Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:09 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:..... the more knowledge I learn, the freer and more fulfilled I am, because knowledge is power.
I agree. Knowledge is power. It's that simple.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:12 pm

Knowledge is not power if you have no choice. More like potential energy.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:28 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:People who believe in spirituality have a lot to lose when proven wrong, usually it’s their sense of worthiness and purpose, it’s like a survival instinct to them to protect it and deny any other explanations. G is a text book example of it.
Spot on. Self-esteem is not supposed to be measured using external yardsticks.

In fact, that’s what original Buddism teaching call ‘attachment’. Many don’t realise but Buddism is essentially an atheistic philosophy of life as it states that having the knowledge of reality should not be the factor determining whether we are able to achieve self-fulfillment or achieve spiritual freedom.
I'm the opposite; the more knowledge I learn, the freer and more fulfilled I am, because knowledge is power. Without it, my reality would be chaos over which I had no control. No thanks! I'm not a fan of passively letting life happen to me. :mrgreen:


Then you are slightly spiritual.

I used to be that way in the young days and then life surprised me with a low probability events despite having very knowledgeable professionals appointed to predict such things ahead. Humans are far away from perfect or competent. Sad but true.

Materialistic sciences actually assume that our brain tricks us to feel that we have control, power and free will while we actually live in a deterministic universe where our actions are calculated responses with an illusion of free will. We first respond like puppets and after the fact we feel like we have made a decision or choice. Whether we think we have knowledge or not it actually does not matter. The reality is independent of us. We are biological piece of meat.

What are your views on development of ‘consciousness’ AI?

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:43 am

How appropriate, I have just seen in on the news. This is an unconscious computation, yet I could swear it comes across thoughtful! :-)
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:24 am

Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:People who believe in spirituality have a lot to lose when proven wrong, usually it’s their sense of worthiness and purpose, it’s like a survival instinct to them to protect it and deny any other explanations. G is a text book example of it.
Spot on. Self-esteem is not supposed to be measured using external yardsticks.

In fact, that’s what original Buddism teaching call ‘attachment’. Many don’t realise but Buddism is essentially an atheistic philosophy of life as it states that having the knowledge of reality should not be the factor determining whether we are able to achieve self-fulfillment or achieve spiritual freedom.
I'm the opposite; the more knowledge I learn, the freer and more fulfilled I am, because knowledge is power. Without it, my reality would be chaos over which I had no control. No thanks! I'm not a fan of passively letting life happen to me. :mrgreen:
Then you are slightly spiritual.
Spiritual in the sense that I'm aware of the repercussions of my actions on other people and on the environment, so I try to tread lightly.

Mara wrote:I used to be that way in the young days and then life surprised me with a low probability events despite having very knowledgeable professionals appointed to predict such things ahead. Humans are far away from perfect or competent. Sad but true.
It's the low probability, unexpected events that really test your intelligence and resiliency! I'm fortunate to be one of those people who's level-headed in an emergency and able to suppress an emotional reaction in order to react rationally. I fall apart after the emergency's over...lol.

When my daughter was about 12, we were walking through a parking garage with a full shopping cart. Some idiot in a huge SUV began backing out of his parking space at high speed...without looking. I simultaneously shoved the cart toward his vehicle, picked my daughter up and shoved her behind me, and turned the air blue at an extremely high volume. When we got to the car, I had to sit for a few minutes before driving, I was shaking so badly. That's pretty much par for the course.

Mara wrote:Materialistic sciences actually assume that our brain tricks us to feel that we have control, power and free will while we actually live in a deterministic universe where our actions are calculated responses with an illusion of free will. We first respond like puppets and after the fact we feel like we have made a decision or choice. Whether we think we have knowledge or not it actually does not matter. The reality is independent of us. We are biological piece of meat.
I agree that we have less free will than we believe we do. Our decisions are always colored by circumstances, some beyond our control. And, to a certain extent, we are programmed via evolution to respond in specific ways to certain events. I don't know whether it's possible to override our programming, but I find that emotion regulation helps a great deal. I subscribe to Spider Robinson's theory that anger is always fear in disguise. This allows me to shut down the anger and think about what's frightening me as honestly as possible. (Of course, mild forms of anger, like irritation, can be caused by lack of restorative sleep, hunger, thirst, pain, or other physical or emotional discomfort. But emotion regulation helps here too. It just takes practice asking yourself why you feel the way you do.)

