Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:16 am

Poodle wrote: Hmmmmmmm ... Have you ever thought about the true identity of the entity known as Gorgeous?
Yes, but there's no real point. After five years of Gorgeous spamming the same 1970's Seth quotes on our forum, I put his activity down to dementia coupled with OCD. :D

Gorgeous claimed his father was an NSA officer in Germany, but the story made no sense ( I checked) and was probably another of his hallucinations. :D

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:31 pm

Poodle wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote:seth--------You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will....
Seth, the fictional alien, didn't reincarnate in any of the Seth stories. Did you forget again?

Come to think about it.....neither did Jane Roberts who wrote the Seth stories.
:lol:


Hmmmmmmm ... Have you ever thought about the true identity of the entity known as Gorgeous?


Hmmmmmm - Actually that might be more interesting than the original thread :lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:50 pm

sayer wrote:You : an existential state, either conscious and subjectively oriented as an individual, or unconscious and being Everything

I had to look up "existential state", and this is all I could find: https://xlinux.nist.gov/dads/HTML/existentlstt.html

Definition: A state in a nondeterministic Turing machine from which the machine accepts if any move leads to acceptance.

So I can't accept your definition because it isn't comprehensive.

Here, I looked up "comprehensive": https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... prehensive

Including or dealing with all or nearly all elements or aspects of something.


sayer wrote:Evidence : the idea that you have been born, and you therefore know that it is possible to go from a state of unconscious Everything non-localised non-personal oblivion, to a state of localised, individual, subjective consciousness.

That is a very very strange definition for "evidence". Can't we just stick with something simple, like this: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/evidence

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.


sayer wrote:Semantic error criticism: the idea that this understanding is an illusion produced by semantic tricks. This is not the case because, unless you want to argue for an afterlife, it MUST be true that there is nothingness before and after death. The concepts are simple enough that they cannot be misinterpreted or tricky, it is simply unconscious/ conscious, two states which we KNOW occur and which we KNOW happen during and after life.

I can't agree with any of that. Just to begin with, I suspect that all understanding is an illusion produced by semantics. Furthermore, there isn't "nothingness" before and after death -- I've seen dead things, and there wasn't "nothingness", there was dead things. That is literally not "nothingness" UNLESS you accept that death can be defined as "nothingness", which a definition that a lot of dictionaries give: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nothingness

the quality or state of being nothing: such as
a : nonexistence
b : utter insignificance
c : death
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:56 pm

sayer wrote:I don't think anyone even understands what I'm intending to say lol.

It became way over complicated.

At one point I wasn't conscious, now I'm conscious, and at another point I won't be conscious again.

At he previous point when I wasn't conscious, I became conscious.

So at a later point when I'm not conscious, I presume it's possible to do this birth and lifetime thing again.

That makes complete sense to me.

The more one tries to analyse it the more paradoxical it becomes, but otherwise, if you don't stuff it full of other philosophical concepts, which make it harder and harder to get your head around (and this is because you can't comprehend non existence), the basic logic feels pretty solid.

Let's try that with a car.

At one point the car wouldn't run (because it hadn't been constructed yet). Then it could run (after it had been constructed). At some point, the car could no longer run (because it had been scrapped in a car compactor).

Once the car has been destroyed, what makes you presume it could possibly ever run again?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
sayer wrote:Does no one here appreciate the idea that the ego is the illusory product of your neurology,

The ego is an evolved cognitive phenomena that evolved in the physical brain of hominids starting about 2.1 million years ago with homo habilis. Although the physical evolution as bi-peds started with Australopithecus, Australopithecus still had the brain (frontal lobes) of a monkey.

You claim that ego is "illusory" is not true as it is hard wired on your DNA.



Every major spiritual tradition, every modern spiritual speaker including secular and atheist and even sceptic spiritual teachers state that the ego is an illusion.

That's pretty much established fact right now.

You just demonstrated it with "it's hard wired into your DNA". Into who's DNA? Who's the you who's separate from the DNA? There is no you, it's just an illusion of ownership.

