Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:20 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: I am waiting for you to answer my question. If there are more visions of Buddha than Jesus, will you then say Buddha is more real than Jesus, using your own argument? :lol:

Kamil wrote:if I was shown that, then yes it would either stand to reason that or it would prove that NDEs are BS because everyone should see the same thing


Now to destroy Kamil's logic
Soooooo...... Did I forget to mention Christian visions can be separated between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant? ....So Kamil? If I were to separate Christians who see visions into Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant and Orthodox Christians saw more orthodox Saints and Christian symbolism, would you say Orthodox is the only real Christianity and convert to Orthodox?
:lol:

If St Constantine's vision was the Chi-Rho at Milvian Bridge, have you advised all other churches that the modern Christian crucifix is wrong?

If the Hadith is correct and Mohammed saw Jesus in a vision and Jesus had red and straight hair, does that mean all other Jesus must also have red hair or they are fake? :lol:

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:25 pm

Let's add to that, Matthew. What if 2% of people who experienced NDEs saw the Flying Spaghetti Monster and were touched by his noodly appendages? Would Kamil be forced to admit that Pastafarianism was valid?
:fsm:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:27 pm

The Stupidity of Kamil
Kamil is claiming that "every NDE vision is of Jesus and therefore Jesus must be real". In reality we have all read NDEs where no Jesus or any other "god" appears and no one is that stupid to claim that proves atheism. :D

In reality a person's hallucinations are going to reflect their cultural backgrounds.
:D

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:29 pm

Kamil wrote:
if I was shown that, then yes it would either stand to reason that or it would prove that NDEs are BS because everyone should see the same thing

Why wouldn't the Diety reveal him/her/its self in a way most pleasing to the recipient. What bias towards homogeneity is this?
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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:40 pm

Kamil's claim is absolutely hilarious. :lol:
Jesus in Surgery.jpg

Jesus loves humans.....not,... :lol:
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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Kamil » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Kamil's claim is absolutely hilarious. :lol:
Jesus in Surgery.jpg
Jesus loves humans.....not,... :lol:


well I would love to know why I have never heard of a claim where an NDEr saw Muhammad. Also, I would like a few examples of different Christians seeing different things.

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Kamil » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:48 am

Kamil wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Kamil's claim is absolutely hilarious. :lol:
Jesus in Surgery.jpg
Jesus loves humans.....not,... :lol:


well I would love to know why I have never heard of a claim where an NDEr saw Muhammad. Also, I would like a few examples of different Christians seeing different things.

by the way, I must concede I actually laughed at the last picture you posted, it was funny.

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:38 am

Kamil wrote: well I would love to know why I have never heard of a claim where an NDEr saw Muhammad.
Many Muslims have had visions of Islamic religious characters, however as it is forbidden to create images of Mohammad after 1500AD you will only find written references to these visions. That's why most visual images of Mohammed are from Persian miniatures from the Abbasid caliphate.

Kamil wrote: Also, I would like a few examples of different Christians seeing different things.
You will and mostly from Russian new Orthodox or "old believers" Orthodox.

As I already informed you Mohammed saw Jesus, in his vision with red straight hair. Therefore any christian you who has visions of Jesus with Red straight hair is seeing Jesus the Islamic prophet rather than the Christian Jesus. How many red hair Jesus visions have you compiled so far?

Pending Questions Kamil needs to answer
1) You claim that "gods" like Jesus are real, because they appear in people's NDE visions. I asked you to set out your working hypothesis how these "Gods" interact with individual neurons in a person's brain to create these images. Please do that now.


2) Most NDEs don't have any religious characters in them at all. Are you claiming these are a totally different natural NDEs as explained by normal science, and not special NDEs manufactured by "Gods"?

3) If atheists having NDEs don't see any gods at all and Christians see Christian Gods and Muslims see Muslim Gods and Hindus see Hindu Gods..........did it occur to you for a nanosecond that this may be due to different cultural backgrounds rather than real Gods interfering with brains?

4) How do you explain NDEs by Christians who don't see any religious characters at all but are greeted by their dead pets? There is a list on the IANDS website.

5) Have you compiled a list of all the NDEs you have read about and do they all contain the same looking Jesus?