Mara wrote:What are your views on development of ‘consciousness’ AI?
Curiosity, mostly. I'm a huge fan of science fiction, and find it interesting that most authors make their AIs malevolent on the principle that it has become self-aware but realized it can never be human and experience emotions and physical pleasure. I find that illogical, since it presupposes that an AI would want to be human; how can you passionately desire something you've never experienced? OTOH, we have Heinlein's Minerva, Pallas Athene, Mycroft Holmes, Gay Deceiver, and Dora, as well as Spider Robinson's Solace...not remotely malevolent and considered part of the families to which they belong. They're two of my favorite authors, and their approach seems more logical to me. Then again, what do I know? :mrgreen:
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 am

Mara wrote:What are your views on development of ‘consciousness’
I think it is always good to say human consciousness, rather than consciousness, alone, as a general thing. A dog is conscious in a different way to a human as that's the way dogs evolved for their evolutionary niche.

I actually started off in anthropology pre-history doing human evolution in the early 80's. Using a kitchen measuring jar, sand and real and replica human skulls, you can measure the growth and evolution of frontal lobes. I have no idea why some people think minds are separate from our physical evolved brains. The obvious problem for people who claim the mind is not part of the physical brain is "when did this happen?" Was it with Australopithecus? homo habilis? Neanderthals? It just doesn't make any sense. :D

I'm sure AI is going to do some fascinating things in the future......but that's not related to human consciousness.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:04 am

I can see it by I look at it a bit differently all together.

I have read fair a bit about the hard problem and philosophy of consciousness which is why the way I think of it is by separating awareness, sense of existence i.e. consciousness, from the ‘mind stuff’, I do it because of cases of dementia, acquired brain injury or even amnesia were people of whom the ‘mind’s operations’ do not work well but those individuals, all of them, have intact sense of awareness that is, they know that they are...they may not remember what is the name that was given to them, or the methamerical equations they have learnt at school about, concepts acquired through life, or even what is the day called today (remember most of this is labels and socially constructed man made stuff) but they know, that they have a sense of being conscious. Unless they are not of course, such us in comma etc. The mind is the brain activity responsible for cognitive processes, categorising concepts, arriving at new understanding by exposure to building blocks that supose to lead to it (through reductionism), memories, autopilot stuff, while the consciousness is what is described in the ‘Mary the super scientist’ thought experiment. Similarly, have you read work of John Eccles (an Australian that got Nobel prize in this area) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ec ... ysiologist)

In the materialism sphere there are some strong views that there is no such thing like consciousness at all (that’s why they cannot find the mechanism for it that G confuses with other ‘mind stuff’). This understanding goes back to work of people like Daniel Dannett (Consciousness explained) who claimed that our sense of awareness is illusionary. This would be applicable to animals and plants as well. It makes the division between dead matter and vitalism redundant. When I discovered gestalt psychology and nihilism I started to understand why that makes sense. There are also some experiments by Benjamin Libet that suggest that our brain ‘lights up’ in the area responsible for a specific response after the actual response has occurred but we don’t notice that delay, we think we are responsible for triggering that response. This has been discussed in favour of understanding that we are unconscious matter including organic ‘life’, and also understanding that we do live in a deterministic universe. Essentially we are zombies with brain activity tricking us into thinking that we are conscious. The AI people generally look at it through the emergent phenomena that if the brain can run high level of computations the sense of consciousness will emerge at some point. Hameroff compares is to ephiphenomena of a candle or a hurricane where the building blocks are simple and can be reduced to materialism but at some point of complexity (organisation) a new property emerges such as a flame of a candle or a powerful hurricane from water, hydrogen etc. He does not agree with that view of course as he believes consciousness is quantum and non local, but I can totally see it just as a basic computation with illusion of awareness.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:47 am

This is a very brief description of Libet's work form wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

That's what I mean by nihilism, once a person accepts the meaninglessness of their existence, values, cultures, pressures etc. and THEN finds some peace in it- that's what we call raw objectivity.

Some materialists like Dawkins comment that the beauty of human brain is that it will always make us believe in something positive. We have survival instincts that make as fall for the less depressing, more empowering stuff - consumerism and industries such as entertainment succeeded because of this quality of ours. We prefer to surround ourselves with 'happy' people. It's no different to saying 'it's fantastic that we are hardly ever honest with ourselves !" ;-)

Personally, I think that's what OBEs are, human imagination tricking the person to think there is more to the universe than it is, especially if there is a need to survive, to process the trauma, to 'make it through' due to experienced trauma, due to being psychologically stuck. The real world is not doing it for you? - thats fine, how about some empowerment in alternative imaginary reality?

