Souls and afterlife seem to be real

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Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:54 am

Hello everyone,
for a long time, people have thought that Near Death Experiences are just a result of the brain, I have found some recent cold hard facts which may prove it is in fact a soul at work:
http://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-nea ... -research/
http://skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long_takes_ ... afterlife/
http://skeptiko.com/118-jeffrey-long-re ... to-parnia/

Here is a really good one which totally debunks the oxygen theory:
http://skeptiko.com/critique-of-skeptics-guide-249/

Dr. Long has done so much research which shows that a lack of oxygen only causes confused hallucinations, while NDEs make sense, and are not only fragments of memory. There are also tons of verified out of body experiences, which took place while a person's brain had no measurable activity. People have been able to travel far distances, hear conversations, and explain exactly what happened while they were out, only later to be verified. Skeptics, how would you respond to all these lines of proof that it cannot be a brain?
1) doctors have debunked oxygen/hypoxia theory
2) drugs also cause weird hallucinations
3) Dr. Long's recorded out of body experiences which took place in operating rooms came back with 97.5% accuracy
4) Dr. Penny Sartori has tested people who have never been in a hospital setting, asking them to guess what procedures may go on, and they all fail, yet these NDErs can report everything with close to 100% accuracy
5) There are no cultural differences, and all NDEs are very very similar

how could anyone think they are not the spirit leaving the body? So many have been verified, some people even report floating to other rooms and hearing exact conversations.

Skeptics, enlighten me

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:44 am

Sooo... in which medical journals has this been published? Maybe even awarded a Nobel prize?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:38 am

Kamil wrote:Hello everyone, ......Skeptics, enlighten me.
You forgot to mention Jeffrey Long was actually looking for God and evidence to support his views about souls. A real scientist makes a scientific hypothesis and then tries to falsify it. Long didn't get that far.

You also forgot that real scientists have already identified why people think they experience OBE and NDEs, almost a decade ago.

https://www.livescience.com/16019-death ... ained.html

How about you write down for us exactly what Jeffrey Long's working hypothesis was? :D

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote:Hello everyone, ......Skeptics, enlighten me.
You forgot to mention Jeffrey Long was actually looking for God and evidence to support his views about souls. A real scientist makes a scientific hypothesis and then tries to falsify it. Long didn't get that far.

You also forgot that real scientists have already identified why people think they experience OBE and NDEs, almost a decade ago.

https://www.livescience.com/16019-death ... ained.html

How about you write down for us exactly what Jeffrey Long's working hypothesis was? :D


Dr. Long's book has many peer reviewed scientific works which demonstrate that an oxygen deprived brain cannot create such vivid experiences, that make sense, and can be remembered 60 years later without forgetting any details. He also found that in a study of NDErs, 30 of them had regular oxygen levels. Even the article you gave says you don't have to be near death to have an NDE, meaning oxygen levels would be regular, and that is the only explanation most skeptics jump to. Then they claim that a brain that is so close to death can create this kind of imagery. There have been neurosurgeons who are experts with the brain who say a brain in that state could never create an NDE, and yet people with OBEs can tell doctor's exactly what was said and done during the procedure. Patients who had cardiac arrest but no NDE could not tell doctor's what happened. Finally DR. Long found that 1 in 1000 ppl have awareness during anesthesia, and that this awareness is usually frightening and painful, yet 10 percent of cardiac arrest patients have OBEs that make sense. Checkmate. I'd like to see you explain your way out of that one.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:27 pm

Kamil wrote:...can be remembered 60 years later without forgetting any details....

That's impossible. Memories don't work that way. Each time we remember something, we are rewriting the memory. Over time we will unavoidably forget some things and create other new elements to those memories that were not a part of the original events.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:20 pm

Gord wrote:
Kamil wrote:...can be remembered 60 years later without forgetting any details....

That's impossible. Memories don't work that way. Each time we remember something, we are rewriting the memory. Over time we will unavoidably forget some things and create other new elements to those memories that were not a part of the original events.


