Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:02 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: The fact that, even at sub light speeds, it would take an expansionist species no more than a few million years to totally colonise the entire galaxy, ...

You keep saying this. The galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. Imagine a species would totally stay on focus for a million years. At one/tenth the speed of light it would take them a million years to CROSS the galaxy. But why would they spread out like that? Because we would? "Aliens think like us" syndrome.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby ahhell » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:35 pm

Its not crazy to think that if evolutionary pressure produced an intelligent species, that it would produce an intelligent species that saw the merit in spreading out. Evolutionary pressure results in species that preserve their genes into the next generation. Since every planet and every star is doomed to failure, an intelligent species that was evolved to prize preserving its genes would see the merit in spreading out across multiple star systems.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:44 pm

ahhell wrote:Its not crazy to think that if evolutionary pressure produced an intelligent species, that it would produce an intelligent species that saw the merit in spreading out. Evolutionary pressure results in species that preserve their genes into the next generation. Since every planet and every star is doomed to failure, an intelligent species that was evolved to prize preserving its genes would see the merit in spreading out across multiple star systems.

Based on a sample of ONE.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby ahhell » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:12 pm

Its the only sample we have. If evolution doesn't favor species that want to survive, what else would it favor?

Is there an actual flaw in my reasoning or are you just saying, we can't know because our small sample size? True but not an especially useful or interesting point. It means we can't even be sure if life exist elsewhere. The universe is infinitely big but abiogenesis may be infinitely unlikely so infinite/infinite = 1. I know math doesn't work that way but you get my drift.

IMHO, there is sound reasons to believe any species that reached the technological point where they could colonize other star systems , would colonize other star systems. Simple math really. Evolution favors survivors, if you get to the point where you can move, you'll also realize that one day your star will die along with everything in the solar system including your descendants, so you will move.

Move in this context just means send some representative genetic stock to the closest viable star system. Doesn't mean they'd eventually get to us, just that they would almost certainly get to more than one planet or die off before they could.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:16 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You keep saying this. The galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. Imagine a species would totally stay on focus for a million years. At one/tenth the speed of light it would take them a million years to CROSS the galaxy. But why would they spread out like that? Because we would? "Aliens think like us" syndrome.


The galaxy is, in effect, 70,000 light years across for humans, since we are 30,000 light years from the closer edge, and 70,000 from the further. The speed that can be achieved depends on the method used and how advanced the technology is. An ion drive system could reach 0.1 to 0.2 of light speed. A fusion torch or Orion system could, in theory, reach half light speed. Calculate for yourself how long it would take to cross 70,000 light years.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:59 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You keep saying this. The galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. Imagine a species would totally stay on focus for a million years. At one/tenth the speed of light it would take them a million years to CROSS the galaxy. But why would they spread out like that? Because we would? "Aliens think like us" syndrome.


The galaxy is, in effect, 70,000 light years across for humans, since we are 30,000 light years from the closer edge, and 70,000 from the further. The speed that can be achieved depends on the method used and how advanced the technology is. An ion drive system could reach 0.1 to 0.2 of light speed. A fusion torch or Orion system could, in theory, reach half light speed. Calculate for yourself how long it would take to cross 70,000 light years.

Jesus {!#%@} Christ, can you do nothing but quibble? ARE WE THE ALIEN RACE THAT'S GOING TO COLONIZE THE WHOLE GALAXY?
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:40 am

Not a quibble.

If we are typical, then we can expect that alien race also to be somewhat in from the edge. The potential velocity it might achieve is variable depending on method, and it could reach any part of the galaxy in a time period of 140,000 years to 700,000 years.

If we assume the alien population grows at a doubling each century, then it will increase its numbers by 1000 fold each millennium. This is conservative. Human population increased by more than three fold in the last 100 years. Anyway, population growth rate will not be limiting. The assumption it will take a million years to fully colonise the galaxy is borne out by this data. Of course, it is a million years plus or minus a rather large amount. Depending on your assumptions, it could take anything from 250,000 years to 10 million. Which does not matter, since even 10 million is a mere eyeblink of time against the age of our galaxy.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:37 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Indeed, but it is all put there to select the fittest of our species. If that is not the guiding factor of evolution, then what do you think is?
This is a common error people make. There is no fittest human that will breed more children than other humans. That's not how evolution works.

New mutations for characteristic "X" will enter the gene pool and be reproduced in several individuals simultaneously. New Mutations for characteristic "Y" will enter the gene pool and be reproduced in several individuals simultaneously ....and so on and so on.

For the evolution of language, it had to be an existing gene characteristic in several individual simultaneously. Yet each one of those individuals also has both good and bad other mutations, X, Y, Z and so on. You cannot say "Well that individual is more fit to survive that this other individual" due to Arrow's impossibility theorem.