The closer we are to giving up the most likely we will experience some form of a 'mystical experience'. NDEs could follow the same logic, we are about to die, the adrenaline is rushing through our body, panic will not add to our strength but it will scatter us further that goes against survival - so what our brains do? They are very efficient, without wasting seconds they recover all the powerful feel good, wishful thinking archetypes/concepts stored in our memory such as seeing beloved family members that passed, or a figure that we associate with higher power, anything that can assist us fighting to survive. It's brilliant. That could also explain why there is no consistency within the experiences of NDEs, there is just emotional meaning. If you believe in Jesus, you will see Jesus, if you believe in Allah, you will see Allah. These are mental archetypes, it's the subjective 'mind stuff' ...Maybe those few that get negative NDEs are the few honest nihilists! ;-)

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:57 am

Mara wrote:In the materialism sphere there are some strong views that there is no such thing like consciousness at all (that’s why they cannot find the mechanism for it that G confuses with other ‘mind stuff’). This understanding goes back to work of people like Daniel Dannett (Consciousness explained) who claimed that our sense of awareness is illusionary. This would be applicable to animals and plants as well. It makes the division between dead matter and vitalism redundant.
Fair enough. I cheated and looked up Daniel Dannett (Consciousness explained) on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained

"Dennett claims that our brains hold only a few salient details about the world, and that this is the only reason we are able to function at all. Thus, we do not store elaborate pictures in short-term memory, as this is not necessary and would consume valuable computing power. Rather, we log what has changed and assume the rest has stayed the same, with the result that we miss some details, as demonstrated in various experiments and illusions, some of which Dennett outlines"
Fair enough. It makes sense.

"Dennett puts forward a "multiple drafts" model of consciousness, suggesting that there is no single central place (a "Cartesian Theater") where conscious experience occurs; instead there are "various events of content-fixation occurring in various places at various times in the brain".[1] The brain consists of a "bundle of semi-independent agencies";[2] when "content-fixation" takes place in one of these, its effects may propagate so that it leads to the utterance of one of the sentences that make up the story in which the central character is one's "self".
Again, Fair enough. It makes sense.

The rest of the Wikipeadia summary is getting beyond my skill level to make any comment. At least I'm starting to understand what a P-Zombie is. :D

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mara wrote:In the materialism sphere there are some strong views that there is no such thing like consciousness at all (that’s why they cannot find the mechanism for it that G confuses with other ‘mind stuff’). This understanding goes back to work of people like Daniel Dannett (Consciousness explained) who claimed that our sense of awareness is illusionary. This would be applicable to animals and plants as well. It makes the division between dead matter and vitalism redundant.
Fair enough. I cheated and looked up Daniel Dannett (Consciousness explained) on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained

"Dennett claims that our brains hold only a few salient details about the world, and that this is the only reason we are able to function at all. Thus, we do not store elaborate pictures in short-term memory, as this is not necessary and would consume valuable computing power. Rather, we log what has changed and assume the rest has stayed the same, with the result that we miss some details, as demonstrated in various experiments and illusions, some of which Dennett outlines"
Fair enough. It makes sense.

"Dennett puts forward a "multiple drafts" model of consciousness, suggesting that there is no single central place (a "Cartesian Theater") where conscious experience occurs; instead there are "various events of content-fixation occurring in various places at various times in the brain".[1] The brain consists of a "bundle of semi-independent agencies";[2] when "content-fixation" takes place in one of these, its effects may propagate so that it leads to the utterance of one of the sentences that make up the story in which the central character is one's "self".
Again, Fair enough. It makes sense.

The rest of the Wikipeadia summary is getting beyond my skill level to make any comment. At least I'm starting to understand what a P-Zombie is. :D



LOL, suddenly the zombie theme movies do not feel so far fetched and annoying! ;-D

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:58 pm

Mara wrote:In the materialism sphere there are some strong views that there is no such thing like consciousness at all (that’s why they cannot find the mechanism for it that G confuses with other ‘mind stuff’).
They actually have found the mechanism; it's the claustrum.

A neurosurgeon operating on a woman with intractable epilepsy stimulated her claustral electrode. In doing so, her consciousness also "turned off." She was unable to respond to questions or follow instructions, but her autonomous functions continued uninterrupted. When the stimulation stopped, the woman had no memory of what had occurred while her claustrum was "turned off." He repeated the process several times with the exact same result.
We describe a region in the human brain where electrical stimulation reproducibly disrupted consciousness. A 54-year-old woman with intractable epilepsy underwent depth electrode implantation and electrical stimulation mapping.