6) Why doesn't Jesus simply make the people who are near death better again rather than appear in NDEs and not help them at all?

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:39 am

Kamil wrote:by the way, I must concede I actually laughed at the last picture you posted, it was funny.
Jesus in Surgery.jpg

Why do you think it is funny? You are claiming that this is exactly what Jesus does?
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:48 am

Haven't had time to watch this yet..... but I'll post as betting its pretty good?

Published on May 3, 2017

Lawrence Krauss - The Border Between Reason & Nonsense

Lawrence Krauss gives a speech about the frontiers of science and discusses rationality in general. Lawrence Krauss argues that skeptical inquiry is the best remedie for irrationality and nonsensical claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqmUGptsEbY
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:52 am

Kamil? Are you a former Syrian Muslim who converted to Christianity? I'm suspicious you are very aware that Mohammed had many visions, mostly in Mecca, and that's why you insisted I find evidence that Muslims had NDEs of Mohammad, rather than mention the visions Mohammad had himself.

Is that correct?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:07 am

In a bombed out hospital somewhere in the `-stans`… a patient is just coming out of surgery and says: `Hey Doc, I had this wonderful dream.`

Doc says: `A dream? I don`t think so. We declared you dead, but then you seemed to twitch, so we didn`t cut your throat to harvest your blood for the next guy in line.`

The patient responds: `Well I am glad you didn`t, since I saw Mohammad (peace be upon him), and I spoke with him, and he offered me one of his 72 virgins. And we had a good time and drank some nice wine.`

Doc says: `That must have been an NDE. But it doesn’t sound like Muhammed (peace be upon him), but more like Jesus – that wine and all.`

The patient responds: ` Nope it was Muhammed (peace be upon him) for sure, since he had these prepubescent wives and also slept with all of those virgins. And Doc, Jesus only slept with, prostitutes, right?`

Doc says: `Hmmm, to make sure, maybe you could draw a picture of who you saw.` So patient does so, and sure enough there is Muhammed (peace be upon him), child wives, virgins, and decanter, all intertwined in an orgy romp.`

Doc immediately whips out his sword and decapitates the hapless patient, since one is not permitted to depict Mohammed (peace be upon him).

And there, dear Kamil is the reason that NDEs always involve seeing Jesus and not that other guy.

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Kamil wrote:
if I was shown that, then yes it would either stand to reason that or it would prove that NDEs are BS because everyone should see the same thing

Why wouldn't the Diety reveal him/her/its self in a way most pleasing to the recipient. What bias towards homogeneity is this?

I love this. Well done, bobbo, for drawing what should always have been an obvious relationship with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. More power to the Diety!!!

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Kamil? Are you a former Syrian Muslim who converted to Christianity? I'm suspicious you are very aware that Mohammed had many visions, mostly in Mecca, and that's why you insisted I find evidence that Muslims had NDEs of Mohammad, rather than mention the visions Mohammad had himself.

Is that correct?


Nope I'm actually from Poland. I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto. I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Gord » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:39 pm

Kamil wrote:I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto.

Well, I think I agree with you that there is nothing really to grasp onto.

I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?

Fear gets to me sometimes, but it's important to remember that believing something to be true just because you fear it isn't is a poor to reason to believe it's true. It's better to find out the truth, and if you can't live with that truth, then ignore it.

Well, not a lot better, but still better. The best thing to do is to adapt to what's real, to deal with it, to learn to live with it, to embrace it and make it less frightening.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:49 pm

Kamil wrote:Nope I'm actually from Poland. I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto. I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?

You're having a crisis of faith and looking for some real world reason to continue believing? That's a tough situation, Kamil, since there is no real world proof. Religion is a matter of suspending disbelief; the second you apply logic to religion, it falls apart.

There are two roads you can take from here:
1. You can stop being skeptical, stop looking for proof, and trust in your faith. Obviously, you're Christian, so your faith teaches you that your god has a plan, that your behavior in this earthly life will be rewarded in paradise, if you believe and follow the tenets of your faith.
2. You can abandon religion in favor of logic...and still marvel at the miraculous universe we live in, even knowing it wasn't created by magic. The fact that an utterly random set of circumstances allowed you to be in this time and place is the real miracle. Enjoy it! Learn everything you can about it! Carpe diem et noctem.