Read 'Waking Up' by Sam Harris, it's a must-read. The idea that the ego is an illusion isn't woo, some of the worlds hardest rational and scientific thinkers agree on that.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waking-Up-Sear ... 1784160024

Come on dude

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:20 pm

Sayer, this concept of an "existential space" is a critical element of your argument. Are you going to elaborate on it?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:The ego is an evolved cognitive phenomena that evolved in the physical brain of hominids starting about 2.1 million years ago with homo habilis. Although the physical evolution as bi-peds started with Australopithecus, Australopithecus still had the brain (frontal lobes) of a monkey.

Your claim that ego is "illusory" is not true as it is hard wired on your DNA.
sayer wrote:Every major spiritual tradition, every modern spiritual speaker including secular and atheist and even sceptic spiritual teachers state that the ego is an illusion.
What ignorant fools they are then. I spent a year measuring the growth of frontal lobes in early hominids and can see the establishment of frontal lobes, where improving consciousness arose.

sayer wrote:That's pretty much established fact right now.
"Spiritual" philosophy is not a fact.

sayer wrote: Into who's DNA?
The homo sapiens gene pool. That's what defines your consciousness. DNA is a protein production template.

sayer wrote:Come on dude
No. I studied anthropological prehistory, (the evolution of humans) at uni. Get some facts to back up your claim next time....... dude.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:43 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sayer, this concept of an "existential space" is a critical element of your argument. Are you going to elaborate on it?


Well, alright.

But first the following has to be clarified - I was, of course, only ever speculating because I cannot know any more than the rest of you what comes after death.

That being said, I am enjoying exploring this line of thought and the idea still makes sense to me, so I will continue to elaborate.

What is an 'existential space'? I suppose what we're talking about, and what this whole thread is really about, is consciousness. Perhaps I can define 'existential space' as 'the space which contains everything which exists'.

Now that might be a pointless term because none of the things that don't exist, exist. So technically I just meant 'existence'.

Is existence synonymous with consciousness? I know exactly why one would conclude 'no' to that, but if we're running with the evidence, the answer is - we have no idea because we're incapable of studying outside of consciousness because the very act of studying something means that it's IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. Argh! Now we're descending into materialism vs idealism.

I hope you all realise that this was doomed from the start to be a philosophy thread, because of course we can't study anything beyond our physical, living grasp, and death is as such beyond the reach of science. Perhaps.

Anyway, to continue this line of thought... what were really thinking about is 'what is the self'?

The main argument against my idea this far has been - but if the self doesn't continue, then it's not you at all! It is important to note that there is no self really. That's apparently become a key element of my argument. What are you really? Your body? Where does the body end and the environment begin? Are you the mind? But isn't that just a reactive automatic voice? Is there actually a ghost in the machine 'self' running your mind and body, or do they actually run themselves, with your sense of self being an illusion that arises from their workings?

Is there a perceiver AND perceptions, or are there just perceptions? From this perspective there is of course no ego that would survive death and go on to being the next person. But what I'm saying is, perhaps the ego was never the truth about you in the first place.

You are, in fact, the universe - and it is temporarily experiencing itself as this person, in my case called Sayer. But I've been around long before I was born as Sayer, and I'll be around eternally afterwards - because whatever form I'm in, I AM the stuff of existence; energy, or vibration, or matter or whatever oh want to call it. Existence is me.

Now existence has manifested itself once as this consciousness. But after my death I will be freed from the illusion of being separate and instead of there being an individual me, I will be EVERYTHING (which I actually already was, I'd just forgotten due to the nature of subjective consciousness).

My question is that if I'm Everything and I was not conscious until I became Sayer, why would I return afterwards to my state of being Everything and never again be conscious?? Why can I only be conscious once??

This seems to continuously misinterpreted. Get a feel for what I mean. You are conscious now and you were once not conscious; that means that being once unconscious, you can become conscious. You can do it once, as the person you are now, and you can do it again, as someone else! You're energy, you're the universe; just like the ocean waves, you 'people'.