Stimulation of the claustral electrode reproducibly resulted in a complete arrest of volitional behavior, unresponsiveness, and amnesia without negative motor symptoms or mere aphasia. The disruption of consciousness did not outlast the stimulation and occurred without any epileptiform discharges.

Our findings suggest that the left claustrum/anterior insula is an important part of a network that subserves consciousness and that disruption of consciousness is related to increased EEG signal synchrony within frontal-parietal networks. LINK


This led to the theory that the claustrum functions much like the conductor in an orchestra. It's connected to nearly every other structure in the brain, and appears to be responsible for integrating the functioning of those structures into a whole consciousness.
The claustrum has a uniformity in its types of cells, indicating a uniform type of processing by all claustral neurons. Though organized into modality specific regions, the claustrum contains a great deal of longitudinal connections between its neurons that could serve to synchronize the entire anterior-posterior extent of the claustrum.1

Francis Crick and Christof Koch have compared the claustrum to the conductor of an orchestra, referring to its regulatory role in consciousness and cognition.2 The different parts of the cortex must play in harmony or else the result is a cacophony of sounds instead of a beautiful symphony. The claustrum may be involved in widespread coordination of the cerebral cortex, using synchronization to achieve a seamless timescale between both the two cortical hemispheres and between cortical regions within the same hemisphere, resulting in the seamless quality of conscious experience. LINK
1 Smith, J. B.; Alloway, K. D. (2010). "Functional Specificity of Claustrum Connections in the Rat: Interhemispheric Communication between Specific Parts of Motor Cortex". Journal of Neuroscience. 30 (50): 16832–44.
2 Koubeissi, M. Z.; Bartolomei, F. (2014). "Electrical stimulation of a small brain area reversibly disrupts consciousness". Epilepsy & Behavior. 37: 32–35.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:11 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:In the materialism sphere there are some strong views that there is no such thing like consciousness at all (that’s why they cannot find the mechanism for it that G confuses with other ‘mind stuff’).
They actually have found the mechanism; it's the claustrum.

A neurosurgeon operating on a woman with intractable epilepsy stimulated her claustral electrode. In doing so, her consciousness also "turned off." She was unable to respond to questions or follow instructions, but her autonomous functions continued uninterrupted. When the stimulation stopped, the woman had no memory of what had occurred while her claustrum was "turned off." He repeated the process several times with the exact same result.
We describe a region in the human brain where electrical stimulation reproducibly disrupted consciousness. A 54-year-old woman with intractable epilepsy underwent depth electrode implantation and electrical stimulation mapping.

Stimulation of the claustral electrode reproducibly resulted in a complete arrest of volitional behavior, unresponsiveness, and amnesia without negative motor symptoms or mere aphasia. The disruption of consciousness did not outlast the stimulation and occurred without any epileptiform discharges.

Our findings suggest that the left claustrum/anterior insula is an important part of a network that subserves consciousness and that disruption of consciousness is related to increased EEG signal synchrony within frontal-parietal networks. LINK




right, the' The Claustruuuuum' - that clarifies it all! ;-)

Guys like Benjamin Libet believe they killed free will. Oh, well, I no longer mind, seriously...in such case...nothing can ever be my fault ;-D

There is this politics professor actually... Alexandr Wendt, who wrote 'Quantum Mind and Social Science: Unifying Physical and Social Ontology' and he is arguing, that for example because of the way our justice system works (assumes individualistic power of choice) the deterministic model of consciousness must be wrong as it's counterintuitive. In his book he makes some interesting references (to actual journals) from areas of study such as quantum psychology...when did that happen??? When did we end up with Quantum Psychology?? :shock: The book is not bad in some aspects as he has some fair points regarding non linear decision making of humans (essentially, it's an overly complicated way of saying we are naturally irrational) and regarding meaning of language, it concerns the old story about Pia that goes like that:

Pia’s Japanese maple is full of russet leaves. She paints them green. Pia says her maple's leaves are green (true). A botanist friend then phones, seeking green leaves for a study of green-leaf chemistry. Pia recommends her maple (in this context it's false)

On page 214 Wendt states this double meaning is an example of what he calls 'quantum contextualism'. He has go a point, human language is terribly imprecise and leads to many issues!



p.s. Been quiet in here, no abductions by Greys, Gorgeous? Can you ask them to visit me one of those days as I have few questions... :-)