If you take the first road, you should have no further worries about this thread, if your faith is strong. If you take the second road, you should have no further worries about this thread, because you'll know there's a logical explanation for NDEs that has nothing to do with religion. It's only the fact that you're standing at the crossroads, undecided about which road to take, that this issue is bothering you.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:21 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:Nope I'm actually from Poland. I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto. I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?

You're having a crisis of faith and looking for some real world reason to continue believing? That's a tough situation, Kamil, since there is no real world proof. Religion is a matter of suspending disbelief; the second you apply logic to religion, it falls apart.

There are two roads you can take from here:
1. You can stop being skeptical, stop looking for proof, and trust in your faith. Obviously, you're Christian, so your faith teaches you that your god has a plan, that your behavior in this earthly life will be rewarded in paradise, if you believe and follow the tenets of your faith.
2. You can abandon religion in favor of logic...and still marvel at the miraculous universe we live in, even knowing it wasn't created by magic. The fact that an utterly random set of circumstances allowed you to be in this time and place is the real miracle. Enjoy it! Learn everything you can about it! Carpe diem et noctem.

If you take the first road, you should have no further worries about this thread, if your faith is strong. If you take the second road, you should have no further worries about this thread, because you'll know there's a logical explanation for NDEs that has nothing to do with religion. It's only the fact that you're standing at the crossroads, undecided about which road to take, that this issue is bothering you.


I can't disagree with what you are saying anymore. What your saying is rational, again, I let fear get the better of me. I am so afraid that if I stop believing I could theoretically be wrong. What then, if I die and wake up suffering? I hate to do this but can you at least read the beginning of this and tell me what you think? It would help if I had some rationally minded people assessing examples of my exact fear.

http://stvladimirs.ca/orthodox-near-dea ... in-russia/

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:02 pm

Twaddle. A good read for those who set aside everything that mankind has learned in favour of faith. Reminded me of Readers Digest. Believe it if you like, but there was nothing there which might be verified, or believed in the absence of faith.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:03 pm

Kamil wrote: .....I can't disagree with what you are saying ....... again, I let fear get the better of me. I am so afraid that if I stop believing I could theoretically be wrong.

Technically, this is called: "Being Stuck on Stupid."

I believe there is medication and/or psychiatric help for such folks who feel special making themselves and everyone around them miserable. You will be happier when you learn to avoid such folks.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:53 pm

Kamil wrote: I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto. I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?


No. My parent were atheists and I'm 100% atheist. I have never had religious beliefs. However, I admit I visit churches, mosques and temples and enjoy the art, sculpture and emotion generated through listening to Bach composing for religious events. That is because I love the creativity of humans.

I think it is enough for people to celebrate the unique works of humans and we don't need religion anymore.


(And yes, I would love to go to Poland.) :D

(I know about Russian new and old believer Orthodox Christianity, as I went to Russia to learn about Russian culture and practice Russian as a language.)

(Mohammad had a lot of visions and I was setting you up, as only Mohammad described "Jesus the prophet", from an Islamic point of view.)

Near-Death Experiences and Islam
http://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:01 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote: I am thinking now that NDEs are the only proof for religion, so if I chuck those out the window there is nothing really to grasp onto. I fear letting go though because I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?


No. My parent were atheists and I'm 100% atheist. I have never had religious beliefs. However, I admit I visit churches, mosques and temples and enjoy the art, sculpture and emotion generated through listening to Bach composing for religious events. That is because I love the creativity of humans.

I think it is enough for people to celebrate the unique works of humans and we don't need religion anymore.


(And yes, I would love to go to Poland.) :D


yeah it's a nice place. I'm wondering just out of curiosity, what would you say the reasons are that some so callled atheists claim to see hell during NDEs, could it be that they were still raised in a particular faith so even when they rejected it, it was still in the back of their minds?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:08 pm

Kamil wrote: I'm wondering just out of curiosity, what would you say the reasons are that some so called atheists claim to see hell during NDEs, could it be that they were still raised in a particular faith so even when they rejected it, it was still in the back of their minds?