Ok, you still haven't debunked the NDE concept

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:22 pm

Which concept is that, Kamil? The one you came in here with was that of the soul, and you've offered absolutely nothing on that. I like "Dr. Long's recorded out of body experiences which took place in operating rooms came back with 97.5% accuracy" though. Good claim. Except it's absolutely non-reproducible. Why do you think that is so, Kamil? Lastly, you say that you don't have to be near death to have an NDE. What?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Shen1986 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:29 pm

Jeffrey Long? Not again this was asked so many times here. Here read this about him:

http://www.thegoodatheist.net/2010/01/2 ... afterlife/
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Shen1986 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Also from Dr. Longs web page if there is a afterlife then at least in one of them exists a being from H. P. Lovecraft which I doubt is true:

Day one at hospital, I experienced two deaths with no account of an NDE.

Day two at the hospital, I experienced my third death and the NDE. At the time of the NDE I was in much distress and knew that I was about to die. I had enough time to tell the hospital staff to express my love for my family and slowly slipped away from life. I had a feeling of leaving my body in total darkness and suddenly found myself atop a mezzanine metal catwalk in an industrial setting. Everything in this environment was a different shade of red but distinguishable. It was then that I fell from an edge flipping, flipping, flipping, down until I landed into a vast pile of gigantic 'worm-like' creatures possessing large claws and teeth. When I first landed on them I was on top of them and then slowly slipped beneath them.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1william_l_nde.html

Also do not forget that there are NDEs where Elvis was seen in heaven and was similar to Jesus: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a24

If NDEs are the true afterlife like Dr. Long is claiming then why there are not consistent? Some people see Jesus, some people see Elvis others even have a worm cthulhu in their NDE. If Long is right then we all should have 1 version of a NDE with little differences.

So for me these are nothing more then hallucinations.

Also Kamil quoting a pro-believer website like Skeptiko where people believe in all things from telepathy to astral projection will not convince people around here.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Shen1986 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:53 pm

Kamil wrote:1) doctors have debunked oxygen/hypoxia theory


Nope they have not. Even when they have and there is another problem like Dr. Sam Parnia occidentally made clear that if the brain has reserves of oxygen then its not dying or dead and therefore its a hallucination because you are dead when your brain dies. Here you can read it: viewtopic.php?t=24302

Also you keep forgetting that NDEs can be caused not only be hypoxia: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers.html. It can be caused by many things even drugs. So in some instances it can be hypoxia in others even drugs which causes hallucinations.

Kamil wrote:2) drugs also cause weird hallucinations


Which are also NDEs.. NDEs are not always quite as consistent as Skeptiko claims. See above the example of a worm like NDE.

Kamil wrote:3) Dr. Long's recorded out of body experiences which took place in operating rooms came back with 97.5% accuracy


Evidence please. When even Dr. Sam Parnia failed: http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2014/10/a ... ter-death/

Kamil wrote:4) Dr. Penny Sartori has tested people who have never been in a hospital setting, asking them to guess what procedures may go on, and they all fail, yet these NDErs can report everything with close to 100% accuracy


Total nonsense. Penny Sartori a pro-believer if she claims this then she is blind. She wants to tell me that no one in this era has seen a medical drama tv show???? I would have to be demented to believe that. Sorry truly I would. Even my old folks know about medical procedures from TV even my brothers kids have some clue about it. Also no one of them was in a hospital I would not swallow that. They were where? In a jungle living out of civilization?

Kamil wrote:5) There are no cultural differences, and all NDEs are very very similar


No true see above with Elvis or the worm NDE. Or other cultural differences. Just google cultural differences in NDE.

I am replying because I missed the questions before.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
Kamil wrote:1) doctors have debunked oxygen/hypoxia theory


Nope they have not. Even when they have and there is another problem like Dr. Sam Parnia occidentally made clear that if the brain has reserves of oxygen then its not dying or dead and therefore its a hallucination because you are dead when your brain dies. Here you can read it: viewtopic.php?t=24302

Also you keep forgetting that NDEs can be caused not only be hypoxia: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers.html. It can be caused by many things even drugs. So in some instances it can be hypoxia in others even drugs which causes hallucinations.

Kamil wrote:2) drugs also cause weird hallucinations


Which are also NDEs.. NDEs are not always quite as consistent as Skeptiko claims. See above the example of a worm like NDE.