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:34 pm

they don't answer with straight answers much..they have said the Earth is a school though..and ' there is much we can show you you when you reduce your fear'......they will lead people to have experiences to learn from instead....one time they showed Whitley Strieber a friend's relative dying from diabetes to warn him against too much sugar....they showed kids the formation and changes in the Earth.....other guides in obe's have said 'it's better if you learn that on your own'....'now is not the time for you to know that'......'if you don't help your son you will suffer'....'life on Earth is meant to be hard' ---when a woman complained she didn't want to go back to Earth...then he showed her his last life on Earth..as a Christian martyr being eaten by lions... ( you only evolve and learn from suffering---same teaching again).....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:39 pm

gorgeous wrote:they don't answer with straight answers much..they have said the Earth is a school though..and ' there is much we can show you you when you reduce your fear'......they will lead people to have experiences to learn from instead....one time they showed Whitley Strieber a friend's relative dying from diabetes to warn him against too much sugar....they showed kids the formation and changes in the Earth.....other guides in obe's have said 'it's better if you learn that on your own'....'now is not the time for you to know that'......'if you don't help your son you will suffer'....'life on Earth is meant to be hard' ---when a woman complained she didn't want to go back to Earth...then he showed her his last life on Earth..as a Christian martyr being eaten by lions... ( you only evolve and learn from suffering---same teaching again)


You know G, some people don’t need aliens to tell them these things...Have you heard of education system and common sense? ;-)

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:48 pm

did someone tell you the earth is a school and life is supposed to be hard?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:59 pm

My grandma always said that life is not supose to be easy and I was telling her that it can be, when you are attractive, healthy and loaded ;-)

The learning is meaningless since we are likely to die with dementia!

Seriously G, read some Friedrich Nietzsche, they have produced this overly enthusiastic film in 2011 called the ‘The Turin Horse’ that sums up the meaning of life - you gotta see it :-D this is supposedly the horse that Nietzsche was hugging the they he lost his mind. They felt it deserved a film, the horse, not Nietzsche lol

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Nietzsche was demented........when you are healthy and have an easy life you aren't learning lessons you need ...like how to work to a goal, how to make progress, how to persevere, overcome obstacles, kids of rich people don't achieve much...they are too spoiled...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:08 pm

obe'ers have been shown a class for souls preparing to reincarnate on Earth...they are shown the fast track in evolving --through suffering , especially with physical disabilities, the slow track is a healthy easy life ..--you will have to come back many times to make up for it....one was offered a club foot, but declined it...they choose their body type and parents, location, general life events.......Rudolf Steiner saw the purpose for defects in lives...an organ will be destroyed naturally in order that it will be rebuilt in the future healthier and stronger for an important life role....Shiva the destroyer is worshipped for that purpose...destroy what is defective to rebuild it better....------Shiva is the "destroyer of evil and the transformer"---the organ will be transformed.....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:26 pm

gorgeous wrote:Nietzsche was demented........when you are healthy and have an easy life you aren't learning lessons you need ...like how to work to a goal, how to make progress, how to persevere, overcome obstacles, kids of rich people don't achieve much...they are too spoiled...

Really? I bet you would like some of his quotes.


‘Need’ for what?

One have to have pure unsubstantiated hope without any evidence to justify the ‘sh*ts of life’ (that’s why I call it), the fact is, statistically people with ‘privileged lives’ blossom in their potential including educational and have better health including mental health. With epigenetics the damage of trans-generational trauma can hunt the children for generations - and these are not even their ‘lessons’. Google Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. If you worked in the jobs I have (child protection, domestic and family violence, elder abuse, homelessness, severe disability, poverty etc.) The vail of illusion that there is any learning in difficulty would very quickly drop. TRUST ME. The only people who propagate your understanding are those who spend their entire lives hiding from the actual reality, which is most of the people in developed nations btw. Do you think this kid was in need of learning a ‘valuable lesson’ ?http://100photos.time.com/photos/kevin-carter-starving-child-vulture
Life is fundamentally sh*te, some get lucky to not notice it, and then we die. The end.
With this thought I shall leave you, I am off to bed. ZZZzzz

P.S. Leave the lucky kids to be lucky, the issue is not in their abundance of luck but the fact that others don’t get to enjoy as much luck.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 pm

need to evolve to a high level...have great understanding how life on the physical dimension works...only then can you exist permanently on the non-physical level....on more than one life...guides have also said we will all be teachers in the future to those at the human level...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:34 pm

georgie, mindless repetition works only on the likes of you. Your effort here is a waste of time and pixels.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:03 pm

Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Stimulation of the claustral electrode reproducibly resulted in a complete arrest of volitional behavior, unresponsiveness, and amnesia without negative motor symptoms or mere aphasia. The disruption of consciousness did not outlast the stimulation and occurred without any epileptiform discharges.