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I thought we were talking of intelligent beings and not brainless viruses. You have been watching the Alien series I bet.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Again, intelligence is not a goal of evolution. Migrating birds have evolved reduced intelligence, as a trade off for less weight and oxygen use, to allow for longer sustained flight.


Gnostic Bishop wrote: Yet our intelligence has made us the top of the food chain and allow for our best and brightest to rise to the top.
.......for only 195,000 years. The Goblin Shark species is 118,000,000 years old. From DNA's point of view regarding self reproduction, the Goblin Shark is the winner.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:52 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
If we are typical, then we can expect that alien race also to be somewhat in from the edge.

Show we are typical. :lol:
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Angel » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:01 pm

Maybe aliens are demons that couldn't
get a skin? They are nakies hehe

They come here looking for a date to
make them a skinned baby suit.
:beamup: :beamup:
They want to be real boys.
With good mommies and daddies. <3
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:34 pm

Hell's Angel posts again?
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:51 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.


Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:53 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.


Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?

Me! Me! Me!

Ahem, a species with alphas and boat-loads of lesser species to do all the work.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:58 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.


Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?

Me! Me! Me!

Ahem, a species with alphas and boat-loads of lesser species to do all the work.

How would such a situation have the stability necessary? Lesser species doing all the work seem to have a tendency to be revolting (I concede that our sample size is too small to prove anything). It seems to me that if the lesser species is smart enough to do the work, they are smart enough to figure out how to overthrow their oppressors.

Horses and dogs are good for certain tasks, but building complex machines is not one of them.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:02 pm

You ever see a shepherd working some sheep dogs? Just extend that out. It's only hard if you don't want it to be possible.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:09 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:13 am

They could get together only to breed and live alone otherwise. They could have hordes of robots and lesser races to do their work.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:52 am

Of course.
This is the thing about our present ignorance. The reality could be any of many different scenarios.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:42 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: ... Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Sure – asteroid riding alien life on ejecta from planetary collisions. No cooperation needed at all. (I think that is how gorgeous got here…. :lol: )

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Angel » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:51 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.


Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?

Me! Me! Me!

Ahem, a species with alphas and boat-loads of lesser species to do all the work.

How would such a situation have the stability necessary? Lesser species doing all the work seem to have a tendency to be revolting (I concede that our sample size is too small to prove anything). It seems to me that if the lesser species is smart enough to do the work, they are smart enough to figure out how to overthrow their oppressors.

Horses and dogs are good for certain tasks, but building complex machines is not one of them.


Just because one knows how to exterminate
the oppressors does not mean one will.
You want to be entertained ~ go to a movie.
Intelligent beings are not about to put on a
show for you any time soon. You peeps get
what you give.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Angel » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:56 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.


But you are the alien life form on this
planet. All else came before you.
Trying to pass the buck again ;-)
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:12 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:They could get together only to breed and live alone otherwise. They could have hordes of robots and lesser races to do their work.


One boss plus hordes of minions per spaceship - - ok. Polyboss ships would require enough cooperation to avoid civil war.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.

Ants come to mind.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:14 pm

Angel wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.


But you are the alien life form on this
planet. All else came before you.
Trying to pass the buck again ;-)

Everything currently alive evolved from something which came before. By your thinking, all life on Earth is alien. It makes the term 'alien' meaningless.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:15 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:They could get together only to breed and live alone otherwise. They could have hordes of robots and lesser races to do their work.


One boss plus hordes of minions per spaceship - - ok. Polyboss ships would require enough cooperation to avoid civil war.

The Master Moties are an example of this kind of species.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Angel » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:07 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Angel wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.


But you are the alien life form on this
planet. All else came before you.
Trying to pass the buck again ;-)

Everything currently alive evolved from something which came before. By your thinking, all life on Earth is alien. It makes the term 'alien' meaningless.


It has so many meanings to begin with
that it's already meaningless .
Who made up the word alien
anyway~ an alien? Hehe
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:GB

Altruism is not even universal among our own species. It is seriously naive to believe that an intelligent alien must be altruistic towards other sapient species. If such a predatory and exploitive species reached Earth, then we probably would never have evolved in the first place. The fact that there is no sign of such a species (or any intelligent alien) reaching Earth probably means they did not. The fact that, even at sub light speeds, it would take an expansionist species no more than a few million years to totally colonise the entire galaxy, and that the galaxy has been around for more than 8 billion years, suggests that such alien species are very rare.


Or the speed of light has yet to be breached.

But hey, if you want to believe that a non-altruistic species can somehow cooperate enough to get off a planet then have at it.

If you have ever seen this movie, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhNuXvlCTTc you would se how silly such a notion is.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:17 pm

ahhell wrote:Its not crazy to think that if evolutionary pressure produced an intelligent species, that it would produce an intelligent species that saw the merit in spreading out. Evolutionary pressure results in species that preserve their genes into the next generation. Since every planet and every star is doomed to failure, an intelligent species that was evolved to prize preserving its genes would see the merit in spreading out across multiple star systems.


