the bible and archeology

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the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:07 pm

so just how reliable is the bible for archeology anyways the fundies are always toting about all the supposed they make :?: oh and here a really weird one.... so apprerently giants do exist! :D http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=bones+of+ ... ,s:0,i:115

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:54 pm

You'll do better working backwards, look at the archeological record and see if it's mentioned in the Bible. Then see if the mention makes any sense.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Poodle » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:20 am

Not reliable at all (but then, why should it be?).

To make biblical events fit (apparently) the archaeological record demands a complete overhaul of Egyptian chronology. David Rohl has already tried that with interesting (but debunked) results.

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:26 am

Poodle wrote:Not reliable at all (but then, why should it be?).

To make biblical events fit (apparently) the archaeological record demands a complete overhaul of Egyptian chronology. David Rohl has already tried that with interesting (but debunked) results.

The bible requires that ~100 years after the Flood world population be high enough that people who do not identify at Hebrews have enough population to build the Great Pyramid among other things. All non-Hebrew civilizations that existed shortly after the Flood is supposed to have happened would have the same issues. So the Bible is BS.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Poodle » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:43 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: So the Bible is BS.


Well, yes - certainly as an accurate record of events, and definitely as a religious document. But there are events described in the OT which have a basis in real history, although they're heavily disguised by fantasy and dogma. Even so, it's useless as an archaeological resource.

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:57 am

Poodle wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote: So the Bible is BS.


Well, yes - certainly as an accurate record of events, and definitely as a religious document. But there are events described in the OT which have a basis in real history, although they're heavily disguised by fantasy and dogma. Even so, it's useless as an archaeological resource.

Unreliable sources are poison to the serious historian. I have a Masters in History from Purdue and the profs were murder on dodgy references.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Bunyip » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:12 am

Even so, it's useless as an archaeological resource.



Indeed,and often misleading.The Torah needs to be read as the mythology of an illiterate tribe of bronze age goat herders. The New Testament as the mythology of a derivative religion largely cobbled togther by writer(s) called Saul/Paul of Tarsus who may or may not have existed as an individual.


There are quaint ideas like a talking serpent,the flood and the tower of babel taken seriously only by young earth creationist loons. There are also an increasing number of things scholars are agreeing are also almost certainly myth. EG:

The figure of the Patriarch Abraham.

The entire book of Exodus,beginning with the figure of Moses.

The existence of an extensive Davidic kingdom,and temple of Solomon.


There is also evidence that the people who became the Jews were still largely polytheist until (at least) the 7th century BCE,when the Torah was actually first written down..


000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


References

The Wiki articles are worth reading, bu the books are better)

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts[1] is a 2001 book about the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins of the Hebrew Bible. The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed


Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel, (Eerdmans, ISBN 0-8028-2852-3, 2005),[1] is a book by Syro-Palestinian archaeologist William G. Dever, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Archeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona. “Did God Have a Wife?” was intended as a popular work making available to the general public the evidence long known to archaeologists regarding ancient Israelite religion: namely that the Israelite god of antiquity (before 600 BC), Yahweh, had a consort, that her name was Asherah, and that she was part of the Canaanite pantheon.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_God_Have_a_Wife%3F


A N Wilson's "Paul; The Mind Of An Apostle" is also worth a read. A lot Christians got their panties in bunch about it when fisrt published in 2001..
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:49 pm

I find these kinds of books fascinating but I often wonder if I would even care if I didn't live in a culture where some people take these claims seriously.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gord » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:05 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I find these kinds of books fascinating but I often wonder if I would even care if I didn't live in a culture where some people take these claims seriously.

I care because I like mythology. I used to avoid books about the Bible because I couldn't find any that treated it like mythology, but these days there's finally something worth reading in my local libraries.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Bunyip » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:56 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I find these kinds of books fascinating but I often wonder if I would even care if I didn't live in a culture where some people take these claims seriously.


Most people in Australia are largely indifferent to all religions except sport. Here it is considered crass to wear your beliefs on your sleeve,as it is to have flag in your front yard. (love of country is simply assumed),.

My interest is academic,coming from my university studies in social Anrthropology. My approach includes cultural relativism and structural functionalism,with elements of Marxism..
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:53 am

Bunyip wrote: (Australia) Here it is considered crass to wear your beliefs on your sleeve,as it is to have flag in your front yard. (love of country is simply assumed).
Absolutely True.

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bunyip wrote: (Australia) Here it is considered crass to wear your beliefs on your sleeve,as it is to have flag in your front yard. (love of country is simply assumed).
Absolutely True.

Fulla {!#%@}.