Kamil wrote:3) Dr. Long's recorded out of body experiences which took place in operating rooms came back with 97.5% accuracy


Evidence please. When even Dr. Sam Parnia failed: http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2014/10/a ... ter-death/

Kamil wrote:4) Dr. Penny Sartori has tested people who have never been in a hospital setting, asking them to guess what procedures may go on, and they all fail, yet these NDErs can report everything with close to 100% accuracy


Total nonsense. Penny Sartori a pro-believer if she claims this then she is blind. She wants to tell me that no one in this era has seen a medical drama tv show???? I would have to be demented to believe that. Sorry truly I would. Even my old folks know about medical procedures from TV even my brothers kids have some clue about it. Also no one of them was in a hospital I would not swallow that. They were where? In a jungle living out of civilization?

Kamil wrote:5) There are no cultural differences, and all NDEs are very very similar


No true see above with Elvis or the worm NDE. Or other cultural differences. Just google cultural differences in NDE.

I am replying because I missed the questions before.


Yeah but Shen, buddy, have you even read Dr. Long's book. All you have is something someone on good atheist said. Dr. Long's book uses so many peer reviewed sources to show that oxygen loss cannot be the answer. He has over 20 sources, and his book goes in detail arguing how it cannot be hallucinations. Hallucinations make no sense, NDEs do. All you have is GM worlee who is an idiot. So many ppl have debunked his crap it is unreal. Then you skeptics have Blackmore, who interviewed Tsakiris, and admitted she hadn't studied NDEs in 15 years, she lost the argument. How can a brain with zero measurable activity, still with oxygen and not on drugs create an NDE???

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:37 pm

Kamil wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: ... Dr. Long's book work has many peer reviewed scientific works articles ....


Great. So you will be posting those links, right?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:44 pm

Kamil wrote:... Hallucinations make no sense, NDEs do...


What can anyone say in the face of such ignorance? We could blame the educational system. But no - let's not. Let's instead blame anyone who can come up with such nonsensical {!#%@} as this. I'll have a go, too ... how about "Ghosts make no sense, manifestations of Beelzebub do"? Or "Fish make no sense, Clangers do". Easy when you know the rules, isn't it?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:49 pm

Hey everyone, Dr long knows his stuff, he even tested the oxygen levels in people's brains and found 30 NDErs who had more oxygen than usual in their brains. Explain that. Don't just say Dr long is wrong. If people have these with normal oxygen levels, how the hell is it caused by oxygen deprivation?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:50 pm

Dr. Long also gave a survey where 96.5 percent of NDErs said the experience felt realer than real life

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:57 pm

Kamil, do you know for a fact that Dr. Long's claims about oxygen levels are correct? If you do, please explain HOW you know this. Actually, it would be good if you could preface any statement you make with an extra statement that you are not Dr. Long.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:27 pm

Hold up a minute, if his claims were proven to be correct, would you then believe in NDEs?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:35 pm

This is an example of skeptics being wrong:

Dr. Susan Blackmore: I’m really trying here to be as truthful as I can and as correct about, to be honest about what I know and don’t know. I know that certainly those things I have just said are things that over the years I have learned about. Now, it won’t surprise me at all if you come up with something else that contradicts one of these or something, but those are the things which I do know have been researched. You jumped in on the carbon dioxide, well, there’s a certain paper-quite a lot of near-death experiences, 50-something of them, were studied in correlation and found between levels of carbon dioxide…
Alex Tsakiris: Hold on. They actually studied 11. The carbon dioxide levels really weren’t elevated. They were statistically elevated slightly by one statistical measure between the two groups that they studied, but the levels aren’t even higher than someone has when they’re scuba diving. So it’s really not strong evidence. We’ve dissected it quite a bit on this show with several experts, so yeah, that’s not strong…

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:44 pm

More to add:
Dr. Jeffrey Long: There’s a huge difference between simply blood flow to the brain and consciousness. I think that’s where Dr. Woerlee’s argument falls apart. Clinically, it’s known medically that there’s no substitute for talking to patients. When you talk to the patients who have actually survived CPR, one thing that is very, very obvious is that the substantial majority of them are confused or amnesic, even when they’re successfully recovered. They may be amnesic for the period of time following their successful resuscitation or even for events prior to the time of their cardiac arrest. If you read even a few near-death experiences, you immediately realize that there’s essentially none of them that talk about episodes of confusion or altered mental status when they just don’t understand what’s going on. You really don’t see that at all.

