Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:17 am

Off Topic


Please.

Do not take this the wrong way.

Internet brings out the bully in me.

You brought something else out and I don't think I can articulate what that is.

May I ask your age.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:53 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:May I ask your age.
Mid 50s. I studied anthropological prehistory (hominid evolution) & languages, then accounting and then law.

Gnostic Bishop wrote: I am a Gnostic Christian and we are naturalists.
Well, this is probably where we diverge. I see humans as a 195,000 year old species that will eventually become extinct and another species will arise. Humans aren't anything special.

Humans don't use DNA to reproduce. DNA is a mindless large carbon molecule that uses living things to reproduce in what is basically a chemical reaction controlled by normal physics.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:25 am

@ME

It's the genes that are cooperating, not the organisms. The mutual goal is to have offspring.

Cooperation in your sense requires the ability to consciously consent, something that we can't even be sure humans can do.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:27 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote: ... As to the mantis losing his head over a piece of pussy, isn't that what is used to plug the pussy now that the mantis cycle has been successfully completed?


The mantis male is eaten less than 30% of the time. And the female will mate multiple times. So NO.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/mantis1.asp

http://www.keepinginsects.com/praying-mantis/breeding/

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:45 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Cooperation in your sense requires the ability to consciously consent, something that we can't even be sure humans can do.
I totally agree.

ElectricMonk wrote:It's the genes that are cooperating, not the organisms. The mutual goal is to have offspring.
"Phew" This is a complex discussion and I'm not sure if words like cooperation have any use at all.

I'm open minded on this, but I think the way DNA works is complex, but still basically a series of steps of normal chemistry and physics. If I burn hydrogen in oxygen and make water, I can't say the hydrogen and oxygen are cooperating. It not as though the hydrogen and oxygen have any opportunity "not to cooperate".

I think this brings me back to why I don't think innate mating behaviour is a form of cooperation, as I don't think there is any choice "not to cooperate" by the same species.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:28 am

In the biological sense, cooperation equals mutually beneficial action: symbiotes do it, parasites don't.
Genes create organisms that help them carry over copies of themselves into the next generation. Sexual reproduction is the symbiosis of two sets of genes cooperating to create a next generation carrier which maximizes the survival chances through recombination.
Of course, since they would go extinct if they didn't do this, the word cooperating might imply a false sense of choice.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby IrritableBadger » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:11 pm

Hex wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:The trouble with constructing arguments based on an understanding of alien psychology is that we have a sample size of none.

Even having one sample will only tell us the motivations of that species. It'll tell us precious little about other species. So, essentially we'll always be at step one if we ever start engaging with other life forms on other planets.


Determining motivation requires enormous sample size. If you did meet an extraterrestrial it's pretty well certain all his buddies back home lament the day Glarbfix finally snapped and bailed out flying a stolen garbageship.

The First Nation folks and their capitalist cousins from the North Slope of Alaska will tell you anyone alone on the ice is sealsh^+ insane. Or a demon.

Even Earth based expeditionary missions are guided by the fever dreams of a tiny group. The reason they are the only 21 people out there is because everybody else is markedly more sane and had the good sense to stay alive.

Unless we're set upon by an alien force numbering in the millions or billions chances are any aliens you meet will be insane, magically violent or avatars of legendary greed. I certainly wouldn't want our loons to be the models an alien species used to base their knowledge of us on. I can't imagine they feel much different about their loons.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:18 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]May I ask your age.
Mid 50s. I studied anthropological prehistory (hominid evolution) & languages, then accounting and then law.


Interesting choices.

I am surprised you missed that bit about plugging the female so that no other male can get to her.

Gnostic Bishop wrote: I am a Gnostic Christian and we are naturalists.
Well, this is probably where we diverge. I see humans as a 195,000 year old species that will eventually become extinct and another species will arise. Humans aren't anything special.


You may be right as most species that thrived have gone extinct.

I see the fact that we are the most intelligent species to date as something that just might push us to not go extinct.

Time will tell.

From what I understand, there are less intelligent organisms that have been here for millions of years and have yet to go extinct. Chances are just as good for us to be around that long.