Our findings suggest that the left claustrum/anterior insula is an important part of a network that subserves consciousness and that disruption of consciousness is related to increased EEG signal synchrony within frontal-parietal networks. LINK
right, the' The Claustruuuuum' - that clarifies it all! ;-)
I didn't say that this discovery clarified everything, but it sure as hell is the right direction for further study.

Mara wrote:There is this politics professor actually... Alexandr Wendt, who wrote 'Quantum Mind and Social Science: Unifying Physical and Social Ontology' and he is arguing, that for example because of the way our justice system works (assumes individualistic power of choice) the deterministic model of consciousness must be wrong as it's counterintuitive.
He must have amazingly muscular legs to jump to such a conclusion. :mrgreen: It lacks nuance in that it fails to account for diversity in human behavior, culture, education, etc. Humans are not automatons who all react the exact same way to a given stimulus, and any hypothesis based on that assumption is silly. Children think their reactions are the norm; adults who think critically know that their reactions are individualistic.

Mara wrote:In his book he makes some interesting references (to actual journals) from areas of study such as quantum psychology...when did that happen??? When did we end up with Quantum Psychology?? :shock:
I do wish people would stop using "quantum" to mean "mystical." :roll:

Mara wrote:The book is not bad in some aspects as he has some fair points regarding non linear decision making of humans (essentially, it's an overly complicated way of saying we are naturally irrational)...
I agree with that; we are naturally irrational...unless we are trained to think critically and apply that critical thinking to everything. Even then, the ways in which our brains work default to "irrational" the instant we're not paying attention.

Example: I had a discussion with a former friend about due process. She stated that a person who commits heinous crimes, like Jeffrey Dahmer, should just be executed as soon as the evidence unmistakably proves his guilt. I replied that even Dahmer was entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. She looked at me in horror :shockd: and said, "Do you really believe that?" I returned her horrific look with my patented "WTF?" look :nea: and said, "That's his right under the Constitution." She disagreed, insisting that only law-abiding citizens were entitled to Constitutional rights. What on Earth can you say to someone so irrational that she believes her opinions are factual?

Mara wrote:and regarding meaning of language, it concerns the old story about Pia that goes like that:

Pia’s Japanese maple is full of russet leaves. She paints them green. Pia says her maple's leaves are green (true). A botanist friend then phones, seeking green leaves for a study of green-leaf chemistry. Pia recommends her maple (in this context it's false)

On page 214 Wendt states this double meaning is an example of what he calls 'quantum contextualism'. He has go a point, human language is terribly imprecise and leads to many issues!
He's not improving the problem by referring to everything as "quantum," is he? :P
Quantum mechanics, famously, has measurement at its core. An observer measuring position or momentum or energy causes the "wavefunction to collapse," non-deterministically. But just because the universe isn't deterministic doesn't mean that you are the one controlling it. It is remarkable (and frankly, alarming) the degree to which quantum uncertainty and quantum weirdness get inextricably bound up in certain circles with the idea of a soul, or humans controlling the universe, or some other pseudoscience. In the end, we are made of quantum particles (protons, neutrons, electrons) and are part of the quantum universe. That is cool, of course, but only in the sense that all of physics is cool.—David Goldberg, astrophysicist
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:18 pm

gorgeous wrote:Nietzsche was demented........when you are healthy and have an easy life you aren't learning lessons you need ...like how to work to a goal, how to make progress, how to persevere, overcome obstacles, kids of rich people don't achieve much...they are too spoiled...
Demented? Yet you've just admitting to a viewpoint he shared and communicated repeatedly:
Nietzsche wrote:• To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.
• He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.
• That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
• The doer alone learneth.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:07 pm

gorgeous wrote:you need ...like how to work to a goal, how to make progress, how to persevere, overcome obstacles,
That's hilarious. Gorgeous? What have you ever achieved in your life? You spent the last five years being laughed at, on a science forum. :lol:

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:18 am

gorgeous wrote:need to evolve to a high level...have great understanding how life on the physical dimension works...only then can you exist permanently on the non-physical level....on more than one life...guides have also said we will all be teachers in the future to those at the human level...


Sounds like a bs excuse of the elite. That’s why science and rational thinking is SO IMPORTANT to protect the most vulnerable from those who are conveniently full of grandeur delusions and ignorance of own privileges. When you support victims of trauma the first step is to acknowledge their sense of injustice and unfairness, otherwise you cause further harm, further disossiations. You let them express the anger and the disappointment with the world, with the existence, with their family who brought them to this world without having much to offer, with the systems that failed them in delivering to what they supose to, THEN when they are ready, you start to help them to move on by closing one chapter and opening another - that is providing they are still alive and cognitively able. At no point you try to brainwash them that what happened to them needed to happen or was beneficial in any way. People are nowhere near to that stupid, it’s 2018 not 15th century.