If you don't wear an Australian flag, you're UN-Australian.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by bigtim » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:22 am

Bible is not archeology... in fact many of it's comments/claims have been disproven....

The problem you have are "Biblical Archeologists" that go looking to prove the Bible right... and WOW! what do you know! they do!
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:35 am

I read The Odyssey, and Troy was a city. So Zeus.
I saw Sex in the City, and New York is a city. So Mr Big.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by bigtim » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:45 am

Major Malfunction wrote:I read The Odyssey, and Troy was a city. So Zeus.
I saw Sex in the City, and New York is a city. So Mr Big.


I was watching Spongebob and Bikini Bottom so goddamn {!#%@} pineapple under the {!#%@} sea
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:20 am

bigtim wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:I read The Odyssey, and Troy was a city. So Zeus.
I saw Sex in the City, and New York is a city. So Mr Big.


I was watching Spongebob and Bikini Bottom so goddamn {!#%@} pineapple under the {!#%@} sea

Correct.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by busterggi » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:27 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:I read The Odyssey, and Troy was a city. So Zeus.
I saw Sex in the City, and New York is a city. So Mr Big.


Au contrair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Big ... Bullwinkle)

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:37 pm

bigtim wrote:Bible is not archeology... in fact many of it's comments/claims have been disproven....

The problem you have are "Biblical Archeologists" that go looking to prove the Bible right... and WOW! what do you know! they do!

"The Bible is true.
Is there evidence to prove this.
If not, make some up.
Therefore God."
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:27 am

hey how old was the oldest fragment of the old testiment i hearld some where that a piece of verse from mubers was found in the 6th century BC

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Bunyip » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:14 am

wakawakawaka wrote:hey how old was the oldest fragment of the old testiment i hearld some where that a piece of verse from mubers was found in the 6th century BC



Oldest extant fragments of the Torah date from around the second century BCE. Pretty good considering the Torah was not actually written down until the seventh century BCE.

Oldest ENTIRE Tanakh ( the 39 books of the Old Testament) is the Leningrad Codex,written in Cairo in 1009 CE.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... codex.html
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:58 am

then what about that fragment of the book of numbers is it just creationist propoganda :?:

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gord » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:31 am

wakawakawaka wrote:then what about that fragment of the book of numbers is it just creationist propoganda :?:

Do you mean the two silver scrolls that were used as amulets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketef_Hinnom

It should be noted that the wording on the scrolls does not match the wording from the books -- it's not a "quote" so much as it is "common form of prayer". In other words, the books themselves may not have been written yet, and these sayings were probably handed down orally, still changing over time.

Or to put it another way:

Dr. Wayne Pitard has stated that although evidence for the antiquity of the Priestly Blessing is now compelling, this does not necessarily mean that the Book of Numbers already existed at that time.[5] Dr. James R. Davila has similarly pointed out that the idea that the scrolls are "proof that the Five Books of Moses were in existence during the First Temple period" (as described in an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz) is "an overinterpretation of the evidence." He nonetheless acknowledged that the find proves that at least "some of the material found in the Five Books of Moses existed in the First Temple period."[10]
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:35 am

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html hey i am curious this guy apperently discouverd a whole bunch of tombs belonging to people in the bible how come nobody had heard of this stuff

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Poodle » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:58 am

Don't get too excited. None of those names were uncommon. Being called Jesus then and there is like being called John now. The discovery is interesting, but it would be a step too far to claim those people were "in the bible".

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:35 am

well i found the "Shappira" name thing rather strange

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Bunyip » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:00 am

@waka


Tangent:

There is an interesting film called "The Body" which you might enjoy:


The Body is a 2001 film based on a novel by Richard Sapir, and starring Antonio Banderas and Olivia Williams.

The movie follows Father Matt Gutierrez (Banderas), a Jesuit priest sent by the Vatican to investigate an archaeologic finding by Dr. Sharon Golban (Williams) which is suspected to be the remains of the body of Jesus Christ. This finding puts Gutierrez' faith and his doubts in constant confrontation with Golban's scientific views.

Also, the finding stirs the political problems between Palestine and Israel in the area, while also shaking the foundations of Christianity itself. Both of these problems put Dr. Golban, and Gutierrez himself, in danger.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_%282001_film%29
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:20 am

well how old is the oldest Christian articfact because there this guy called Grant Jeffery..he claims that Eleazar Sukenik of Hebrew University uncovered a First Century Jewish Catacomb at the southern end of the Kidron Valley on the road to Bethlehem.

He found several osssuaries with the sign of the cross, Greek inscriptions, and a coin minted in A.D. 41 for King Herod Agrippa I. This would seem to indicate that the tomb was sealed no later than at least A.D. 42.