MAN THAT GOT DEEP :P

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:The ego is an evolved cognitive phenomena that evolved in the physical brain of hominids starting about 2.1 million years ago with homo habilis. Although the physical evolution as bi-peds started with Australopithecus, Australopithecus still had the brain (frontal lobes) of a monkey.

Your claim that ego is "illusory" is not true as it is hard wired on your DNA.
sayer wrote:Every major spiritual tradition, every modern spiritual speaker including secular and atheist and even sceptic spiritual teachers state that the ego is an illusion.
What ignorant fools they are then. I spent a year measuring the growth of frontal lobes in early hominids and can see the establishment of frontal lobes, where improving consciousness arose.

sayer wrote:That's pretty much established fact right now.
"Spiritual" philosophy is not a fact.

sayer wrote: Into who's DNA?
The homo sapiens gene pool. That's what defines your consciousness. DNA is a protein production template.

sayer wrote:Come on dude
No. I studied anthropological prehistory, (the evolution of humans) at uni. Get some facts to back up your claim next time....... dude.



And very indignant you are too!

You have not proved that there is a self. You've proved that there are frontal lobes capable of producing the illusion of a self.

Think about it, what is a 'self' exactly? What actually IS it? Are you it? Are you your frontal lobes? Who's the 'you' that's the frontal lobes, who's the ghost in the machine?

This is what I meant by 'the ego is an illusion'.

You misinterpreted because, and this is fine because it is the trend of many academics and sceptics, you've made a paradigm error. That wasn't a scientific or factual term, not something conceptual or for the mind. I'm trying to point to the direct experience of the fact that there isn't a PERCEIVER WHO IS PERCEIVING PERCEPTIONS. THERE ARE JUST PERCEPTIONS.

*ahem*.

Read Sam Harris's book, you know he's trustworthy when it comes to science and logic. He's trying to show you that spirituality is not BS and it doesn't mean New Age beliefs. There is something in those ancient spiritual traditions, and it's for secular people too - if you don't believe me, I think you can even hear it for free on YouTube.

You must have heard of Harris, I think you have. He is the sceptics God.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zP20eBfp2oM

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:59 pm

sayer wrote: You have not proved that there is a self. You've proved that there are frontal lobes capable of producing the illusion of a self.
What complete crap. The conscious "self" has specifically evolved into the form it is. That is undeniable. It is simply an evolutionary advantage to allow better interaction and decision making in the environment.
sayer wrote: what is a 'self' exactly? What actually IS it? Are you it? Are you your frontal lobes? Who's the 'you' that's the frontal lobes, who's the ghost in the machine?
Human Consciousness is the name given to the large set of evolved neural activities that simultaneously occur in the brain.

When you watch a movie, you don't see 24 individual still photos every second. You see a continuous narrative. That's all consciousness is. An evolved advantage to assess all these sub processes simultaneously.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:04 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
sayer wrote: You have not proved that there is a self. You've proved that there are frontal lobes capable of producing the illusion of a self.
What complete crap. The conscious "self" has specifically evolved into the form it is. That is undeniable. It is simply an evolutionary advantage to allow better interaction and decision making in the environment.
sayer wrote: what is a 'self' exactly? What actually IS it? Are you it? Are you your frontal lobes? Who's the 'you' that's the frontal lobes, who's the ghost in the machine?
Human Consciousness is the name given to the large set of evolved neural activities that simultaneously occur in the brain.

When you watch a movie, you don't see 24 individual still photos every second. You see a continuous narrative. That's all consciousness is. An evolved advantage to assess all these sub processes simultaneously.



*facepalm*

Man, you're making the same paradigm error.

Drop the lens of hard- scientific academic thinking for a second. Let it go and re-assess. Did you bother to even follow the link?

"Spiritual philosophy is not fact."

If you take two deep breaths and continue to focus on your breathing, allowing your mind to become silent, your worrying and suffering alleviates. It's called meditation and it's proven to have multiple benefits.

