Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

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LogicalSceptic
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Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby LogicalSceptic » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:52 pm

There are a number of things that have happened to me in my life that have been strange.
All of them bar one I can explain away as naturalistic even though I couldn't prove them to have mundane causes.

However, as stated above there was one event (rather a series of events) that I can think of no logical explanation.
I have changed the names of the people in the events I'll describe below.

In the early 1990's my friend Dan and his wife Sarah moved house. Their new house was built around the 1930's and was in the centre of my home town.
The first time we visited I needed to use their bathroom. Once in there I had a really uneasy feeling. In fact I couldn't wait to get out as it felt like I was being watched.

I said nothing. Partly because I felt silly and partly because you don't go to someones new home and say "I feel freaked out when I'm in your bathroom"

Dan and Sarah lived there until the early 2000's and during the 10 years they lived there I hated going to their bathroom. I always felt quite freaked out, often running down the stairs with my zip still open having not washed my hands.
In all this time I never told anyone, not even my wife. I felt too silly.

So in early 2000's Dan and Sarah moved to a new house. In this new house all was fine. They are still there today and all is still fine.

About 5 years after they had moved away from this 'odd' house, one evening my wife and I were chatting to Dan and Sarah in their new home about some other friends of ours (Amy and Nathan) who were house hunting.

Sarah was telling us how it was a real pain for Nathan to go house hunting with Amy because Amy was 'quite psychic'. Amy would walk through the front door of a house they'd arranged a viewing for and if she felt the house wasn't right the viewing would be over in seconds.

Sarah then told me that the first time Amy came round their old house, Amy said "Your have a spirit upstairs, a man who watches people when they are in the bathroom"

At this point, the hairs stood up on the back of my neck and I blurted out what I had felt for the ten years they had lived there that I always felt I was being watched.

Sarah then said she knew about it because her best friend from school Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles because she was so freaked out because she felt she was being watched.

One final thing Sarah mentions is that when they lived there and their daughter was a toddler, she found her daughter one day standing at the foot of the stairs facing up the stairs with her arms held up like she did when she wanted someone to pick her up but Sarah said there was no-one on the stairs.

So it is these series of events that I cannot think of any logical explanation for.
It happened over a period of 10 years, happened to others and Amy wasn't even upstairs in the bathroom and had sensed it.

The other thing I will mention and I'm not sure if this is pure imagination as it was a few years ago now but even though I saw nothing and only sensed it, I could tell you exactly were this 'thing' was standing because of the feeling of being watched. It was at the far end of the upstairs hallway next to the window facing the bathroom door.

Is there a naturalistic explanation for this?

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:42 am

You want us to do the heavy lifting? What do YOU think it was?
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Flash » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:48 am

The naturalistic explanation for what? Your fantastic unverified stories? Tell Amy to get back on her prescription anti-psychotic medications and the rest of you do fewer magic mushrooms or chemicals whichever might be the case and stop believing in BS.

Really? You had run into a ghost who not only turned out to be a peeping Tom but also had a bad case of diarrhea? :mrgreen:
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:54 am

sounds like a spook to me.....
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:18 am

A baby is standing with its arms outstretched?

WHY THATS TOTALLY MIND BOGGLING. sign me up for the spiritual world being confirmed.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:56 am

The proof of the bathroom events can be found on any porn site - just look for `bathroom hidden camera` clips. :flushed:

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:19 am

LogicalSkeptic wrote:...In all this time I never told anyone, not even my wife. I felt too silly...About 5 years after they had moved away from this 'odd' house, one evening my wife and I were chatting to Dan and Sarah in their new home about some other friends of ours (Amy and Nathan) who were house hunting...Amy was 'quite psychic'...Sarah then told me that the first time Amy came round their old house, Amy said "Your[sic] have a spirit upstairs, a man who watches people when they are in the bathroom"...
(Emphasis mine)

Are you absolutely certain you never mentioned anything to anyone about your unsettling sensations?

And what about "Ruth"? That incident had never been discussed by any of your acquaintances?


You see, there are some people who are very observant and also have a pretty good memory and computing skills. Who tend to soak up information like a sponge (often quite unconsciously) and who later (sometimes much later) arrive at things that seem out of the ordinary, even miraculous. Some, like cold readers, train themselves in such, others do it quite naturally and baffle others (and often themselves) with their "psychic" abilities...
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby LogicalSceptic » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:48 am

Are you absolutely certain you never mentioned anything to anyone about your unsettling sensations?

And what about "Ruth"? That incident had never been discussed by any of your acquaintances?