Good question. I imagine that the reason Atheists see religious themes and imagery in their hallucinations is simply because religious themes and imagery are all over television, movies, magazines and billboards. I have nightmare about monsters I have seen in movies, yet that doesn't mean monsters are real.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:28 am

Kamil wrote:I can't disagree with what you are saying anymore. What your saying is rational, again, I let fear get the better of me. I am so afraid that if I stop believing I could theoretically be wrong. What then, if I die and wake up suffering? I hate to do this but can you at least read the beginning of this and tell me what you think? It would help if I had some rationally minded people assessing examples of my exact fear.

http://stvladimirs.ca/orthodox-near-dea ... in-russia/

I skimmed it. This woman claims she died of cancer on 19 February 1965, her internal organs "rotted," lay dead in the morgue for five days, then came back to life on 23 February 1965 in perfect health. The human body cannot live for more than three minutes without breathing, and for more than three days without drinking water. Cancer that has progressed to that stage does not spontaneously remit, and most body tissues do not spontaneous regenerate, certainly not in a corpse.

She claims a fantastic supernatural experience occurred during that five days which caused her to repent her atheism, and insists that everyone else should repent, "for the Son of Man will come soon." Since her alleged experience was 52 years ago, what's her definition of "soon?" Her prediction is as worthless as every prediction made before hers and subsequent to hers. None of the doomsayers has been correct.

Excerpt: "It was noon, the third day after I had died." Simultaneously, "This took place at 9:00 a.m. on February 23, 1965." Both can't be true. She's trying to fit her story into Biblical canon with the first statement, but Friday (19 February 1965) to Tuesday (23 February 1965) is five days, not three. It's not even the third day after she died; it's the fourth. Either she can't count—doubtful, since she's not illiterate—or she's lying about the whole thing.

Look, Kamil, I'm not going to convince you to give up your faith...or to keep and strengthen it. That's entirely your own decision, and only you can make it. Contrary to popular opinion, most atheists don't proselytize atheism. All I can do is show you how I look at things like this woman's story...logically. You have to decide whether you can get over your fear or not. Whatever you do decide, I wish you well.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:[color=#000080]No. My parent were atheists and I'm 100% atheist. I have never had religious beliefs. However, I admit I visit churches, mosques and temples and enjoy the art, sculpture and emotion generated through listening to Bach composing for religious events. That is because I love the creativity of humans.
Same here. We always made time, when in Washington, DC, to visit Washington National Cathedral, the Basilica, and the Islamic Center along with the various museums.

I recall walking into Washington National one afternoon with my mom and uncle. Sunlight was slanting through the stained glass windows onto the columns. Meanwhile, a lone musician was practicing the French horn up in the choir loft. All three of us stood there with tears streaming down our faces. It was sensory overload of the best kind.

Bach's "Air on a G String" does that to me every time, it's so heartbreakingly beautiful.
https://youtu.be/pzlw6fUux4o
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:01 am

Kamil wrote:I have seen so many NDE videos on Christian websites where a person claims they were an atheist, sometimes mocked the faith, and in their NDE they get shown hell. Does this ever get to you?

It does a little. Because it's a scam. It had become a selling point a little while ago among evangelicals, that story of the 'saved atheist'. Most of them, of course, had not been atheists, but they are sales people. Selling snake oil miracles and having found a gimmick with the rise of people who dared proclaim they do not believe in the man-made god(s). And the fear of the faithful as an added bonus.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:07 am

LunaNik wrote: I recall walking into Washington National one afternoon with my mom and uncle. Sunlight was slanting through the stained glass windows onto the columns. Meanwhile, a lone musician was practicing the French horn up in the choir loft. All three of us stood there with tears streaming down our faces. It was sensory overload of the best kind.
My partner, Amanda, is Catholic. I always shove her through a cathedral's door first, so I can sneak around behind her and look at things on my own.

I still go out of my way to try to experience "awe". I think atheists can enjoy "awe" just as much as anyone else.
:D

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
LunaNik wrote: I recall walking into Washington National one afternoon with my mom and uncle. Sunlight was slanting through the stained glass windows onto the columns. Meanwhile, a lone musician was practicing the French horn up in the choir loft. All three of us stood there with tears streaming down our faces. It was sensory overload of the best kind.
My partner, Amanda, is Catholic. I always shove her through a cathedral's door first, so I can sneak around behind her and look at things on my own.