That's a fact.
It's also a spiritual philosophy called 'Zen'.

Stretch your limbs and shake off the rigidness of academia my friend. It hardly matters what you studied and what academic accomplishments you can boast; you're a human being, there are spiritual truths which apply to all of us, and they are just as factual as anything else.

Open your mind a little, your brain won't fall out.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:10 am

Whatever sayer is saying is based on that there was a connected 'something' before the conscious ego self that calls itself sayer here existed, and that there will be a 'something' after his/her vessel expired.

There is not a shred of evidence for such a something, so all this musing seems merely based on hopeful wishful thinking and fear...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:20 am

sayer wrote:Drop the lens of hard- scientific academic thinking for a second.
No. I can't forget the hard science concerning the evolution of the consciousness which immediately falsifies your ridiculous claim. It's not my problem you have no knowledge about human evolution, organic chemistry or scientific evidence.


sayer wrote:If you take two deep breaths and continue to focus on your breathing, allowing your mind to become silent, your worrying and suffering alleviates. It's called meditation and it's proven to have multiple benefits.
I'm not suffering, nor worrying.....so that would be a complete waste of time.


sayer wrote:Stretch your limbs and shake off the rigidness of academia
Unlike you, I studied hard specifically so I can assess and utilise my academic knowledge, in conjunction with logic. You simply don't have my additional resources....and it shows. :lol:

Are you now "anti-education" and promoting spiritual religious crap on a science based forum?
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
sayer wrote:Drop the lens of hard- scientific academic thinking for a second.
No. I can't forget the hard science concerning the evolution of the consciousness which immediately falsifies your ridiculous claim. It's not my problem you have no knowledge about human evolution, organic chemistry or scientific evidence.


sayer wrote:If you take two deep breaths and continue to focus on your breathing, allowing your mind to become silent, your worrying and suffering alleviates. It's called meditation and it's proven to have multiple benefits.
I'm not suffering, nor worrying.....so that would be a complete waste of time.


sayer wrote:Stretch your limbs and shake off the rigidness of academia
Unlike you, I studied hard specifically so I can assess and utilise my academic knowledge, in conjunction with logic. You simply don't have my additional resources....and it shows. :lol:

Are you now "anti-education" and promoting spiritual religious crap on a science based forum?
:lol:




No, you just ignored everything from Harris that I posted that would alleviate your severe aversion to the spiritual, and used it as an oppurtunity to say 'I'm educated and youre not'.

Follow the links.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:36 am

Once again, there are some people who are far more highly educated than yourself and far more prestigious in the scientific community, much more famous and much more respected who are saying exactly what I'm saying.

Instead of trying to turn it into an ego war (which is ironic considering that's the exact topic of discussion), use this as an oppurtunity to discover some new concepts.

Don't let a haze of preconceived biases cut you off from something potentially life changing (it was for me). Your use of the term 'spiritual and religious crap' is very revealing of character and not, I think most people would agree, in a pleasant way.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:40 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Whatever sayer is saying is based on that there was a connected 'something' before the conscious ego self that calls itself sayer here existed, and that there will be a 'something' after his/her vessel expired.

There is not a shred of evidence for such a something, so all this musing seems merely based on hopeful wishful thinking and fear...


What is energy then?

Did one part of me exist now that hasn't existed since the dawn of time? Nope.

Is matter and energy ever destroyed? Nope.

By your account there is no evidence for matter and energy.

...

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:45 am

Gosh darned sceptics!!

For the record, and this ought to be on the front page of the forum...


Spiritual does not equal BS. Please, please tell me you are fans of Sam Harris (I don't understand why you wouldn't be, he's exactly your type ;p )
Dismissing all spiritual traditions and practices as nonsense does not make you look very open minded.
Wonderful and positive aspects of reality are not based on fearful/wishful thinking.
Ruthless logical analysis is not the only approach to life of value.
Intuition has value in determining truth also.
Boasting your credentials does not make your argument more or less right.