You see, there are some people who are very observant and also have a pretty good memory and computing skills. Who tend to soak up information like a sponge (often quite unconsciously) and who later (sometimes much later) arrive at things that seem out of the ordinary, even miraculous. Some, like cold readers, train themselves in such, others do it quite naturally and baffle others (and often themselves) with their "psychic" abilities...


Thanks for the considered response scrmbldggs.
I've wracked my brains trying to think if I ever told anyone. I genuinely don't believe I did but it's always a possibility.
My friends wife could then have subconsciously 'imagined' the rest of the story or pieced together events and embellished events in her mind.

Our minds are very powerful and can play tricks on us so yours is a decent explanation.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby LogicalSceptic » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:27 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You want us to do the heavy lifting? What do YOU think it was?


I once saw a documentary where a science lab was thought to be haunted.
People working there alone would feel uneasy.
They would see something moving out of the corner of their eye. Turn round and there'd be nothing there.
The mystery was solved when they found that a gadget in the lab ( I can't recall what) was generating and electro-magnetic field which was causing the hallucinations.

That's the best I could come up with.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:31 am

Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles ...


BTW - this is not humanly possible. You can fall down the stairs. You can slide down the stairs. But you cannot run down the stairs with jeans still around your ankles.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby LogicalSceptic » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:16 am

TJrandom wrote:
Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles ...


BTW - this is not humanly possible. You can fall down the stairs. You can slide down the stairs. But you cannot run down the stairs with jeans still around your ankles.


How about "waddle". :)

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:29 am

LogicalSceptic wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles ...


BTW - this is not humanly possible. You can fall down the stairs. You can slide down the stairs. But you cannot run down the stairs with jeans still around your ankles.


How about "waddle". :)

Curly, Larry, and Moe could do it.
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Angel » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:32 pm

First off~ was anybody ever hurt?
If not ~ some people tend to exaggerate
their feelings. What was a light breeze
becomes the gust of wind that have them
an ear infection ...
I sence sprites . It requires a number of
cooperative sprites to make a body image
and maintain it. They were there first so
it's their playground . They share but because
they are so fast~ if you get in their part ~
they will have no choice but to go through you.
Like neutrinos that gathered dust over time.
They get fat so you can sence them.
I have found them friendly. Someone watching over you is hard for some people to handle.
I don't mind. It keeps me a honest liar. ;-)

Oh ya ~ to keep them out ~ block all natural
light into the room. They ride on sunbeams.
Remember the next time you walk into a
bright sunny room and a flying dust bunny
flashes you the pearly whites of his eyes. ;-)

What drives most people insane is the
sudden shock of knowing they will never
be alone again. I was never alone to begin
with. God is there ~ somewhere. But in the
mean time ~ there are the others. I'm not
much on labelling them as they grow and
change so phast. Outgrowing labels.
Last edited by Angel on Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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To believe or
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:33 pm

LogicalSceptic wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles ...


BTW - this is not humanly possible. You can fall down the stairs. You can slide down the stairs. But you cannot run down the stairs with jeans still around your ankles.


How about "waddle". :)


Maybe lie?

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby LogicalSceptic » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:37 pm

TJrandom wrote:
LogicalSceptic wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Ruth once ran down the stairs with her jeans still around her ankles ...


BTW - this is not humanly possible. You can fall down the stairs. You can slide down the stairs. But you cannot run down the stairs with jeans still around your ankles.


How about "waddle". :)


Maybe lie?


Knowing her as long as I have, I would say not. Then again, do we ever really know our friends?

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:03 pm

LogicalSceptic wrote:
Are you absolutely certain you never mentioned anything to anyone about your unsettling sensations?

And what about "Ruth"? That incident had never been discussed by any of your acquaintances?


You see, there are some people who are very observant and also have a pretty good memory and computing skills. Who tend to soak up information like a sponge (often quite unconsciously) and who later (sometimes much later) arrive at things that seem out of the ordinary, even miraculous. Some, like cold readers, train themselves in such, others do it quite naturally and baffle others (and often themselves) with their "psychic" abilities...


Thanks for the considered response scrmbldggs.
I've wracked my brains trying to think if I ever told anyone. I genuinely don't believe I did but it's always a possibility.
My friends wife could then have subconsciously 'imagined' the rest of the story or pieced together events and embellished events in her mind.

Our minds are very powerful and can play tricks on us so yours is a decent explanation.

For all we know you might have eventually breathed a very audible sign of relief, perhaps either when your friends moved, or when the others had been house hunting and it came up again in conversation.

Something to the tunes of, "Boy, am I glad I wont have to go there anymore. I always felt like I was being watched upstairs. Creepy!" ;)
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:37 pm

For a start, this is an incorrect use of the word 'naturalistic'. Naturalistic means related to a semi-religious view of nature. For example, Wiccans have a naturalistic religion, based on an unreal view of nature. The belief that anything 'natural' is superior to that which is not natural is called the naturalistic fallacy. What you meant was 'scientific'.