Just read this:
http://skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long_takes_ ... afterlife/

I'm telling you, it will convince you

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Monster » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:49 pm

Kamil wrote:Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Ok.

1. What are souls comprised of? The material that comprises them, I mean. For example, my body is a complex construction which is comprised of organic molecules, water, acids, and other stuff.

2. Where is the soul located? For example, yours. Where is it?

3. Can we see the soul? If so, do we need light to see it, or does the soul emit its own light?

4. How large are souls? Do babies have smaller souls than adults?

5.a. Are souls sort of like a parasitic alien? If so, they'd be their own species. What is the name of that species?
5.b. If souls aren't parasitic aliens, then are they part of the human body?

6. How is the soul connected to the human body?

7. What is the shape of a soul?

8. Can a soul be destroyed? Can it be born?

9. Do schizophrenics have multiple souls?

10. What is the relationship between the soul and the mind? Is the mind actually the soul? And what kind of interaction do souls have with the brain?

11. Do souls retain the entirety of their human body's experiences as memories? And what about the personality?

Regarding the afterlife:
12. Do you believe that after the death of the human body, a person's soul goes to some other place? If so, which place?

13. Have you been to that place?

14. Where is this place located?

15. How large is it?

16. Is it comprised of matter, like Earth is?

17. How replicable is all of this stuff about out of body experiences and near death experiences?


Kamil wrote:Finally DR. Long found that 1 in 1000 ppl have awareness during anesthesia, and that this awareness is usually frightening and painful, yet 10 percent of cardiac arrest patients have OBEs that make sense. Checkmate. I'd like to see you explain your way out of that one.


Whoa . . . did you just say "checkmate"? Wow, I guess I just lost, since I've been checkmated. I couldn't possibly respond to that, since, you know, I've been checkmated. Wow, you win, it seems.

To be more serious, it takes an order of magnitude greater effort to debunk stuff than to invent it. Come back when there's a theory that makes predictions, and those predictions are falsifiable.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:04 pm

Monster wrote:
Kamil wrote:Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Ok.

1. What are souls comprised of? The material that comprises them, I mean. For example, my body is a complex construction which is comprised of organic molecules, water, acids, and other stuff.

2. Where is the soul located? For example, yours. Where is it?

3. Can we see the soul? If so, do we need light to see it, or does the soul emit its own light?

4. How large are souls? Do babies have smaller souls than adults?

5.a. Are souls sort of like a parasitic alien? If so, they'd be their own species. What is the name of that species?
5.b. If souls aren't parasitic aliens, then are they part of the human body?

6. How is the soul connected to the human body?

7. What is the shape of a soul?

8. Can a soul be destroyed? Can it be born?

9. Do schizophrenics have multiple souls?

10. What is the relationship between the soul and the mind? Is the mind actually the soul? And what kind of interaction do souls have with the brain?

11. Do souls retain the entirety of their human body's experiences as memories? And what about the personality?

Regarding the afterlife:
12. Do you believe that after the death of the human body, a person's soul goes to some other place? If so, which place?

13. Have you been to that place?

14. Where is this place located?

15. How large is it?

16. Is it comprised of matter, like Earth is?

17. How replicable is all of this stuff about out of body experiences and near death experiences?


Kamil wrote:Finally DR. Long found that 1 in 1000 ppl have awareness during anesthesia, and that this awareness is usually frightening and painful, yet 10 percent of cardiac arrest patients have OBEs that make sense. Checkmate. I'd like to see you explain your way out of that one.


Whoa . . . did you just say "checkmate"? Wow, I guess I just lost, since I've been checkmated. I couldn't possibly respond to that, since, you know, I've been checkmated. Wow, you win, it seems.

To be more serious, it takes an order of magnitude greater effort to debunk stuff than to invent it. Come back when there's a theory that makes predictions, and those predictions are falsifiable.