Let us continue humbly with these things on a sticky note on our foreheads.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:46 am

sayer wrote: you just ignored everything from Harris that I posted that would alleviate your severe aversion to the spiritual, and used it as an oppurtunity to say 'I'm educated and youre not'.
Firstly, I have read Sam Harris and he has no bearing on the scientific understanding of the evolution of consciousness.

Secondly, this forum's express motto is "Promoting Science and Critical Thinking" and not "Hey Dudes....let's all become spiritual"

What makes me laugh at you, is that every one of the dualists who have spammed their propaganda on this forum, has claimed skeptics are at a disadvantage because they are educated.
:D

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:47 am

sayer wrote:Once again, there are some people who are far more highly educated than yourself and far more prestigious in the scientific community, much more famous and much more respected who are saying exactly what I'm saying.
Quote them and offer citations for their papers. That's how scientists work. Didn't you know? :lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:50 am

sayer wrote:Gosh darned sceptics!!
You came to our science based forum. We didn't go to you for "spiritual advice" , did we?. :lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
sayer wrote:Gosh darned sceptics!!
You came to our science based forum. We didn't go to you for "spiritual advice" , did we?. :lol:


I'll recommend it again, Waking Up by Sam Harris.

Let's see, we've had Richard Dawkins appear on the Waking Up podcast... I think he might be an evolutionary biologist...

It's also interesting that you've chosen to label me as a 'dualist'.

If anything I've promoted a monist philosophy. Look back over my posts. First I said that there is only oblivion or nothingness after death and before birth... suggesting that consciousness is a product of the material brain. Then I suggested that the self is NOT a ghost in the machine, but that it's an illusion arising from the functioning of the brain.

You're not even reading it Matthew! You're just on a crusade mate

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:01 am

sayer wrote: I'll recommend it again, Waking Up by Sam Harris.
I've read it. Now quote Sam Harris from that book and relate his evidence to your claims in this thread.....

sayer wrote:Let's see, we've had Richard Dawkins appear on the Waking Up podcast... I think he might be an evolutionary biologist...
....and? are you going to quote Richard? :lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:05 am

You've read it?! Why are you telling me that the idea that the self is an illusion is BS then???

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fajfkO_X0l0

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the ... -the-self2

Are you sure you read it

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:07 am

sayer wrote:Read 'Waking Up' by Sam Harris, it's a must-read. The idea that the ego is an illusion isn't woo, some of the worlds hardest rational and scientific thinkers agree on that.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waking-Up-Sear ... 1784160024

Come on dude
I read the sample that was available on Amazon. Based on that, I feel no need to waste 16USD on 200 pages of semantically nonsensical philosophy, anecdotes of Harris’ drug use, and the pathetically sad meanderings of a neuroscientist who has abandoned his lifework in favor of dualism. The reviews are consistent with what I read…

From Amazon:
The basic idea is that the brain is capable of altered states than normal consciousness. These are achieved very unreliably through some religions, and reliably through drugs such as LSD, and furthermore that these states are somehow important.

Unfortunately, if the brain is the source of self, this also means that any revelation that the "self is an illusion" can itself only be an illusion - like the NDE - and not the attainment of any genuine transcendental or transpersonal perspective. Consciousness has ipseity. In other words, my experience of oceanic self-lessness, whether through drugs or meditation, is inescapably happening to ME, within MY mind/brain alone, ie. as a function of my "self". I couldn't have the experience without it!

…he spends many pages arguing (correctly) that Near Death Experiences are of no value because they are caused by a cocktail of naturally produced chemicals in the brain. But then, inexplicably, he lauds hallucinogens as a mechanism for artificially inducing spiritual experiences, when all that they do is introduce a cocktail of man-made chemicals into the brain! You know full well (afterwards) that any experience you might have had was chemically created and therefore unreal and of zero value. How can this possibly teach you anything useful? It is the height of irresponsibility and condemns the book on its own.