No argument.

But that does not explain why we have yet to be visited by one of these, likely many, species.

The O.P. does offer an explanation that is quite plausible, logical and reasonable.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:22 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:To think that another species would go against it's own evolutionary programming, --- that defaults to doing good to others, --- as that is the best survival tactic, --- is rather droll.


I have to pull you up on this. Humans display altruism (Equity theory in Behaviour) because we are a co-operative species and work in groups. That's why all animals that work in groups display what can be perceived as altruism. Worker bees die for the benefit of the colony, Lions share food for the pride and humans help other humans. Altruism is simply an evolved mechanism to allow for working in group. So is language in humans.


All true and agrees with what I said.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gnostic Bishop » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:24 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:[

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Yet our intelligence has made us the top of the food chain and allow for our best and brightest to rise to the top.
.......for only 195,000 years. The Goblin Shark species is 118,000,000 years old. From DNA's point of view regarding self reproduction, the Goblin Shark is the winner.


We could have it go extinct if we so chose.

We are the top of the food chain regardless of how old our species is.

Regards
DL

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:But hey, if you want to believe that a non-altruistic species can somehow cooperate enough to get off a planet then have at it.



The altruism I referred to was altruism towards other species. Lots of examples here on Earth of species altruistic towards themselves, but aggressive to others. Someone mentioned ants as an example.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:45 pm

Angel wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Angel wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Can you show how an alien species could build a star-spanning civilization without being a cooperative species?


Absolutely not!

But the cooperation need only be within their own species. Their approach to other species could be 100% homicidal as long as they can cooperate within themselves.

Based on the data we have, which is essentially zero, we have no reason to assume that alien civilisations will necessarily be friendly or altruistic outside their own people.


But you are the alien life form on this
planet. All else came before you.
Trying to pass the buck again ;-)

Everything currently alive evolved from something which came before. By your thinking, all life on Earth is alien. It makes the term 'alien' meaningless.


It has so many meanings to begin with
that it's already meaningless .
Who made up the word alien
anyway~ an alien? Hehe


Online Entomology Dictionary wrote:alien (adj.) Look up alien at Dictionary.commid-14c., "strange, foreign," from Old French alien "alien, strange, foreign; an alien, stranger, foreigner," from Latin alienus "of or belonging to another, foreign, alien, strange," also, as a noun, "a stranger, foreigner," adjectival form of alius "(an)other" (see alias (adv.)). Meaning "not of the Earth" first recorded 1920. An alien priory (c. 1500) is one owing obedience to a mother abbey in a foreign country.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:48 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:But hey, if you want to believe that a non-altruistic species can somehow cooperate enough to get off a planet then have at it.



The altruism I referred to was altruism towards other species. Lots of examples here on Earth of species altruistic towards themselves, but aggressive to others. Someone mentioned ants as an example.

Somebody hasn't read the case study title The Mote In God's Eye, I see.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:54 pm

Gnostic Bishop thinks that the explanation he put up in the OP is plausible, logical, and reasonable.

OH how we like to deceive ourselves!

His explanation is that humans are too chaotic in our society, so that the aliens would not bother. Just turn that on its ear, and think how we would respond if the situation was reversed. If humans found an alien civilisation that is chaotic and disorganised, how would we respond? Well, we have done that numerous times already, right here on planet Earth, and we ALWAYS intervene, whether that is wise or not. Why should aliens be different? Duh!!

The simplest explanation for why we have not been visited is just that civilised aliens are few and far between.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:56 pm

To Gawdzilla,
Who thinks that fiction is fact.
Moties are not a case history. They are simply what Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle dreamed up out of their fertile imaginations. Well written and entertaining, but not real.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:01 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Gawdzilla,
Who thinks that fiction is fact.
Moties are not a case history. They are simply what Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle dreamed up out of their fertile imaginations. Well written and entertaining, but not real.

You are quite an idiot in defense of your version of reality, aren't you? Mote was a case study, a lot of scifi is sociological in nature. I did a semester on that topic when I was at Purdue. Did well enough to get BAs in Psych and Soc.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:44 pm

Gawdzilla

It is still fiction.
Quoting fiction in order to make a point in a (mostly) factual discussion is not valid.

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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:04 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gawdzilla

It is still fiction.
Quoting fiction in order to make a point in a (mostly) factual discussion is not valid.

You insist on being a pedantic prick? You need a laxative.
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Re: Why we have yet to be contacted by aliens.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:59 am

Gawdzilla.

I might be pedantic, but I am not wrong.
If you want a reference to make a point, choosing a work of fiction is not real credible. You might as well quote from the bible.


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