Humans don't use DNA to reproduce. DNA is a mindless large carbon molecule that uses living things to reproduce in what is basically a chemical reaction controlled by normal physics.
[/quote]

Your mechanic are spot on but not your conclusion.

Take an organism that does not mate to reproduce. It definitely uses it's DNA program to reproduce. What else does it have to guide it?

I think the same applies to us as some scientists seem to think they have found the gay gene and its DNA, which definitely has a negative effect on a species like ours that must use the opposite sex to reproduce.

If a gene and primarily its DNA can negatively effect reproduction, then the same DNA turned on instead of off can enhance the possibility of reproducing.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:23 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:@ME

It's the genes that are cooperating, not the organisms. The mutual goal is to have offspring.

Cooperation in your sense requires the ability to consciously consent, something that we can't even be sure humans can do.


??

What are you consciously doing when that little guy in your pants starts to grow when a mating possibility is at hand?

I think you are showing consent.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Poodle » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:14 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:Ants do not space travel.


This place is becoming slack.

To claim that ants do not indulge in space travel is blatantly unsupportable - I may even go as far as to accuse you of misarthropy.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:29 pm

Poodle wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:Ants do not space travel.


This place is becoming slack.

To claim that ants do not indulge in space travel is blatantly unsupportable - I may even go as far as to accuse you of misarthropy.


I agree with your word "slack".

My view is more supportable than the statement that ants do space travel.

The support is that none have been discovered.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Poodle » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:36 pm

But we have only a very small area of the universe to sample, GB. I cannot agree that merely because we have signally failed to detect the spacefaring nature of formicism in this backwater of the universe, then this must be true throughout the entire antiverse.

Your view, though representing the popular local opinion, cannot be described as 'more supportable'. As you are normally much better at this than the above shows, I can only assume that you over-imbibed during the festive period.

Good for you.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:20 pm

The more you expand the zone the more tenuous it gets.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:37 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I am surprised you missed that bit about plugging the female so that no other male can get to her.
Which obviously is not an example of cooperation between the male and female and thus against your claim.

Gnostic Bishop wrote: I am a Gnostic Christian and we are naturalists.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Well, this is probably where we diverge. I see humans as a 195,000 year old species that will eventually become extinct and another species will arise. Humans aren't anything special.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:You may be right as most species that thrived have gone extinct. I see the fact that we are the most intelligent species to date as something that just might push us to not go extinct.
Homo Erectus was the most intelligent species on the planet and it went extinct.

Gnostic Bishop wrote:From what I understand, there are less intelligent organisms that have been here for millions of years and have yet to go extinct. Chances are just as good for us to be around that long.
They are creatures in stable environments, like sharks. Modern humans do not live in a stable environment.

Matthew Ellard wrote: Humans don't use DNA to reproduce. DNA is a mindless large carbon molecule that uses living things to reproduce in what is basically a chemical reaction controlled by normal physics.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:Your mechanic are spot on but not your conclusion.Take an organism that does not mate to reproduce. It definitely uses it's DNA program to reproduce. What else does it have to guide it?
DNA. All creatures reproduce using DNA, whether through sexual reproduction or other methods. DNA doesn't care what method of reproduction evolves.

Gnostic Bishop wrote:If a gene and primarily its DNA can negatively effect reproduction, then the same DNA turned on instead of off can enhance the possibility of reproducing.
This sentence makes no sense. DNA doesn't care about what method of reproduction evolves. The "Gay Gene" is actually a normal evolved sexual reproduction strategy called the Kin Selection hypothesis, whereas the resources of creature are redirected at its siblings children to maximise their survival although only 25% of genes are passed down. It's just mathematics.

"Kin selection is the evolutionary strategy that favours the reproductive success of an organism's relatives, even at a cost to the organism's own survival and reproduction. Kin altruism is altruistic behaviour whose evolution is driven by kin selection".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:49 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Cooperation in your sense requires the ability to consciously consent, something that we can't even be sure humans can do.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:What are you consciously doing when that little guy in your pants starts to grow when a mating possibility is at hand?
.....following 500,000,000 years of evolution. DNA doesn't care if you believe you are making a choice or not. What is going to happen to a creature that keeps saying "no" by choice? It becomes extinct. It's pretty simple. It's just maths.


Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.

Have you read "Red Queen"? This book clarifies the points I have made above in layman's terms.

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolut ... 0060556579

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:53 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The more you expand the zone the more tenuous it gets.


Yep. Gawdzilla is right. At best, we humans can set out some really basic rules of how we think aliens will arise and evolve, but we really don't have a clue. Humans are not a good model.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:22 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Humans are not a good model. [/color]

Harumph!

Image
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:43 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Harumph!
Thank you Gawdzilla. ( I really should have used another word other than model. ) :D

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Poodle wrote:But we have only a very small area of the universe to sample, GB. I cannot agree that merely because we have signally failed to detect the spacefaring nature of formicism in this backwater of the universe, then this must be true throughout the entire antiverse.

Your view, though representing the popular local opinion, cannot be described as 'more supportable'. As you are normally much better at this than the above shows,


???

Local?

Is our part of the universe somehow different than other parts of the universe given that conditions were the same everywhere in the beginning before suns and planets began to form?

Are we somehow created from unique star stuff or is start stuff not all the same everywhere?

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:21 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
[color=#000080]Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.


This last is true as men can rape women and vice versa.

As to consent, some years ago I raise rabbits for sale. I offer rabbits as an example of consent or lack of it.

Many times, as they now do with Pandas and other endangered species that do not want to reproduce normally, I have had to help position the female rabbits to accept the male.

Put just about any rodents together of various gender and you will note the frustration some will show when the females just squat a bit and thus prevent penetration.

Regards
DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:25 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote: I am a Gnostic Christian and we are naturalists.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Well, this is probably where we diverge. I see humans as a 195,000 year old species that will eventually become extinct and another species will arise. Humans aren't anything special.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:You may be right as most species that thrived have gone extinct. I see the fact that we are the most intelligent species to date as something that just might push us to not go extinct.
Homo Erectus was the most intelligent species on the planet and it went extinct.


You confuse extinction with evolutionary growth to a new and better form.

We are the new and improved homo erectus.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:53 pm

"Better" and "improved" lie in the evolved eye of the beholder. Of the same tribe. If we could only ask anyone or anything outside our own beingness, I'd be curious as to what would be thought about us.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:07 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:"Better" and "improved" lie in the evolved eye of the beholder. Of the same tribe. If we could only ask anyone or anything outside our own beingness, I'd be curious as to what would be thought about us.


Every species evolves to whatever template is handed up and our evolution does not care what other species would think.

The fact that we are still here and doing better than most species indicates that evolution is working quite well for our species.

A judgement from without the same environment would likely be wrong.

Take pigmy elephants and rhinos for instance, as well as pigmy people found in the fossilized bone of some of the islands, to you and I, those might seem foolish on natures part but if they would have been the usual size, they would have decimated those islands in short order and likely would have gone extinct.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:24 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
[color=#000080]Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.


This last is true as men can rape women and vice versa.

As to consent, some years ago I raise rabbits for sale. I offer rabbits as an example of consent or lack of it.

Many times, as they now do with Pandas and other endangered species that do not want to reproduce normally, I have had to help position the female rabbits to accept the male.

Put just about any rodents together of various gender and you will note the frustration some will show when the females just squat a bit and thus prevent penetration.

Regards
DL


My doe rabbits always wound up pregnant even though they sometimes sat it out as I watched. The bucks always won that one. I don`t think the bucks were frustrated as much as they were simply aroused. The doe had her own pace, not necessarily matched to my interpretation of the signs.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:31 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
[color=#000080]Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.


This last is true as men can rape women and vice versa.

As to consent, some years ago I raise rabbits for sale. I offer rabbits as an example of consent or lack of it.

Many times, as they now do with Pandas and other endangered species that do not want to reproduce normally, I have had to help position the female rabbits to accept the male.

Put just about any rodents together of various gender and you will note the frustration some will show when the females just squat a bit and thus prevent penetration.

