A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 21, 2017 4:57 pm

No.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm

The top imaj in your alien collection iz from the debunked Alien Autopsy, Alx.

I got wun for you!

ALEIN SNO copy.jpg
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 21, 2017 10:18 pm

No, I'm not bumping up your hit counter. Post the one you think most likely and we'll have a look. Or not.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun May 21, 2017 11:37 pm

Thank you. I enjoyed the series of alien UFO photos.

I have one lighthearted comment. Most of the alien UFOs in the photos are not horizontal in relationship to the ground. It is as though the UFOs are banking like normal aircraft, that use lift from their wings to turn corners. Obviously these UFOs don't have wings

I think the secondary reason for this, is psychology. The forgers of the photos are trying to recreate a flying object and the only flying objects they have experience of are normal aircraft, which bank when turning. Therefore they have banking UFOs.

However, I think the primary reason for this is that it is really hard to sticky tape string to the top of a model and get the model to hang exactly horizontally. I know. I've tried.
:D

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 22, 2017 12:48 am

A little problem with that, Matt iz that you cant tell its banking if you dont no that its turning. Hard to tell in a foto.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 1:00 am

JO 753 wrote:A little problem with that, Matt iz that you cant tell its banking if you dont no that its turning. Hard to tell in a foto.

The Alien UFOs in most of the photos simply aren't horizontal to the ground. Why would a UFO have to bank at all?

I first came across this from watching submarine movies. In movies the submarines bank left or right as they turn, because it "looks right" to a movie audience. But real submarines don't actually do this. They turn because their rudder has turned. If they banked, the angle of the rudder would make them dive deeper.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 22, 2017 1:19 am

They arent nesuserily banking. If they control gravity, they dont haf to be at any particular orientation to the ground.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 2:14 am

JO 753 wrote:They arent nesuserily banking. If they control gravity, they dont haf to be at any particular orientation to the ground.
Landing must be fun then. :D
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 22, 2017 4:22 am

Nise pik. Did you make it?
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 4:31 am

JO 753 wrote:Nise pik. Did you make it?
It is a nice picture. I certainly do like good fake UFO photos

If ever I had to fake an alien UFO, the last thing I would do is use a flying saucer shaped thing. I think the whole aim is to create such a strange "thingee" that no would would bother to try to understand how it worked.

I thought the star gate in "Contact" was pretty good, as it didn't make any sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSaO9VGjLXc

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 22, 2017 4:45 am

It makes sens to me.

It basicly chops thru reality in 4 dimensionz.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 4:53 am

JO 753 wrote:It makes sens to me. It basicly chops thru reality in 4 dimensionz.

That's good news. The next time I run into one, I will know what it is. :D

"Nothing to see here folks, ....nothing to see...."

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Nobrot » Mon May 22, 2017 11:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
JO 753 wrote:A little problem with that, Matt iz that you cant tell its banking if you dont no that its turning. Hard to tell in a foto.

The Alien UFOs in most of the photos simply aren't horizontal to the ground. Why would a UFO have to bank at all?

I first came across this from watching submarine movies. In movies the submarines bank left or right as they turn, because it "looks right" to a movie audience. But real submarines don't actually do this. They turn because their rudder has turned. [color=#800080] If they banked, the angle of the rudder would make them dive deeper.
[/color]

Now that..... Never occurred to me, and so bloody obvious after a moments thought.

Edit. To underline the pertinent bit, I can't make the colour thingy work.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 22, 2017 11:39 am

Nobrot wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
JO 753 wrote:A little problem with that, Matt iz that you cant tell its banking if you dont no that its turning. Hard to tell in a foto.

The Alien UFOs in most of the photos simply aren't horizontal to the ground. Why would a UFO have to bank at all?

I first came across this from watching submarine movies. In movies the submarines bank left or right as they turn, because it "looks right" to a movie audience. But real submarines don't actually do this. They turn because their rudder has turned. If they banked, the angle of the rudder would make them dive deeper.

Now that..... Never occurred to me, and so bloody obvious after a moments thought.

Edit. To underline the pertinent bit, I can't make the colour thingy work.

Just remove Matthew's compulsive blueness. Or use a different color than he does.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Nobrot » Mon May 22, 2017 12:03 pm

That's another thing that didn't occur to me. :D

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 22, 2017 12:12 pm

Nobrot wrote:That's another thing that didn't occur to me. :D

I have a script that converts Matthew's font color to paisley, just for the fun of it.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Nobrot » Mon May 22, 2017 12:16 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Nobrot wrote:That's another thing that didn't occur to me. :D

I have a script that converts Matthew's font color to paisley, just for the fun of it.