Dude, there is so much evidence, you just have to read the last link I posted.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:09 pm

Yay! God exists. I've been so worried.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:28 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:How about you write down for us exactly what Jeffrey Long's working hypothesis was? :D


Kamil wrote: Dr. Long's book has many peer reviewed scientific works which demonstrate that an oxygen deprived brain cannot create such vivid experiences, that make sense, and can be remembered 60 years later without forgetting any details. He also found that in a study of NDErs, 30 of them had regular oxygen levels. Even the article you gave says you don't have to be near death to have an NDE, meaning oxygen levels would be regular, and that is the only explanation most skeptics jump to. Then they claim that a brain that is so close to death can create this kind of imagery. There have been neurosurgeons who are experts with the brain who say a brain in that state could never create an NDE, and yet people with OBEs can tell doctor's exactly what was said and done during the procedure. Patients who had cardiac arrest but no NDE could not tell doctor's what happened. Finally DR. Long found that 1 in 1000 ppl have awareness during anesthesia, and that this awareness is usually frightening and painful, yet 10 percent of cardiac arrest patients have OBEs that make sense. Checkmate. I'd like to see you explain your way out of that one.


So Jeffrey Long doesn't actually have a working hypothesis for souls at all. So why in hell are you claiming souls are real? :lol:

This was too easy. As you are a religious person you are used to accepting contradictory stories as real. At no point could you write down any definition of a soul and what a soul can supposedly do, without immediately contradicting yourself. Jeffrey Long didn't even get that far. :D

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Kamil wrote:..... have you even read Dr. Long's book.
Kamil opened this thread and for the title wrote:..Souls and afterlife seem to be real
Have you read his book? On what pages will I find Jeffrey Long's working hypothesis for souls, God and the afterlife, followed by his experiments to test the validity of his hypotheses? :lol:

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:44 pm

Kamil wrote:Hey everyone, Dr long knows his stuff, he even tested the oxygen levels in people's brains
How on earth did he do technically this as a consulting oncologist? More so, how did he do this more than thirty five years ago? Does he reproduce the anesthetist's monitoring reports for all these cases?

What is his exact medical procedure to test oxygen levels in the brain at the time of the NDE?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:38 am

souls are energy , no souls can't be destroyed...souls emit their own light....the more highly evolved the soul is the greater light it radiates......during nde's some have seen souls descending to the Earth to reincarnate...they can tell the most evolved souls by their brilliant light............if you met Elvis during your life you might meet him again in a nde....you meet those you knew before...a young girl met Elvis ..years later she met him again in a nde....
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:56 am

gorgeous wrote:souls are energy , no souls can't be destroyed...souls emit their own light....the more highly evolved the soul is the greater light it radiates......during nde's some have seen souls descending to the Earth to reincarnate...they can tell the most evolved souls by their brilliant light............if you met Elvis during your life you might meet him again in a nde....you meet those you knew before...a young girl met Elvis ..years later she met him again in a nde....

Incoherent ramblings, as per usual. :lol:

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:00 am

Kamil wrote:
Gord wrote:
Kamil wrote:...can be remembered 60 years later without forgetting any details....

That's impossible. Memories don't work that way. Each time we remember something, we are rewriting the memory. Over time we will unavoidably forget some things and create other new elements to those memories that were not a part of the original events.

Ok, you still haven't debunked the NDE concept

And I'm not going to. Constantly trying to debunk stupid stuff isn't very entertaining. It's the lowest-hanging fruit is the stuff I go after these days -- things I can reply to with a single brief paragraph of approximately three sentences.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:03 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Yay! God exists. I've been so worried.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:13 am

LunaNik wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Yay! God exists. I've been so worried.

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According to the Calvinists Jesus was a ball hog.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:48 am