I still go out of my way to try to experience "awe". I think atheists can enjoy "awe" just as much as anyone else.
:D
I agree; we can! One doesn't need religion to recognize an exceptional sensory experience. Actually, I might make the argument that such experiences are more transcendent for atheists, because we recognize either the human inspiration and effort or the natural processes involved. To me, that makes it that much more awesome.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:18 am

Second that^.
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:38 am

I've experienced awe in the highlands of Ethiopia, Sedona Az, and Machu Piccu. something about high thin air?

but very close has occurred watching tv shows on "The Universe" or more generally on Science when some breakthrough or recognition is made. got some of it watching the 11 part series on Albert Einstein called Genius and his awe at recognizing several of his new ideas.

Some Awes are more awesome than other Awes, but like beer, I've never had a bad Awe.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:50 am

guys, would you say that the fact that hell does sometimes appear to look different in NDEs may prove it's false? Some people see fire, others see darkness, others feel cold, others see snakes, it is all somewhat different. The one recorring theme though seems to be demons mocking people, saying God isn't real, until they call out to God/Jesus, and get saved. WOuld you say that even though there are similarities, that the differences are also something to think about?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:59 am

Kamil wrote:guys, would you say that the fact that hell does sometimes appear to look different in NDEs may prove it's false?
Prove what is false? We already know that people have hallucinations from their memories of fictional and non fictional things.
Kamil wrote:The one recurring theme though seems to be demons mocking people, saying God isn't real, until they call out to God/Jesus, and get saved.
That's crap and you know it. If I was to set out every NDE story line in the world that would be lass that 1% of all the stories, if even that.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Flash » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:15 am

bobbo the Pragmatist:
I've experienced awe in the highlands of Ethiopia, Sedona Az, and Machu Piccu. something about high thin air?

I've experience awe when high too. No, It wasn't the thin air. I think it was this "stuff" I was smoking.
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:38 am

LunaNik wrote:... I think atheists can enjoy "awe" just as much as anyone else ...


Oh, absolutely. And the designers, builders and decorators of cathedrals, mosques and synagogues the world over were well aware of that. I often wonder how many wavering atheists changed their minds as a direct result of very clever artesans.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:34 am

LunaNik wrote:The human body cannot live for more than three minutes without breathing, and for more than three days without drinking water....

I don't think those numbers are very accurate. I've gone for longer than three days without drinking anything, for example. But I was in the right place and doing the right amount of nothing.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... e-average/

How Long Can the Average Person Survive Without Water?

It is impossible to give an answer to this seemingly simple question because many variable factors determine a person's survival time. Under the most extreme conditions, death can come rather quickly. For example, a child left in a hot car or an athlete exercising hard in hot weather can dehydrate, overheat and die in a period of a few hours. An adult in comfortable surroundings, in contrast, can survive for a week or more with no, or very limited, water intake.


Here's a short article about the variable times for going without: http://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-the- ... e-or-sleep
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:28 pm

Gord wrote:
LunaNik wrote:The human body cannot live for more than three minutes without breathing, and for more than three days without drinking water....

I don't think those numbers are very accurate. I've gone for longer than three days without drinking anything, for example. But I was in the right place and doing the right amount of nothing.
Which is unusual. Generally, situations where there is no water are survival situations. The Rule of Threes is a good general rule for the average person to remember in order to pace their activity. In a comfortable environment, however, an adult can last without water for a week or more. How often does someone get trapped "in a comfortable environment" that doesn't include a source of water?

And in this particular case, the woman claimed she was dead (not breathing or drinking water) for five days while stashed in the morgue. I think we can agree that the human body can't live without breathing or drinking for five days while in a room kept at 2-4ºC.
Gord wrote:Here's a short article about the variable times for going without: http://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-the- ... e-or-sleep
Every person and situation is different, though the 'rule of threes' gets at the desperate nature of what our bodies need: 3 minutes without oxygen, three days without water, three weeks without food.