In fact, the explanation should be psychological. People do get neurotic about things, and often it is difficult to know what caused the original neurosis. But the simple explanation is that it is all a delusion. Nothing strange or unusual about that. Lots of people get similar hang ups. The important thing is to recognise that it is irrational, and unreal. Knowing what is happening inside your head is the first step to controlling it.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Shuca » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:59 am

Before jumping to supernatural here are some other possible explanations:

1. Maybe your friend mentioned “Amy” about their bathroom “experiences” and ask her to look around the house and "Amy" said her "diagnose". If she didn’t than there is a possibility of a coincidence. You said that the house is built in 1930 and old houses tend to generate every kind of associations.
2. Psychology – everybody feels uncomfortable there because the place looks ‘spooky’ and story builds up. I mean it is strange that your friends lived there for 10 years despite the strange feeling.
3. Ultrasound and EM field can generate strange feelings

Maybe you should ask the new owners of the house how do they feel while taking a dump :) Maybe the whole story is just pumped up. Also, why would a 'ghost' lurk in front of somebody's bathroom? I mean, for 10 years or more... That is so boring and stupid... Doesn't he have some better things to do in the afterlife?
Last edited by Shuca on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:11 am

My simple explanation would be noises. If I had a dollar for every person who got up in the middle of the night to look for ghosts or burglars, because of the noise from moving roof members (thermal contraction), I would be rich. Noises can create fear while still being at the edge of perception, so that they are not consciously noticed.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Angel » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:My simple explanation would be noises. If I had a dollar for every person who got up in the middle of the night to look for ghosts or burglars, because of the noise from moving roof members (thermal contraction), I would be rich. Noises can create fear while still being at the edge of perception, so that they are not consciously noticed.


Times when I cannot sleep ~ I take
mental notes on the noises around me.
For knowledge helps once you do fall
asleep.

The reason I can't watch shows about
chasing ghosts. They jump & panic over
ever single noise. Then blur the vision so
you can't see anything .

Is it the presence of God?
There is a presence.
It causes you to feel.
It makes you to LOL
It makes you to cry.
Mona Lisa had this
presence ~ it caused
her to become famous
for the smile it made her
have. Who lies beneath
the surface of you?
To be or not to be?
To believe or
Not to believe?
To be live or
Not to be live?
To exist or
Not to exist?
What was the question?

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Austin Harper » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:27 pm

Lance, I don't want to derail the conversation at hand but I don't want any of the new members to be confused by your post.
Lance Kennedy wrote:For a start, this is an incorrect use of the word 'naturalistic'. Naturalistic means related to a semi-religious view of nature. For example, Wiccans have a naturalistic religion, based on an unreal view of nature.

I have never heard "naturalism" used in the sense you are defining it and I think you are confusing it with nature religion, which is what Wicca is, whereas naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world" (OED). Naturalism can have many uses in this general sense, two of which are spiritual naturalism and religious naturalism, both of which are specifically focused on non-supernatural explanations.
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby ahhell » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:41 pm

Shuca wrote:Before jumping to supernatural here are some other possible explanations:
2. Psychology – everybody feels uncomfortable there because the place looks ‘spooky’ and story builds up. I mean it is strange that your friends lived there for 10 years despite the strange feeling.
This is my best guess, there's just something odd about the way the bathroom is set up that makes people a little uncomfortable, then over the next ten years someone mentions it to someone and nobody remembers the conversation but the do remember there's something weird about the bathroom.

Edit, something as simple as the walls and/or floors not being quite at right angles might do it. Its pretty much how the "vortex" tourist attractions work, a bunch of optical illusions that discombobulate folks.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby scientia » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:29 am

LogicalSceptic wrote:The first time we visited I needed to use their bathroom. Once in there I had a really uneasy feeling. In fact I couldn't wait to get out as it felt like I was being watched.

Based on the work I've done on modeling and explaining human consciousness, this sounds reasonable to me. I don't believe that you were being watched, but the feeling would be understandable. Other people could have had the same feeling for the same reason. That does not indicate to me that the house was haunted or that you were actually being watched.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 am


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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:33 am

Well, I won't be much help to anyone on this subject of 'things that go bump in the night'. As an Atheist, I don't believe in God, the Devil, or any of those little people that run around perving on people in the bathroom.

But I am at a loss to explain what you and others no doubt felt. I think as we all know, the mind is a strange thing. I can remember as a young bloke, teenager, leading another young bloke home via the cemetery. He was scared sh*tless. My point is that there was nothing there other than monuments left to by man to remember others that had finished their time.