Our eye'ses they hurts us.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Poodle » Mon May 22, 2017 12:36 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:... In movies the submarines bank left or right as they turn, because it "looks right" to a movie audience. But real submarines don't actually do this. They turn because their rudder has turned. If they banked, the angle of the rudder would make them dive deeper. [/color]

True, young Glasshopper (does that still work as a reference?). But in practice, the dive planes are used in opposition to assist the turn, and that does entail a bank of a few degrees - probably not enough to be felt on board. I know this to be true from one of my previous incarnations as a technical author. I knew it would come in handy one day.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 11:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:... In movies the submarines bank left or right as they turn, because it "looks right" to a movie audience. But real submarines don't actually do this. They turn because their rudder has turned. If they banked, the angle of the rudder would make them dive deeper.

Poodle wrote:True, young Glasshopper (does that still work as a reference?). But in practice, the dive planes are used in opposition to assist the turn, and that does entail a bank of a few degrees - probably not enough to be felt on board. I know this to be true from one of my previous incarnations as a technical author. I knew it would come in handy one day.


Well.....Let us do a proper skeptic forum show. I'll go away and try find some evidence for my claim. (Shock horror). :D

My claim is that the sail exists on the top of submarines to keep them upright and that if the diving planes are depressed and risen in opposite directions they are then fighting against the rudder which would then be making the sub dive deeper and the sail which keeps the submarine upright. It is more efficient to simply turn the rudder.

However.......I have to provide evidence of my claim.
:D
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 22, 2017 11:39 pm

The sail is to provide a place above the water line where lookouts and the captain can observe. It's not used as a literal sail.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 11:51 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The sail is to provide a place above the water line where lookouts and the captain can observe. It's not used as a literal sail.
I didn't mean it captures the wind to move the sub. It contains air to keep the sub upright. If subs didn't have sails they would roll around their axis like a log. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOeHB_RrSRs

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 23, 2017 12:00 am

Could you explain how they stay upright when the sail is above water, please? I ask because right now you don't know jack {!#%@} about submarines.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 23, 2017 3:15 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Could you explain how they stay upright when the sail is above water, please? I ask because right now you don't know jack {!#%@} about submarines.
Gawdzilla. That was a joke. Nothing more. :frown:

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Evidence Submarines don't bank underwater

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 23, 2017 3:42 am

There are two parts to this. Most of my information comes from WWII submarines.

Hydroplanes / Banking underwater
Firstly, the left and right sides of the bow and stern hydroplanes are not independent. There is one control for the stern hydroplanes and one control for the bow hydroplanes. There is one motor controlling the both bow planes (left & right) and one motor for controlling the stern bow planes (left & right.) That means the bow planes cannot be used to bank a WWII submarine underwater. This was my first claim.
Bow and stern controls.jpg
Bow and stern controls 2.jpg


Secondly, the Wikipedia page on Hydroplanes states
Diving planes, also known as hydroplanes, are control surfaces found on a submarine which allow the vessel to pitch its bow and stern up or down to assist in the process of submerging or surfacing the boat, as well as controlling depth when submerged That does not indicate in anyway that the hydroplanes are used in turning underwater.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_plane

Thirdly, the "Fleet submarine" website also states the same for modern submarines.Vertical motion through the water is controlled by the bow and stern planes. These are horizontal rudders, attached in pairs to either side of the hull, at bow and stern. (Newer American submarines now place the bow planes on the fairwater—what is commonly called the “conning tower” or “sail”—instead of the bow.) Angling these planes up or down causes the boat to rise or sink. The boat itself is normally kept as close as practical to neutral buoyancy, which is the point at which it will neither rise nor sink. The flow of water over the planes allows the commander to “fly” the boat through the water.

In practice, the stern planes are normally used to control the angle of the boat in the water, while the bow planes are used to make it rise or sink. Most World War II submarines used a separate operator for the bow and stern planes. Modern boat designs often combine the rudder and planes controls in an aircraft-type yoke, with a single operator for all control surfaces. (A design first seen in experimental German designs during World War II, where the yoke was literally taken from Stuka spare parts.)

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/dynamics.html

Does the sail keep the boat upright underwater?
I did not find a direct statement saying this. However, if the planes (left & right) cannot be controlled independently, then it must be ballast and buoyancy. I then confirmed that the sail is a buoyancy element on this website
submarine centre of gravity.jpg


Falsifying my Claim What I am looking for is anything that states the left and right planes of a modern submarine can be configured independently. That's what I'm looking for.

