thing, because in both cases there is no You to speak of - agree or disagree?

4. This would suggest that 'after life' holds the potential for life, just like 'before conception' does - agree or disagree?

"But Sayer, that makes sense, but if birth occurred again it wouldn't be YOU - it would be someone else!"

There was never a continuous you in the first place. Every second you're someone else.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm

sayer wrote:Reincarnation as a continuous self or soul is not the point - there's never a continuous self even within one lifetime.
Disagree. Memory maintains continuity of self during one's lifetime.
sayer wrote:These things however seem to be facts and would suggest that consciousness is not PERMANENTLY terminated after death:
Seem to be facts? There's no grey area with facts. Something is either factual or not.
sayer wrote:1. Consciousness comes from unconsciousness, and unconsciousness is a valid state (you've been unconscious before if you've fainted, I'm guessing) - agree or disagree?
If you mean consciousness in the sense of being awake, then it doesn't always follow unconsciousness. People do die in their sleep. If you mean consciousness in the sense of the conscious experience, then your statement is also untrue, because the conscious experience stems from interconnected neural activity. It is possible to be awake (conscious) and have no conscious experience.
sayer wrote:2. There is unconsciousness both before birth and after death, as in both cases there is no functioning brain to speak of - agree or disagree?
Disagree. Before birth, the fetus has a functioning brain. After death, no one knows what happens, so any discussion is pure speculation without factual evidence.
sayer wrote:3. Before life and after life are the same thing, because in both cases there is no You to speak of - agree or disagree?
Disagree. I can conclude there was no "me" to speak of before my birth, because there are no memories in my conscious experience of that time. But I have no idea what will happen to "me" after this body expires.
sayer wrote:4. This would suggest that 'after life' holds the potential for life, just like 'before conception' does - agree or disagree?
Disagree. Again, you're making comparisons without any factual foundation.
sayer wrote:"But Sayer, that makes sense, but if birth occurred again it wouldn't be YOU - it would be someone else!"

There was never a continuous you in the first place. Every second you're someone else.
In this lifetime, as I said, memory maintains the continuity of "me" and "myself."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 pm

sayer wrote:... Every second you're someone else.

Oh good - we'll get some peace soon, then.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:01 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: :lol: evolution frontal lobes.jpg

Laughing at head-slopes is derogatory against the cranially inclined!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:26 am

sayer wrote:There's no continuity, is there. It would be a different person, so reincarnation still isn't the case...

But - there is no continuity even DURING life. Second to second you are not the same person. After seven years you are actually PHYSICALLY not the same person.


There actually is continuity, but it is the causal continuity of a dynamic coherent system (i.e. the person). To say that you are not the same person because the material components that compose you eventually get replaced is a Fallacy of Composition. When it comes to the continuity of "you" it is not the permanence of the building blocks themselves which is important, it is the relationships between those building blocks which is important.

The world will similarly carry the imprint of Sayer even once Sayer is gone.


How do you know this? If you burn a Charles Dickens novel and reduce it to ash, is it in any way meaningful to say that the world will continue to "carry the imprint" of the story that was written on its pages?

Birth was not the start and death was not the end. Sayer was a temporary incarnation of the one process that is reality. Sayer was one chapter in the eternal story.

That chapter was made up of sentences.
Those sentences were made up of words, which were new every second. Each word was made up of sequences of changing letters.


Sayer might be one chapter in the eternal story, but that does not mean that we can equate Sayer with the whole story or any other chapter in the story.

Every cell inside Sayer was constantly dying and being replaced. The self is never the same, the body is never the same, the mind is never the same. The process never ends.


What "process" exactly? If you are talking about the process of causality itself, then I agree. But in the context of a discussion about reincarnation, this claim isn't particularly meaningful either.

Once I die it is not the end of anything at all.


...apart from your memories, volition, biological activity, personality, and unique subjective experience of reality.

It's just the start of another chapter where the cells become nutrient rich earth and the earth becomes plants which feed into more humans and blossom into more lives and more consciousnesses.


That's nice. Platitudinous and inconsequential, but nice.

There's no continuous you, there's no individual life which has a start and an end - it's an infinite energetic dance, and that's the beauty of it. It's ONE THING.


Do you have all the money in the world sitting in your personal bank account yet?

There is no 'your consciousness', there's just consciousness. And consciousness will spark and die and spark and die, cycling just like everything else in existence, dipping in and out between unconscious and brightly aware, alive states, from pre birth to life to death to prebirth again. Ad infinitum, potentially.


So what?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:11 am

sayer wrote:Reincarnation as a continuous self or soul is not the point - there's never a continuous self even within one lifetime.

These things however seem to be facts and would suggest that consciousness is not PERMANENTLY terminated after death:

1. Consciousness comes from unconsciousness, and unconsciousness is a valid state (you've been unconscious before if you've fainted, I'm guessing) - agree or disagree?


2. There is unconsciousness both before birth and after death, as in both cases there is no functioning brain to speak of - agree or disagree?

3. Before life and after life are the same thing, because in both cases there is no You to speak of - agree or disagree?

4. This would suggest that 'after life' holds the potential for life, just like 'before conception' does - agree or disagree?

"But Sayer, that makes sense, but if birth occurred again it wouldn't be YOU - it would be someone else!"

There was never a continuous you in the first place. Every second you're someone else.