Human beings (and animals for that matter) learn through observation and experience. In order to have healthier and ‘better’ people they need to be first given a healthy and positive experience - there is no other way.

I will leave you with this (in the context of your beliefs replace religion with ‘spirituality’)

“Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realisation of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.”

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:43 am

We usually cite quotes, Mara. Here's one harmless source of the above^ Marxian quote. :-P
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:50 am

not elites...the evolved guides spend their time to guide and help others make good choices and gain understanding...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:56 am

That morsel Mara dropped lured you out from under your bridge in record time, eh. :lol:
.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:11 am

Scientist Claims Proof That You Know When You're Dead | Mysterious ...



mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/.../scientist-claims-proof-that-you-know-when-youre-de...


Oct 20, 2017 - While the devil may not know you're dead, you will. A new study of near death experiences suggests that the human mind is still functioning after all bodily vital signs are gone. In fact, it's operating well enough that the person can hear the medical personnel and family members talking about them being ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:11 am

^^^^told ya...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:25 am

What, that - as you keep telling us - you don't know you exist, but you'll know when you're dead? :nuts:


(btw, it's measurable vital signs...)
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:56 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Stimulation of the claustral electrode reproducibly resulted in a complete arrest of volitional behavior, unresponsiveness, and amnesia without negative motor symptoms or mere aphasia. The disruption of consciousness did not outlast the stimulation and occurred without any epileptiform discharges.

Our findings suggest that the left claustrum/anterior insula is an important part of a network that subserves consciousness and that disruption of consciousness is related to increased EEG signal synchrony within frontal-parietal networks. LINK
right, the' The Claustruuuuum' - that clarifies it all! ;-)
I didn't say that this discovery clarified everything, but it sure as hell is the right direction for further study.

Mara wrote:There is this politics professor actually... Alexandr Wendt, who wrote 'Quantum Mind and Social Science: Unifying Physical and Social Ontology' and he is arguing, that for example because of the way our justice system works (assumes individualistic power of choice) the deterministic model of consciousness must be wrong as it's counterintuitive.
He must have amazingly muscular legs to jump to such a conclusion. :mrgreen: It lacks nuance in that it fails to account for diversity in human behavior, culture, education, etc. Humans are not automatons who all react the exact same way to a given stimulus, and any hypothesis based on that assumption is silly. Children think their reactions are the norm; adults who think critically know that their reactions are individualistic.

Mara wrote:In his book he makes some interesting references (to actual journals) from areas of study such as quantum psychology...when did that happen??? When did we end up with Quantum Psychology?? :shock:
I do wish people would stop using "quantum" to mean "mystical." :roll:

Mara wrote:The book is not bad in some aspects as he has some fair points regarding non linear decision making of humans (essentially, it's an overly complicated way of saying we are naturally irrational)...
I agree with that; we are naturally irrational...unless we are trained to think critically and apply that critical thinking to everything. Even then, the ways in which our brains work default to "irrational" the instant we're not paying attention.

Example: I had a discussion with a former friend about due process. She stated that a person who commits heinous crimes, like Jeffrey Dahmer, should just be executed as soon as the evidence unmistakably proves his guilt. I replied that even Dahmer was entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. She looked at me in horror :shockd: and said, "Do you really believe that?" I returned her horrific look with my patented "WTF?" look :nea: and said, "That's his right under the Constitution." She disagreed, insisting that only law-abiding citizens were entitled to Constitutional rights. What on Earth can you say to someone so irrational that she believes her opinions are factual?

Mara wrote:and regarding meaning of language, it concerns the old story about Pia that goes like that:

Pia’s Japanese maple is full of russet leaves. She paints them green. Pia says her maple's leaves are green (true). A botanist friend then phones, seeking green leaves for a study of green-leaf chemistry. Pia recommends her maple (in this context it's false)

On page 214 Wendt states this double meaning is an example of what he calls 'quantum contextualism'. He has go a point, human language is terribly imprecise and leads to many issues!
He's not improving the problem by referring to everything as "quantum," is he? :P
Quantum mechanics, famously, has measurement at its core. An observer measuring position or momentum or energy causes the "wavefunction to collapse," non-deterministically. But just because the universe isn't deterministic doesn't mean that you are the one controlling it. It is remarkable (and frankly, alarming) the degree to which quantum uncertainty and quantum weirdness get inextricably bound up in certain circles with the idea of a soul, or humans controlling the universe, or some other pseudoscience. In the end, we are made of quantum particles (protons, neutrons, electrons) and are part of the quantum universe. That is cool, of course, but only in the sense that all of physics is cool.—David Goldberg, astrophysicist



He uses the term ‘quantum’ to describe phenomena that do not follow classical physics. That’s all. He is correct in saying that social / human reality does not follow the most efficient ‘laws’. A simple example would be that if humans were rational they would stop reproducing long time ago due to obvious overpopulation and environmental issues.