Gawdzilla. I'm not claiming to be an expert on submarines. I am simply considering the physics. Any banking of a submarine,underwater, would make the rudder force the sub down further. That didn't make sense.....so I looked it up.
:D
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 23, 2017 7:11 am

....and.....I just found out.....modern submarines have the hydroplanes in the sail to reduce drag when on the surface. Previously there was command equipment in the sail and the hydroplanes were on the bow. The hydroplanes only go up and down together, otherwise the "roll" is putting stress on the sail and not the axis of the body of the submarine. Therefore there is no banking underwater.
Sail hydroplanes.jpg
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Poodle » Tue May 23, 2017 11:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:[color=#000080]....and.....I just found out.....modern submarines have the hydroplanes in the sail to reduce drag when on the surface...


Not true, Matthew. Most, if not all, UK subs have bow-mounted planes. They're on the bit of the bow which is, like the sail, above the waterline when the vessel is on the surface. This is a fair old limb you're going out on.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 23, 2017 11:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Could you explain how they stay upright when the sail is above water, please? I ask because right now you don't know jack {!#%@} about submarines.
Gawdzilla. That was a joke. Nothing more. :frown:

Okay then. But remember I'm a USN historian.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 23, 2017 11:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:....and.....I just found out.....modern submarines have the hydroplanes in the sail to reduce drag when on the surface. Previously there was command equipment in the sail and the hydroplanes were on the bow. The hydroplanes only go up and down together, otherwise the "roll" is putting stress on the sail and not the axis of the body of the submarine. Therefore there is no banking underwater. Sail hydroplanes.jpg

It also gives the nearly naked Japanese lady pearl divers some place to jump from. :mrgreen:
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 23, 2017 4:53 pm

I dont no how much G fors a sub can create in a turn, but it woud seem to make sens to add sum tilt to help the sailorz stand a wok without having to lean.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 23, 2017 5:14 pm

JO 753 wrote:I dont no how much G fors a sub can create in a turn, but it woud seem to make sens to add sum tilt to help the sailorz stand a wok without having to lean.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 23, 2017 5:26 pm

!
Looks like it got jacked by teenajerz and they are on a joy ride!
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 23, 2017 5:39 pm

JO 753 wrote:!
Looks like it got jacked by teenajerz and they are on a joy ride!

They're testing the stability of the ship. This one's not yet been accepted by the USN, it's on its sea trials, designed to find out if everything works.

BTW, I have walked on walls in heavy weather. Halfway up them at times. You adapt.
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 23, 2017 11:26 pm

Poodle wrote: Not true, Matthew. Most, if not all, UK subs have bow-mounted planes. They're on the bit of the bow which is, like the sail, above the waterline when the vessel is on the surface. This is a fair old limb you're going out on.
I understand that. Our new French attack submarines and old self made Collins class listening post submarines have hydroplanes in the sail. . However I have only found evidence that the hydroplanes turn up and down together and one mechanism moves the left and right hydroplanes together. I haven't found any evidence anywhere that subs bank underwater or that left and right hydroplanes can turn independently. I did find evidence that the sail or conning tower is a buoyancy factor that keeps a submarine stable when underwater. Remember, I'm finding this out as I go. My original point was that banking underwater would be forcing a buoyant sail "off centre", wasting energy and making the rudder force the sub deeper, when there is no need. :D
HMAS_Rankin_2007.jpg


Gawdzilla wrote: Okay then. But remember I'm a USN historian.
Yep and that's why I have to get it right, because I know you can see through bull-shit.

Where I screwed up, was I was about to add a "Land of the Giants" TV show poster above the two men "log rolling" video and say "Giants capture the USA's first submarine without a conning tower" and then the phone rang so I had to go away for three hours. I didn't get to finish the post.
:D
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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 23, 2017 11:36 pm

JO 753 wrote:I dont no how much G fors a sub can create in a turn, but it woud seem to make sens to add sum tilt to help the sailorz stand a wok without having to lean.


That makes sense. However, I do not know if the weapons systems and "arrays" need to be upright all the time, or if the weapons systems even work while turning. I simply do not know.

(Does anyone here want to steal USN, Royal Navy or Russian top secret weapons specifications? I'll pass. ) :D

Crew comfort is probably very important but the whole point of having subs is because they are weapons.

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Re: A website to show to those who think UFOs are BS

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 24, 2017 12:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:(Does anyone here want to steal USN, Royal Navy or Russian top secret weapons specifications? I'll pass. ) :D

Ask Lord Orange Marmalade, he'll give them to you.
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