Kamil wrote:There are no cultural differences, and all NDEs are very very similar
Not even remotely true. I found all of these in a 10-minute Google search of "NDE stories."
  • “I felt like trillions of billions of gigabytes of information being downloaded to me."
  • "Jesus was coming towards me in an energy/light/translucent form. As He touched me, I felt completely embraced by His Love, both Father’s and Mother’s love, the love you feel for the ideal parent when you are a child: safety, acceptance, loved, cherished. Right after that He suddenly took a human form and he looked like the Jesus who is traditionally portrayed." [So, light brown hair and blue eyes? I'd call that a "cultural difference."]
  • "R found himself in a place with 'no gravity, no color, no darkness, and no light.' Says R, ' didn’t know where I was or how I had gotten there. I was absolutely terrified.'”
  • "Then I went into a tunnel where I was greeted and held by my grandmother who had been dead for 14 years."
  • "It felt as though I was sinking into a deep, dark pool of water. Everything around me was black."
  • "Everything was getting louder until, suddenly, it started fading away and I was just floating on one of those tubes at Sportsworld [a local water park] with no one around."
  • "I was instantly transported into hell, where demons escorted me into a big waiting room. It was difficult to breathe down there, because of the terrible smell of the place. I saw a lake which looked like the inner part of a volcano, where people cursed because of great pain. There were snakes all over the ground."
  • "I followed voices down a long, dark hallway. Finally, I refused to follow them any further. Then, they attacked me, biting and tearing at me for a long time. When I heard a voice saying, 'Pray to God,' I began reciting the Lord's Prayer."
  • "I went to Heaven and met God in person. He's an immense brightness that you can feel, taste, touch, hear, and smell. In Heaven, you have 500 senses." [She declined to name the other 495.]
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:49 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Yay! God exists. I've been so worried.

Jesus saves...passes to Moses...Moses scores! Image

According to the Calvinists Jesus was a ball hog.

Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:12 am

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:There are no cultural differences, and all NDEs are very very similar
Not even remotely true. I found all of these in a 10-minute Google search of "NDE stories."
  • “I felt like trillions of billions of gigabytes of information being downloaded to me."
  • "Jesus was coming towards me in an energy/light/translucent form. As He touched me, I felt completely embraced by His Love, both Father’s and Mother’s love, the love you feel for the ideal parent when you are a child: safety, acceptance, loved, cherished. Right after that He suddenly took a human form and he looked like the Jesus who is traditionally portrayed." [So, light brown hair and blue eyes? I'd call that a "cultural difference."]
  • "R found himself in a place with 'no gravity, no color, no darkness, and no light.' Says R, ' didn’t know where I was or how I had gotten there. I was absolutely terrified.'”
  • "Then I went into a tunnel where I was greeted and held by my grandmother who had been dead for 14 years."
  • "It felt as though I was sinking into a deep, dark pool of water. Everything around me was black."
  • "Everything was getting louder until, suddenly, it started fading away and I was just floating on one of those tubes at Sportsworld [a local water park] with no one around."
  • "I was instantly transported into hell, where demons escorted me into a big waiting room. It was difficult to breathe down there, because of the terrible smell of the place. I saw a lake which looked like the inner part of a volcano, where people cursed because of great pain. There were snakes all over the ground."
  • "I followed voices down a long, dark hallway. Finally, I refused to follow them any further. Then, they attacked me, biting and tearing at me for a long time. When I heard a voice saying, 'Pray to God,' I began reciting the Lord's Prayer."
  • "I went to Heaven and met God in person. He's an immense brightness that you can feel, taste, touch, hear, and smell. In Heaven, you have 500 senses." [She declined to name the other 495.]


That's all nice, but what about all these verified out of body experiences such as Pam Reynolds, the Denture man? There are so many that take place where a person will go to another room in a hospital, hear their mother crying and saying something specific, and then they come back to tell her exactly what she said, all while her brain was flatlined.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:24 am

Kamil wrote:That's all nice
The correct response is, "Oh, I see. Well, you've proven one of my assertions wrong. Well done."
Kamil wrote:but what about all these verified out of body experiences such as Pam Reynolds, the Denture man? There are so many that take place where a person will go to another room in a hospital, hear their mother crying and saying something specific, and then they come back to tell her exactly what she said, all while her brain was flatlined.
When one person tells a story, and a relative backs it up, that's not verification. Verification is when a scientist conducts an experiment and publishes the results, including the details of her method and materials, then a completely unrelated scientist is able to replicate the results independently.

A talk show once hosted a criminologist who decided to show how unreliable eyewitness testimony was. To that end, he had a dozen members of the audience seated onstage, allegedly to hear their opinions (which people are always happy to offer). In the middle of this contrived situation, the criminologist had his assistant run onstage, grab an audience member's purse, then run back offstage. He then asked the dozen to describe the thief. None of the descriptions matched. The dozen could not agree on the thief's height, weight, build, race, clothing, or gender.