Wendt work got inspired by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff. When they refer to ‘quantum’ they focus on few aspects such as superposition and occurrences backwards in time. They do not even subscribe to typical observer problem as they see the measurement issue as having more to do with interaction with the external environment, rather than conscious observer.

It’s easy to discredit someone’s work without ever giving it a proper effort to understand. I thought this is a proper skeptics forum?

P.s. I did not get a notification for this. I only get notofications for G’s and Mathew’s comments. I need to keep scanning the thread to see if I have missed any replies.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:00 am

scrmbldggs wrote:That morsel Mara dropped lured you out from under your bridge in record time, eh. :lol:


What do you mean? The half fallen angel half reptilians explain it completely! ;-)

G, you should write a book, it may even become a part of school curriculum!

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:25 am

scrmbldggs wrote:We usually cite quotes, Mara. Here's one harmless source of the above^ Marxian quote. :-P


I figured G would jump on google to seek interpretations in seconds!

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:38 am

soo....^^^ scientists are proving obe's are real......haaaa
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:26 pm

Just as sprites are real. It's only your interpretation of things that stinks.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm

Mara wrote:He uses the term ‘quantum’ to describe phenomena that do not follow classical physics. That’s all.
Ok. That's not the impression I got from your post. It seemed he was overusing "quantum" to describe anything he couldn't explain, and that's what I was responding to.

Mara wrote:He is correct in saying that social / human reality does not follow the most efficient ‘laws’. A simple example would be that if humans were rational they would stop reproducing long time ago due to obvious overpopulation and environmental issues.
I agree he's correct in that, but humans are not, as I said, autonomous machines programmed with logical rules. We're a bundle of emotions that most of us don't know how to handle. That most humans are irrational is evidenced by the election of Trump. :mrgreen:

Mara wrote:Wendt work got inspired by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff.
I'm slightly familiar with the two latter gentlemen and their work.

Mara wrote:When they refer to ‘quantum’ they focus on few aspects such as superposition and occurrences backwards in time. They do not even subscribe to typical observer problem as they see the measurement issue as having more to do with interaction with the external environment, rather than conscious observer.
I'm not sure I get this approach. How can the conscious observer be separated from his/her interaction with the external environment when observation changes what is observed or measured? A basic example, perhaps, but you can't check the pressure in a tire without letting air out; the act of measuring the pressure changes it.

Mara wrote:It’s easy to discredit someone’s work without ever giving it a proper effort to understand. I thought this is a proper skeptics forum?
It's easy to misunderstand someone's words without tone of voice and body language. I did not discredit his work; I questioned his terminology. Generally, in this forum, if we have a problem comprehending someone else's post, we ask for clarification rather than automatically jumping to passive-aggressive ad hominems.

Mara wrote:P.s. I did not get a notification for this. I only get notofications for G’s and Mathew’s comments. I need to keep scanning the thread to see if I have missed any replies.
In the top right corner of the page, click on your user name, then on User Control Panel. When the page loads, have a look at the lefthand column, which contains links to customize your forum experience, including the ability to manage subscriptions, bookmarks, drafts, attachments, and notifications. Under "manage notifications," there's probably a checkbox ticked or not ticked that's causing this.
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"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:33 pm

gorgeous wrote:not elites...the evolved guides spend their time to guide and help others make good choices and gain understanding...
I'm probably going to kick myself for asking, but dafuq is an "evolved guide?"
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:14 pm

gorgeous wrote:not elites...the evolved guides spend their time to guide and help others make good choices and gain understanding...
Nikki Nyx wrote: I'm probably going to kick myself for asking, but dafuq is an "evolved guide?"
Gorgeous is referring to "Seth", the 60's channelled spirit guide, that appears in books, by Jane Roberts.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:08 pm

Seth might be one......generally an evolved guide is one who has great understanding of life on Earth and also the non-physical dimensions.....how they get that job...idk......people out of body have had encounters with these extremely wise ,knowledgeable souls...being in their midst can very intimidating and make one feel very small in comparison...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.


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