I think I can see the underlying problem here. You want reincarnation to be real, but you know that any specific and testable hypothesis you advance about it will most likely be proven wrong. You therefore face a tradeoff between having a hypothesis which is too vague to be meaningful yet impossible to disprove on one hand, and a meaningful specific hypothesis which is susceptible to being (and likely to be) disproven on the other. So instead of taking the hard and high-risk path of trying to develop a specific hypothesis that is plausible, you are trying to find the 'sweet spot' on an implicitly presumed spectrum between vague/untestable and specific/testable. You have come to this skeptic's forum to test where exactly that sweet spot is. Unfortunately your approach is fundamentally flawed, because there is no such sweet spot and attempting to find it is an act of intellectual dishonesty.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:46 am

Here, I've posted these videos before, but I'll post them again: The philosophy of identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TFCMK4i2lo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqDnLNRuSc
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"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:34 am

sayer wrote:
Was I making more sense that time?


You can phase it anyhow you like but in general you will find that you are asking the wrong people, you will make as much sense as a hit on the head with a twelve pound lump hammer. Their brains are not wired as such that they can differentiate between what is real and what is merely a dream. Like parrots they continue to ask for evidence without realising they themselves are the proof of everything. They are just too lazy to think for themselves. Although they recognise our mode of thought as mere programmed thinking they fail to see their own as such. No thinking or mode of thought whether conventional, metaphysical or philosophical can describe what is real. Nevertheless unless it's in a text book entitled conventional wisdom the will not entertain it. They are like children, the dummy must be sweet otherwise they will not suckle.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:11 am

You wish :lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:20 pm

Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:32 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.



Gawdenzilla Sama! Isn't it about time you got yourself a life?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:13 pm

So you've now descended, like all your ilk, Confidencia, into personal attack. Your lack of content has been exposed, your lack of intellect demonstrated. You'll now hang around like a bad smell for a while and, finally, go to the great dualist dustbin in the sky. Bye.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:37 pm

Poodle wrote:So you've now descended, like all your ilk, Confidencia, into personal attack. Your lack of content has been exposed, your lack of intellect demonstrated. You'll now hang around like a bad smell for a while and, finally, go to the great dualist dustbin in the sky. Bye.

Clarifidentia might hang around for a bit until the insults get too vile again and incur Pyrrhic action (or an announcement thereof). Which in turn will beget yet another re-incarnation of the same old same old sad old troll...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:01 pm

Poodle wrote:So you've now descended, like all your ilk, Confidencia, into personal attack. Your lack of content has been exposed, your lack of intellect demonstrated. You'll now hang around like a bad smell for a while and, finally, go to the great dualist dustbin in the sky. Bye.


Having another tantrum are we? Throwing your dummy out is one thing, continuing to throw wobblers like this one is another. You should consider carefully, you might end up falling out of your pram yourself with no possibility of getting back in it.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:22 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Poodle wrote:So you've now descended, like all your ilk, Confidencia, into personal attack. Your lack of content has been exposed, your lack of intellect demonstrated. You'll now hang around like a bad smell for a while and, finally, go to the great dualist dustbin in the sky. Bye.

Clarifidentia might hang around for a bit until the insults get too vile again and incur Pyrrhic action (or an announcement thereof). Which in turn will beget yet another re-incarnation of the same old same old sad old troll...


Nah, I'll just ignore you like I do Dr. Mathew (textbook) Ellard. Besides there's probably more brain activity in an amoeba than there is between the three of you. Good night and god bless scrim.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:27 pm

Night night, Confy. Don't let the bugs bite.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:49 pm

Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.



Gawdenzilla Sama! Isn't it about time you got yourself a life?

Oh, butt hurt much?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:53 am

Confidencia wrote: Nah, I'll just ignore you like I do Dr. Mathew (textbook) Ellard. Besides there's probably more brain activity in an amoeba than there is between the three of you. Good night and god bless scrim.


See you in two weeks when you come back with a new sock puppet name.

(You love coming here don't you? No one in the real world pays you any attention, so you keep coming back here)
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:34 am

Aww! No fair!

Why do you guys get all the ad hominems?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:36 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Aww! No fair!

Why do you guys get all the ad hominems?

I don't see why you couldn't add some homonyms. :mrgreen:
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:39 am

I don't want to just give them away.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:39 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.



Gawdenzilla Sama! Isn't it about time you got yourself a life?

Oh, butt hurt much?


It is not suppose to, after all it is your profile that is making the announcement that you have no life.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:53 am

Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.



Gawdenzilla Sama! Isn't it about time you got yourself a life?

Oh, butt hurt much?


It is not suppose to, after all it is your profile that is making the announcement that you have no life.

This is your first day here, isn't it?
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Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Confidencia » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:48 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
Poodle wrote:You wish :lol:


...that one day you will start thinking for yourself? Of course I do. I want nothing from you. As a matter of fact I wish you all the best.

And, my dear lamprey, you want from us or you'd {!#%@} right off and find people like you. There's a guy named Renfield waiting for you in Bedlam.



Gawdenzilla Sama! Isn't it about time you got yourself a life?

Oh, butt hurt much?


It is not suppose to, after all it is your profile that is making the announcement that you have no life.

This is your first day here, isn't it?


The first is the last, here is everywhere and now is always.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:13 pm

Do you often lecture through that picture window in your stomach?
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