But some extraordinary members of our species have broken and redefined these and other limits of human survival.
We've always had "extraordinary" people breaking records. The four-minute mile, for example, which physiologists had previously claimed was physically impossible. But this article mostly speaks of deliberate record-breaking.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Confidencia » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:25 am

Kamil wrote:The one recurring theme though seems to be demons mocking people, saying God isn't real, until they call out to God/Jesus, and get saved.


Kamil, all you need to know is this. Consciousness is one, so from your perspective of this one consciousness all other points of consciousness exist. In other words everything you experience and have not experienced is within your consciousness. The idea that one of these other points of consciousness exists outside of your own consciousness is self delusion.

The moment this consciousness comes into focus it is recording information. Some of this information you are conscious of and some you are not. Basically that which you like you are conscious of and that which you don't don't like you are unconscious of. Both the conscious and the unconscious are attributes of this one consciousness.

This one consciousness is like the field in which the space, ocean and an iceberg is seen. The part of the iceberg which you see on the surface of the ocean is the conscious experience or mind and the vastness of the iceberg below the surface is the total unconscious experience . The tip the iceberg also represents your waking state, it is a function that operates largely below the threshold of this consciousness but whilst it is in operation it is recording data, most of which is done without you being aware of it.

All this information whether conscious or unconscious is recorded and stored in the memory the consciousness. This memory acts like a sort of cloud for all the data that is being transmitted and received in the field of this consciousness.

During your waking state you are governed by the memories of these recording. So when you say I am the one doing whatever it is that is happening, I am the one making the decisions because I have a choice you are actually under the influence of self delusion. Whilst you are awake you are moving according to the information that has already been recorded. Your brain has recorded the images that make up your environment and it has also recorded the data that enable you to interact safely with this environment so in reality it is your memory that decides for you and not you.

When you go to sleep at night that part of your brain which controls your waking state is suspended. So now not only do you have access to the conscious memories there are those unconscious memories that are ordinarily suppressed during your waking state that become available. During REM sleep the brain is no longer restricted to the waking state by the self conscious mind so it has full access to the total experience of consciousness.

So for instance if you are a Christian and you have a NDE you will not only see your own personal experiences relating to that belief system, your brain will have access to total conscious and total unconscious experience of Christianity. Obviously this will include the mocking demons scenarios and any other negative experiences relating to that particular belief system. Whatever comes to the surface during an NDE will depend on the state of your mind at that moment in time. It will be the same for any other belief system. Whatever you are seeing during these instances will be a mixture of both conscious and unconscious memories. The brain render images as a strategy for coping with the fear of a potential threat. The brain will also render image based on its desire to survive that threat. It is basically the flight or fight mechanism kicking in but on the level of the unconscious.

When you are not there as a self conscious experiencer access to the whole conscious experience is available. When you are there as a self conscious experiencer there is rationale, reason and logic and the experience is limited and restricted to the self conscious mind which is basically automatic recognition based on rationale, reason and logic.

Consciousness is only aware of that which moves it cannot arrest this movement because it is itself the movement. To arrest the movement it must know itself as something else and this cannot be done without the aid of awareness. Knowing itself as something else is awareness. Awareness can arrest the movement of consciousness and also know that is has arrested the movement of this consciousness. That my friend is being aware of your awareness. It is not a recording nor is it a mental construct, it is neither a
movement or a state of mind. It can test itself but it cannot be tested against itself for the simple reason there is nothing beside it.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Monster » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:23 pm

Confidencia wrote:
Kamil wrote:The one recurring theme though seems to be demons mocking people, saying God isn't real, until they call out to God/Jesus, and get saved.


Kamil, all you need to know is this. Consciousness is one, so from your perspective of this one consciousness all other points of consciousness exist. In other words everything you experience and have not experienced is within your consciousness. The idea that one of these other points of consciousness exists outside of your own consciousness is self delusion.

The moment this consciousness comes into focus it is recording information. Some of this information you are conscious of and some you are not. Basically that which you like you are conscious of and that which you don't don't like you are unconscious of. Both the conscious and the unconscious are attributes of this one consciousness.