So, your "verified experience" is a quite large pile of male bovine excrement. (Edit: It's amazing how many people who claim to have had NDEs have profited from them by writing books, selling the rights to their stories to Hollywood, making the rounds on talk shows, kissing Wayne Dyer's butt, etc. Follow the money, Kamil.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:32 am

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:That's all nice
The correct response is, "Oh, I see. Well, you've proven one of my assertions wrong. Well done."
Kamil wrote:but what about all these verified out of body experiences such as Pam Reynolds, the Denture man? There are so many that take place where a person will go to another room in a hospital, hear their mother crying and saying something specific, and then they come back to tell her exactly what she said, all while her brain was flatlined.
When one person tells a story, and a relative backs it up, that's not verification. Verification is when a scientist conducts an experiment and publishes the results, including the details of her method and materials, then a completely unrelated scientist is able to replicate the results independently.

A talk show once hosted a criminologist who decided to show how unreliable eyewitness testimony was. To that end, he had a dozen members of the audience seated onstage, allegedly to hear their opinions (which people are always happy to offer). In the middle of this contrived situation, the criminologist had his assistant run onstage, grab an audience member's purse, then run back offstage. He then asked the dozen to describe the thief. None of the descriptions matched. The dozen could not agree on the thief's height, weight, build, race, clothing, or gender.

So, your "verified experience" is a quite large pile of male bovine excrement. (Edit: It's amazing how many people who claim to have had NDEs have profited from them by writing books, selling the rights to their stories to Hollywood, making the rounds on talk shows, kissing Wayne Dyer's butt, etc. Follow the money, Kamil.)


What then, would convince you that NDEs are real?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:44 am

Kamil wrote: What then, would convince you that NDEs are real?


You're never going to give a straight answer, aren't you? The phenomena that people feel NDEs are real, is true, scientific hypotheses made and experiments performed to support those hypotheses.

I now ask you again to set out the hypothesis for paranormal souls used by Jeffrey Long as his alternative hypothesis. It doesn't exist does it?

Now how on earth can we replace a working hypothesis supported by experimentation, when neither you or Jefferey Long can even define your alternative fuzzy thoughts as to what a paranormal soul is, what it does and have no working hypothesis for us to consider?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:04 am

I don't think we can. It just seems so hard to believe, because the brain isn't working during these times, and the people come back with such vivid stories

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:09 am

Kamil wrote:What then, would convince you that NDEs are real?

Evidence.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:22 am

Kamil wrote:I don't think we can. It just seems so hard to believe, because the brain isn't working during these times, and the people come back with such vivid stories

The fact that a phenomenon can't currently be explained scientifically doesn't mean that the explanation is supernatural. It simply means that we currently can't explain it. There are a plethora of phenomena we currently can't explain...yet. That doesn't mean we should hide under our blankets and start thinking in terms of ghosts and demons. It means we should look harder for real world answers.

Here's an example...I've talked a bit about my experiences with hypnagogic hallucinations. If I were an irrational person, I would report that I'd been visited by a demon, a three-headed dog, a 7-foot-tall insectile creature, a hooded and robed humanoid, and a myriad others...all at night. But I'm not an irrational person. My first thought was, "I need to see a neurologist, because what the actual @#$%!" Turns out I have sleep disorders that were causing sleep deprivation. BOOM. Real world answer. With treatment, I started getting restorative sleep and the hallucinations stopped.

Now, we know that sleep deprivation causes severe stress to the body, including the brain. Hence, the hallucinations. Imagine how much stress is caused by nearly dying. What biochemicals might be released that could account for the subjective NDE experience? (And, no, I don't think it matters that the experience bears no resemblance to memories. Everyone has an imagination that is hooked into their memory. Religious people see Heaven or Hell, and so on.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:47 am

Kamil wrote:I don't think we can. It just seems so hard to believe, because the brain isn't working during these times, and the people come back with such vivid stories
Now we know you are lying. The brains are still working. Do you have any evidence of someone who is 100% brain dead having an NDE? Link us to that particular case and set out the details. :lol:

(I'm fairly sure now you haven't done any research, nor read Jeffrey longs book yourself)


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