Regards
DL


My doe rabbits always wound up pregnant even though they sometimes sat it out as I watched. The bucks always won that one. I don`t think the bucks were frustrated as much as they were simply aroused. The doe had her own pace, not necessarily matched to my interpretation of the signs.


Rabbits will be rabbits but the fact that your doe sat it out shows choice of when and where mating will occur.

When my bucks were denied, they often stomped out of frustration. At least that is what I took that body language to represent, and yes it was from their arousal not finding a home. So to speak.

Regards
DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:35 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:"Better" and "improved" lie in the evolved eye of the beholder. Of the same tribe. If we could only ask anyone or anything outside our own beingness, I'd be curious as to what would be thought about us.


Every species evolves to whatever template is handed up and our evolution does not care what other species would think.

The fact that we are still here and doing better than most species indicates that evolution is working quite well for our species.

A judgement from without the same environment would likely be wrong.

Take pigmy elephants and rhinos for instance, as well as pigmy people found in the fossilized bone of some of the islands, to you and I, those might seem foolish on natures part but if they would have been the usual size, they would have decimated those islands in short order and likely would have gone extinct.

Regards
DL

Well, seems our (logical) thinking wouldn't quite meet on the pigmy anything part, to my understanding things grow to the extend physical laws allow and at/to which they can be supported - or not. Or on the "plan" thing. To me there's no plan, there's only what works and what doesn't work. Within ever changing parameters*. Within a greater whole, too large and lengthy to be fully known by us fleas.

The fact that we are still here and doing better than most species indicates that evolution is working quite well for our species.


Yes, so far it has "helped" us first use and now exploit quite well...

A judgement from without the same environment would likely be wrong.


Kinda like humans think they know best what's best for other things without having a full grasp on the full picture? :-P




* I'm not sure if that can be used here correctly. I meant that if something changes (drastically), parameters also adjust. Does that work?


Edits: Gramma and adding that^ - then shuffling it around the post a bit. :lol:
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:38 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
[color=#000080]Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.


This last is true as men can rape women and vice versa.

As to consent, some years ago I raise rabbits for sale. I offer rabbits as an example of consent or lack of it.

Many times, as they now do with Pandas and other endangered species that do not want to reproduce normally, I have had to help position the female rabbits to accept the male.

Put just about any rodents together of various gender and you will note the frustration some will show when the females just squat a bit and thus prevent penetration.

Regards
DL


My doe rabbits always wound up pregnant even though they sometimes sat it out as I watched. The bucks always won that one. I don`t think the bucks were frustrated as much as they were simply aroused. The doe had her own pace, not necessarily matched to my interpretation of the signs.


Rabbits will be rabbits but the fact that your doe sat it out shows choice of when and where mating will occur.

When my bucks were denied, they often stomped out of frustration. At least that is what I took that body language to represent, and yes it was from their arousal not finding a home. So to speak.

Regards
DL


I always assumed that the stomping and hair pulling was to `jiggle` the doe hormones, and not simply a display of frustration. Much like my singing, flirting, touching, etc. as a randy boy with a new girl some years back. No frustration at all, but rather just playing and enjoying the game.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:32 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:[
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]
scrmbldggs wrote:"Better" and "improved" lie in the evolved eye of the beholder. Of the same tribe. If we could only ask anyone or anything outside our own beingness, I'd be curious as to what would be thought about us.


Every species evolves to whatever template is handed up and our evolution does not care what other species would think.

The fact that we are still here and doing better than most species indicates that evolution is working quite well for our species.

A judgement from without the same environment would likely be wrong.

Take pigmy elephants and rhinos for instance, as well as pigmy people found in the fossilized bone of some of the islands, to you and I, those might seem foolish on natures part but if they would have been the usual size, they would have decimated those islands in short order and likely would have gone extinct.

Regards
DL

Well, seems our (logical) thinking wouldn't quite meet on the pigmy anything part, to my understanding things grow to the extend physical laws allow and at/to which they can be supported - or not. Or on the "plan" thing. To me there's no plan, there's only what works and what doesn't work. Within ever changing parameters*. Within a greater whole, too large and lengthy to be fully known by us fleas.