From goodreads:
Unlike him, who seems to think that an empty consciousness is man's highest mental state, I still consider human thought to be the ultimate expression of the Universe examining itself, not the true source of pain and suffering that Harris claims in this deeply weird book.

Harris is a believer in the "Hard Problem" of consciousness. He says that consciousness cannot be explained in terms of information processing. He doesn't accept that neuroscience can fully explain the emergence of consciousness by correlating mind states with brain states. "We know nothing about how such a miracle of emergence might occur." Well, maybe *you* know nothing about it, but other people do. Don't be fooled. This isn't philosophy. This is science denial. Worse, it's dualism. Plain and simple. Ironically, he rejects dualism in the first chapter.

I think the overarching problem with this book is that Harris doesn't fully appreciate the philosophy of science. He claims his baloney detector is fully functional, but I think his detection rate would be improved were he to study skepticism and critical thinking.

For example, people who claim great benefit from mediation are biased because they've got an imperative to rationalize the large amount of time they spend meditating. This conflict of interest goes unmentioned in the book.

Another telling example is when Harris describes an interaction with his young son. His son asked where gravity comes from, and after a thoughtful pause, he replied, "we don't know where gravity comes from." Um, yes we do, Sam! Mass! Gravity comes from mass! Duh!

Obviously, he was answering the childlike question "why does gravity behave the way that it does?" instead of the scientific question "how does gravity behave?" Harris seems not to understand that "why" questions are invalid in science. Only "how" questions are answerable by science.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:13 am

sayer wrote:You've read it?! Why are you telling me that the idea that the self is an illusion is BS then???
....because I don't agree with him. That's the whole point in science. You have to read all the people you don't agree with as well as those you do agree with. Otherwise how can you asses alternative claims?

Remember....you are "anti education." Did you forget?

I note you can't actually quote anything from Sam Harris's book yourself to back up your claims.
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:14 am

sayer wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Whatever sayer is saying is based on that there was a connected 'something' before the conscious ego self that calls itself sayer here existed, and that there will be a 'something' after his/her vessel expired.

There is not a shred of evidence for such a something, so all this musing seems merely based on hopeful wishful thinking and fear...


What is energy then?

Did one part of me exist now that hasn't existed since the dawn of time? Nope.

Is matter and energy ever destroyed? Nope.

By your account there is no evidence for matter and energy.

...

Yeah, what is energy?


And how would it look if you stopped imbuing matter and energy with consciousness and determining intelligence. Merely working within a set of rules and automatically following what's possible does not make anything intelligent. Anthropomorphizing natural laws certainly is a human thing to do, but it's also a quite arrogant and ignorant activity.
.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:20 am

One can marvel at the awesomeness of it all, but one cannot 'own' it...
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:24 am

scrmbldggs wrote:One can marvel at the awesomeness of it all, but one cannot 'own' it...


THATS MY WHOLE POINT

There is no owner because there is no self.
There is the universe temporarily expressing itself as you, but beneath the temporary form is your actual nature which is matter and energy. Which is eternal.

In other words, 'you' are an illusion arising from matter and energy. A temporary expression of consciousness. And when that fades back into the soup of this mysterious universe-stuff, perhaps another 'you' based consciousness will arise just like you have now.

I can't see at all where you disagree with me.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:29 am

Chances are there won't be a second "you". The conditions for that to happen are too intricate. It would take all of history repeating itself exactly as it has played out up to the point of your existence. And continuing thus until your eventual demise.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:37 am

And - very well aware of the limitations of language - I would correct this "A temporary expression of consciousness" to "A temporary expression in the form of consciousness"...
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:39 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Chances are there won't be a second "you". The conditions for that to happen are too intricate. It would take all of history repeating itself exactly as it has played out up to the point of your existence. And continuing thus until your eventual demise.


I'm repeating myself a lot but it's alright.

I am not talking about a second you as in a doppelgänger of your current body and ego.

I am saying that the current body and ego are a temporary guise through which the universe gazes upon itself.