I'm an old bloke, 71, and I'm a Vietnam Vet. Now that really has nothing to do with anything, except that in the keyed up state of awareness that we lived in, every sound, every movement, anything at all out of the ordinary, was the enemy coming to get you. some of us learned to 'control' our minds, so to speak, others didn't. I've seen blokes completely out of their minds, imagining things that were just not there. In fact they were shooting those things that weren't there.

So all I'm saying is, whilst I can't explain the phenomena, I can say that I have never found anything there. Yep, many strange experiences in the world, but I'm still waiting for the logical explanation. Until then, I just push them away, or put them on the back burner until I find something that might offer an explanation.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:04 am

Once you understand a little about how the human mind distorts reality, you do not need any extra explanations.

I remember when I was a child, there was an abandoned house in the forest which the other kids told me was haunted. Some of us went to see. I felt nervous the whole time. Guess why?
,,
People think their eyes are like video cameras, their ears like microphones, and their memory like recording tape. No. Absolutely no!
Our eyes send an image to the brain, and the brain does the 'seeing', and adjusts what is seen according to expectation.
Our ears send sound signals to the brain, and the brain does the hearing, and adjusts what is heard according to expectation.
Our memory records an edited version of what is seen and heard, and re edits it every time that memory is recalled, and the continuing editing is done according to changing expectation.

In other words, we frequently see what is not real, hear what is not real, and remember what is not real. Most 'ghostly' experiences need no other explanation.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:04 pm

My daughter, who's now 27, has been an "urban explorer" for about a dozen years. She's also a damn good photographer. In that time, she and her best friend have traveled New England, the Midwest, and parts of the South. They've visited state asylums, tuberculosis sanatoriums, prisons, battlefields, private homes, and schools...all abandoned, all with varying histories. You know, the kind of buildings you habitually see on shows like Ghost Hunter.

Being that she's my daughter, she's rational and a skeptic. She'll be the first to tell you that what's portrayed on shows like Ghost Hunter is pure bovine excrement. Neither she nor her friend have ever, in a dozen years, experienced anything they've not been able to explain. In fact, they've taken the time to hunt down the causes of every weird occurrence.

On one occasion, they heard a loud, repetitive, hollow-sounding booming that would've caused the ghost hunters to pee in their skivvies. They followed the sound to discover that a leak in the roof several floors above had worked its way down to a drip...which was landing on an empty filing cabinet next to a broken window that overlooked a courtyard. That tiny drip of water pinging onto the empty metal filing cabinet was echoing around the enclosed courtyard, then funneling down the hallway to where they initially heard it. No mystery. No "ghost."

Another time, they heard an unidentifiable, inhuman sound that repeated at irregular intervals and tones. It sounded like a human voice attempting to simulate a cat's purring. As creepy as it sounded, they hunted down the source...to discover that the elevator shaft had been appropriated as a nesting site for pigeons. Nothing supernatural about that.

Yet another occasion found them investigating the reason why a door at the end of the hallway they were in suddenly slammed shut. I'm sure you've guessed it. The window behind them at the other end of the hallway was broken, and so was a window in the room with the door. Wind...so paranormal. LOL

I could relate hundreds of these anecdotes, as my daughter and her friends nearly always have one when they return from an exploration trip. But their experiences always have one thing in common: They always hunt down and find a rational, real world explanation for the phenomenon. Always.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:05 pm

I've had visits and healings by invisible beings...all nice ones...they're real...we are all spirits having a temporary physical Earth School experience...(the grey aliens and non-physical beings have said earth is a school)
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Ah yes.... do do do do da da da da... The summer season Twilight Zone replays must be on....

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:10 pm

gorgeous wrote:I've had visits and healings by invisible beings...all nice ones...they're real...we are all spirits having a temporary physical Earth School experience...(the grey aliens and non-physical beings have said earth is a school)

1. How do you know you've been visited if the beings are invisible?
2. If I were you, I'd file a malpractice suit. The healings were faked.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:20 pm

no very real....one knocked on the wall to wake me up to protect my arm that was asleep, had them call my name to wake me, had relatives visited by dead relatives...another adjusted my bad back, healed my bad hip....others...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Poodle » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:38 pm

... fixed my brain ... one doubled my IQ to - oh something or other ...

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Nikki Nyx
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:03 am

:laff:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:29 am

gorgeous wrote:no very real....one spirit turned off my brain to stop it overloading. That spirit never came back, .....
You don't say. How amazing.

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:08 am

:hmm: Poor georgie. Seems the visitors were simply crisis actors...
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Can anyone suggest a naturalistic explanation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:30 am

The realistic explanation for gorgeous imagined experiences is very simple. He she or it is as nutty as a fruit cake.


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