The fact that we are still here and doing better than most species indicates that evolution is working quite well for our species.


Yes, so far it has "helped" us first use and now exploit quite well...

A judgement from without the same environment would likely be wrong.


Kinda like humans think they know best what's best for other things without having a full grasp on the full picture? :-P


I hear you.
* I'm not sure if that can be used here correctly. I meant that if something changes (drastically), parameters also adjust. Does that work?
[/quote]

That would depend on how big a swing in the environment.

I E. Short stocky people do better in cold climates than tall lanky ones. If the world gets too hot, you will see the short people die out faster than the tall lanky ones as they do not dissipate their body heat as well as tall people.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contracted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:39 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I think you are showing consent.
[color=#000080]Name another species, other than humans, that can offer consent rather than follow innate behavioural activities. You can't. Therefore please stop attempting to impose human behaviour on other species. It's ridiculous and, as Electric Monk pointed out, you can't really say humans have 100% free choice to consent anyway.


This last is true as men can rape women and vice versa.

As to consent, some years ago I raise rabbits for sale. I offer rabbits as an example of consent or lack of it.

Many times, as they now do with Pandas and other endangered species that do not want to reproduce normally, I have had to help position the female rabbits to accept the male.

Put just about any rodents together of various gender and you will note the frustration some will show when the females just squat a bit and thus prevent penetration.

Regards
DL


My doe rabbits always wound up pregnant even though they sometimes sat it out as I watched. The bucks always won that one. I don`t think the bucks were frustrated as much as they were simply aroused. The doe had her own pace, not necessarily matched to my interpretation of the signs.


Rabbits will be rabbits but the fact that your doe sat it out shows choice of when and where mating will occur.

When my bucks were denied, they often stomped out of frustration. At least that is what I took that body language to represent, and yes it was from their arousal not finding a home. So to speak.

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DL


I always assumed that the stomping and hair pulling was to `jiggle` the doe hormones, and not simply a display of frustration. Much like my singing, flirting, touching, etc. as a randy boy with a new girl some years back. No frustration at all, but rather just playing and enjoying the game.


Well, not speaking rabbit, :D I can only go by what I have seen and what I have seen is a buck stomping and nipping one unresponsive doe, then totally ignore her when I introduced another more willing doe. :D

I do not recall any of my does rising to the occasion after being nipped by a stomping buck.

In that way, they seem to be quite human female like. :lol:

Perhaps if I stop beating my wife I will get more action. :mrgreen:

Regards
DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:17 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:You confuse extinction with evolutionary growth to a new and better form.

You really don't understand evolution do you? There is no such thing as a "better" form, in evolution. What happens is that mutations randomly enter the gene pool and if the environment changes some of those genes may allow a new species to arise better adapted for that new environment.

Again, you are attempting to place human characteristics onto a mathematical phenomena.


Gnostic Bishop wrote:We are the new and improved homo erectus.
No we are not. We are a different species.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:33 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]You confuse extinction with evolutionary growth to a new and better form.

You really don't understand evolution do you? There is no such thing as a "better" form, in evolution. What happens is that mutations randomly enter the gene pool and if the environment changes some of those genes may allow a new species to arise better adapted for that new environment.

Again, you are attempting to place human characteristics onto a mathematical phenomena.


Nope. I just say it like it is.
This link says what I would say of all of the extinct and ancient human forms if they were still here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZIJrRvqqbo

Gnostic Bishop wrote:We are the new and improved homo erectus.
No we are not. We are a different species.
[/quote]

I am not going to argue the meaning of words.

See above.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:24 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:You confuse extinction with evolutionary growth to a new and better form.

Matthew Ellard wrote:You really don't understand evolution do you? There is no such thing as a "better" form, in evolution. Again, you are attempting to place human characteristics onto a mathematical phenomena.


Gnostic Bishop wrote:Nope. I just say it like it is.
You aren't even close. 2,500,000 years ago there were five different hominid species living on the planet at the same time. Neither were "better" than the other. They were simply different. Neanderthals had a bigger brain size than we modern humans do today. We modern humans simply have different "wiring", not better wiring

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:You confuse extinction with evolutionary growth to a new and better form.