This form emerged out of the universal soup of energy and interacting forces. It will return to this soup, because that is what you really are - energy. You change form but do not disappear.

As such when I speak of being born again, I mean returning to the impersonal and unconscious sea of energy, and then being born into another conscious life just like you were born into this one. The sea waves and the universe 'peoples'. We're like leaves coming off the same tree.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:44 am

K, you still want to make the universe a conscious being. That's fine. But I'm done with that. Run along now, play with your nondual friends. :senile:
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:45 am

sayer wrote:I am saying that the current body and ego are a temporary guise through which the universe gazes upon itself.

John : "See that slug there?"
Pete : "Yep"
John : "Its only a temporary guise through which the universe gazes upon itself"
Pete : "Stop bogarting that joint"

Slug smoking.jpg
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:48 am

How about phrasing it like this.

Everyone in the world was born and has consciousness. All of us have had the experience of being born into this world.

Somebody has to be the person. I'm me, you are you; I'm having my conscious experience and you are having yours.

Now really that is a temporary fragmentation of what is actually one sea of ever changing energy.

When you die you will return to being the whole sea rather than one specific person. Before you were born, you were the whole sea of energy rather than one specific person.

Now you have to grasp that intuitively because I know there wasn't a 'you' TO be the sea of energy, but you catch my drift as it were.... there was the universe and then there was a formulation of energy that allowed you to be born and to have an experience.

Now in these precious years between birth and death, you are awake and aware of yourself as ONE PART of the universe, as something separate, subjective. But after your death you will return to the same state that was before you were born... it's like saying, if I peel away every last layer of an onion, what's left? The whole universe, that's what.

At some point, just as you were the whole universe before and then you entered into subjective experience.... there will be the whole universe again.... and then another entering into subjective experience. Because that's WHAT THE UNIVERSE DOES.

Being born is not something that the universe only gets to experience once.

Your EGO THAF YOU AFE RIGHT NOW only gets to do that once.

But your real identity beyond that temperature form is as Everything, constant universal energy ( which is not an identity or self at all). And from there, you will be born once again - because you know that that happens as it has just happened recently, that's what you are.

*exhales*

Was I making more sense that time?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:50 am

scrmbldggs wrote:K, you still want to make the universe a conscious being. That's fine. But I'm done with that. Run along now, play with your nondual friends. :senile:


It clearly is a conscious being - what are you?

Aren't you a nondual friend? Don't you hold a materialist/ monist philosophy?

Also, what's your reason for disagreeing with me at this point? Has the idea finally gained some footing?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
sayer wrote:I am saying that the current body and ego are a temporary guise through which the universe gazes upon itself.

John : "See that slug there?"
Pete : "Yep"
John : "Its only a temporary guise through which the universe gazes upon itself"
Pete : "Stop bogarting that joint"

Slug smoking.jpg



Lol.

Are you disagreeing with me at this point or no? It is sort of true.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:58 am

sayer wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:K, you still want to make the universe a conscious being. That's fine. But I'm done with that. Run along now, play with your nondual friends. :senile:


It clearly is a conscious being - what are you?

Aren't you a nondual friend? Don't you hold a materialist/ monist philosophy?

Also, what's your reason for disagreeing with me at this point? Has the idea finally gained some footing?

Nonsense. Just like: "When you die you will return to being the whole sea rather than one specific person."

When physical death occurs, what's commonly called the mind will disappear and the parts will break up into their components according to circumstances and their respective time frames. "You" was just a part the brain utilized for the duration of its biological existence as an organ of a unit.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:59 am

sayer wrote: Are you disagreeing with me at this point or no? It is sort of true.
Yes I am disagreeing with you and your claim is completely bogus.

How can the universe gaze on itself?
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:15 am

sayer wrote:Being born is not something that the universe only gets to experience once.

https://youtu.be/CMSYv_Z4SI8
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:20 am

I should add "Until there's convincing evidence to the contrary..." to my assertions.
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