Professor Sukenik stated that the ossuaries "contain almost the whole dictionary of names in the New Testament."

One of the coffins had an amazing inscription in Greek to Jesus followed by the exclamation "y'ho." When translated the inscription actually says, "Jesus is Jehovah (or Lord)."

Keeping in mind that these tombs and the inscriptions date back to 42 A.D., this would mean that within 10 years of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension the eye and ear witnesses of Christ were proclaiming that Jesus was indeed Jehovah God.

Christian theologian, Professor Alexander Hopkins, comments on the impact that this inscription has on modern New Testament scholarship:

"The inscription which was hidden for almost 2,000 years and inscribed at least two decades before any part of the New Testament was written... bears a personal testimony of faith... a message from the past with a very modern meaning for the present."
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:27 am

...and all of a sudden, wakawakawaka knows how to spell...
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:42 am

wakawakawaka wrote:One of the coffins had an amazing inscription in Greek to Jesus followed by the exclamation "y'ho." When translated the inscription actually says, "Jesus is Jehovah (or Lord)."


Debunked by Scientific American. The claim was based on the names "Jesus" and "Mary" being unique.
...... that the names unearthed in the so-called Jesus Family Tomb were among the most common of that era. One in every three women listed in the Lexicon was named Mary, for instance, and, at that time, one in every 20 Jewish men was called Yeshua, or Jesus.

The christain cross did not exist in 41AD as a concept. You should look at the the Alexamenos Graffiti to see the introduction of the cross into Roman culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Harte » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:11 am

Bunyip wrote:@waka


Tangent:

There is an interesting film called "The Body" which you might enjoy:


The movie follows Father Matt Gutierrez (Banderas), a Jesuit priest sent by the Vatican to investigate an archaeologic finding by Dr. Sharon Golban (Williams) which is suspected to be the remains of the body of Jesus Christ. This finding puts Gutierrez' faith and his doubts in constant confrontation with Golban's scientific views.

Also, the finding stirs the political problems between Palestine and Israel in the area, while also shaking the foundations of Christianity itself. Both of these problems put Dr. Golban, and Gutierrez himself, in danger.

Especially after he finds the Body - then eats it (in remembrance, of course.)

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:12 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:...and all of a sudden, wakawakawaka knows how to spell...

It's called "copy/paste". For instance: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php ... ostcount=1
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:28 pm

Gord wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...and all of a sudden, wakawakawaka knows how to spell...

It's called "copy/paste". For instance: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php ... ostcount=1

Sorry, my bad.

Thanks, Gord.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:55 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Gord wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...and all of a sudden, wakawakawaka knows how to spell...

It's called "copy/paste". For instance: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php ... ostcount=1

Sorry, my bad.

Thanks, Gord.

It wasn't a bad, it was a good call. Made me google it. That's how I figured it out.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:01 am

Yeah, I somewhat misunderstood at first, but now I see the light.

Gord moves in mysterious ways ... may he bless us all. :mrgreen:

Thanks again!
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Gord » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:18 pm

Gesundheit.
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:42 pm

what about the claim that early church fathers quoted large amounts of the NT and the NT can just be put together with their quotes which proves that no one has made major tamperments with the bible

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Poodle » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:25 pm

It rather depends upon how early those early church fathers were. The New Testament IS a collection of early writings, so it's no surprise that it can be put together from ... erm ... a collection of early writings which were quoted by the church fathers.

The NT, I assure you, really is the result of major tampering. A large number of books have been removed from the canon by decree, although there are sects (particularly in Ethiopia) who still have a largely unfixed NT. Of the books that remain, there are huge internal discordancies (particularly between the Gospels) and the very purposeful choice of the Pauline attitude to christianity is absolute evidence of interference.

No major tampering? And there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.

Have a look around the net for "early Christian heresies". Those are the bits which have been edited out. And you could take a look at ...

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/canon.html

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Bunyip » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:59 pm

Being called Jesus then and there is like being called John now.


Sorry,to be pendantic ,but "Jesus" is a Romanised version of a Greek word, "Iesous"

There is no letter " j" in Hebrew. Nobody actually knows 'Jesus' real Hebrew name. Most commonly,scholars think it may have been Yeshua or Yoshua,which were indeed both common.


The New Testament was written in Greek,and the name Jesus/Yeshua/Yoshua does not appear in the Old Testament as the name of the Messiah ( Jesus as the Messiah is a Christian invention.)
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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by Poodle » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:44 am

True - very true.

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Re: the bible and archeology

Post by wakawakawaka » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:13 pm