Matthew Ellard wrote:You really don't understand evolution do you? There is no such thing as a "better" form, in evolution. Again, you are attempting to place human characteristics onto a mathematical phenomena.


Gnostic Bishop wrote:Nope. I just say it like it is.
You aren't even close. 2,500,000 years ago there were five different hominid species living on the planet at the same time. Neither were "better" than the other. They were simply different. Neanderthals had a bigger brain size than we modern humans do today. We modern humans simply have different "wiring", not better wiring


The fittest for the environments at hand survived and became us. I don't really think it maters how many variations was tried as our line became the fittest while the others went extinct.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: You aren't even close. 2,500,000 years ago there were five different hominid species living on the planet at the same time. Neither were "better" than the other. They were simply different. Neanderthals had a bigger brain size than we modern humans do today. We modern humans simply have different "wiring", not better wiring


Gnostic Bishop wrote: The fittest for the environments at hand survived and became us. I don't really think it maters how many variations was tried as our line became the fittest while the others went extinct.

This is a classical error. Do you know how much genetic variety there already is in our species gene pool? You are assuming a previous species became "us" which is exactly what didn't happen. It was the new mutations that allowed for more variety in the previous species. The previous species simply split into different environments. That there is only one species of hominid ( modern humans) today confuses people. If there were two or three species of hominids living today, each adapted to its own environment, how could you say one was "better" than the other?

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: You aren't even close. 2,500,000 years ago there were five different hominid species living on the planet at the same time. Neither were "better" than the other. They were simply different. Neanderthals had a bigger brain size than we modern humans do today. We modern humans simply have different "wiring", not better wiring


Gnostic Bishop wrote: The fittest for the environments at hand survived and became us. I don't really think it maters how many variations was tried as our line became the fittest while the others went extinct.

This is a classical error. Do you know how much genetic variety there already is in our species gene pool? You are assuming a previous species became "us" which is exactly what didn't happen. It was the new mutations that allowed for more variety in the previous species. The previous species simply split into different environments. That there is only one species of hominid ( modern humans) today confuses people. If there were two or three species of hominids living today, each adapted to its own environment, how could you say one was "better" than the other?


Some of us have DNA sequences that match Neanderthal genes. We are whatever is left of all the other hominids that came before us.

Run that little clip again and just insert the various names we have called them. The same logic applies that Dawkins is using in his presentation.

Make our family tree and just insert your various hominid labels the same way the way he does with the various apes etc..

If you can refute his method of thought, then I will listen carefully indeed.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:21 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:Some of us have DNA sequences that match Neanderthal genes. We are whatever is left of all the other hominids that came before us.
.....plus new gene mutations that entered the gene pool. You forgot that bit. :D

Gnostic Bishop wrote:If you can refute his method of thought, then I will listen carefully indeed.
Dawkins already confirmed my earlier statement. Both humans and chimps co-exist on the planet. Neither is "better" than the other, as you claimed. They are just "different". living in different environments.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:18 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]Some of us have DNA sequences that match Neanderthal genes. We are whatever is left of all the other hominids that came before us.
.....plus new gene mutations that entered the gene pool. You forgot that bit. :D


I did not so much forget that as did not think it relevant, but yes mutations via DNA damage is an ongoing phenomenon.

Gnostic Bishop wrote:If you can refute his method of thought, then I will listen carefully indeed.
Dawkins already confirmed my earlier statement. Both humans and chimps co-exist on the planet. Neither is "better" than the other, as you claimed. They are just "different". living in different environments. [/quote]

Indeed. They diverged just as we have. The only difference is that those we diverged from have gone extinct.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:45 pm

Statistically speaking, every species that has evolved on earth has gone extinct.
Humans haven't been around long enough to even begin counting.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:41 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Statistically speaking, every species that has evolved on earth has gone extinct.
Humans haven't been around long enough to even begin counting.


Not quite, if I recall correctly, but I have no argument. You could have phrased it better because we evolved here and are not extinct.

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DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:06 pm

Yet....


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