This one consciousness is like the field in which the space, ocean and an iceberg is seen. The part of the iceberg which you see on the surface of the ocean is the conscious experience or mind and the vastness of the iceberg below the surface is the total unconscious experience . The tip the iceberg also represents your waking state, it is a function that operates largely below the threshold of this consciousness but whilst it is in operation it is recording data, most of which is done without you being aware of it.

All this information whether conscious or unconscious is recorded and stored in the memory the consciousness. This memory acts like a sort of cloud for all the data that is being transmitted and received in the field of this consciousness.

During your waking state you are governed by the memories of these recording. So when you say I am the one doing whatever it is that is happening, I am the one making the decisions because I have a choice you are actually under the influence of self delusion. Whilst you are awake you are moving according to the information that has already been recorded. Your brain has recorded the images that make up your environment and it has also recorded the data that enable you to interact safely with this environment so in reality it is your memory that decides for you and not you.

When you go to sleep at night that part of your brain which controls your waking state is suspended. So now not only do you have access to the conscious memories there are those unconscious memories that are ordinarily suppressed during your waking state that become available. During REM sleep the brain is no longer restricted to the waking state by the self conscious mind so it has full access to the total experience of consciousness.

So for instance if you are a Christian and you have a NDE you will not only see your own personal experiences relating to that belief system, your brain will have access to total conscious and total unconscious experience of Christianity. Obviously this will include the mocking demons scenarios and any other negative experiences relating to that particular belief system. Whatever comes to the surface during an NDE will depend on the state of your mind at that moment in time. It will be the same for any other belief system. Whatever you are seeing during these instances will be a mixture of both conscious and unconscious memories. The brain render images as a strategy for coping with the fear of a potential threat. The brain will also render image based on its desire to survive that threat. It is basically the flight or fight mechanism kicking in but on the level of the unconscious.

When you are not there as a self conscious experiencer access to the whole conscious experience is available. When you are there as a self conscious experiencer there is rationale, reason and logic and the experience is limited and restricted to the self conscious mind which is basically automatic recognition based on rationale, reason and logic.

Consciousness is only aware of that which moves it cannot arrest this movement because it is itself the movement. To arrest the movement it must know itself as something else and this cannot be done without the aid of awareness. Knowing itself as something else is awareness. Awareness can arrest the movement of consciousness and also know that is has arrested the movement of this consciousness. That my friend is being aware of your awareness. It is not a recording nor is it a mental construct, it is neither a
movement or a state of mind. It can test itself but it cannot be tested against itself for the simple reason there is nothing beside it.

:confused: :scratch: :huh:
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:16 pm

Monster wrote:
Confidencia wrote:Kamil, all you need to know is this. Consciousness is one, so from your perspective of this one consciousness all other points of consciousness exist. In other words everything you experience and have not experienced is within your consciousness. The idea that one of these other points of consciousness exists outside of your own consciousness is self delusion.

:confused: :scratch: :huh:

I bet it's something lost in translation. Let's try an experiment: We'll translate it through a sequence of languages, English > Thai > Belarussian > Serbian > Welsh > Dutch > Polish > Czech > Russian > Portuguese > Bulgarian > Finnish > Yiddish > German > Catalan > Arabic > Afrikaans > Romanian > Turkish > English, and see what we get:

Kamil citsanuk "shy Kaw LKN Kogato tkng RU bag hnung dangnan alkalym" mkng khkng Kogato khkng citsanuk VE Chak zujka Siuna "khkng · q MY kayw kanigha shamiruk hnung Chak Kiyang shame Mayr Kogato PHB LAEA've prasbkarn kaway VE citsanuk khkng KOGATO IDS Khvamli N hnung zujka frjynya bawilayat Siena shy "SCI SCI khkng Kchanhie kayw alqilm NKSK Khvamli khkng kheaci khkng tnkeng yumkin DVI Ksienh piridin.

How's that? Is that better, worse, or about the same?
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:38 pm

I'm going with "about the same."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:00 pm

Confidencia wrote: Kamil, all you need to know is this.
You really should have read through the thread first. "Kamil" is the sock-puppet of a troll called "Matt MSV7". The irony is that you, another troll, got sucked in by a troll.

You have woeful observation and communication skills.
:D


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