The Mass Murder Problem

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theonly
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The Mass Murder Problem

Postby theonly » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Article by David Hillshafer...

Is the 10 year period during which there was an assault weapon ban enough time to see an effect? I know little about guns, but I do know that they are relatively non-perishable. Is there any data as to how many gun crimes (homicides or mass murders) are committed with newly purchased guns, and how many with older, second hand, or stolen guns?

It seems to me that if a sizeable portion are committed with guns that were not bought in the conventional manner within a decade of the crime, a decade's ban might not show an effect that would become apparent if the ban were in place for a longer period of time.

Also, to my understanding (and I am far from an expert), part of the point of a ban is not just to restrict immediate access, but to change the culture surrounding the subject of the ban. Am I correct in this? If so, would that not also take more than a decade - perhaps even a time period spanning a generation in that high-risk age group mentioned in the article (15-50)?

Curious to hear others' thoughts.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Gord » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:22 am

From what I've heard in the past: No. The ban was expected to start having an effect after ten or twelve years.

But I don't know. That's what I heard, but it could have no basis in reality 'cause I listen to left-wing comedy shows for my news. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby theonly » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:45 am

Also that could have more to do with selling it as policy than with what could reasonably be expected... Not to be too cynical about it...

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:27 pm

Until I donated it to the Smithsonian I had a revolver made in 1850 and carried to Japan by Commodore Perry in 1853. Guns are rather imperishable if taken care of. Add to this some of my relatives who went deeply into debt to buy large numbers of firearms they thought were going to be banned, partly to have them and partly to speculate.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:50 pm

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19429&p=315251&hilit=Assault+Weapons#p315251


First, tell me what an "assault weapons" ban does?

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:46 pm

This again?

Well, let's have a look from another perspective.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:56 pm

fromthehills wrote:http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19429&p=315251&hilit=Assault+Weapons#p315251


First, tell me what an "assault weapons" ban does?

No one is going to take you on ......but it is more because of personality. than because the are no valid arguments against assault weapons in personal possession OR the bizarre American reality of a rabid minority holding a huge population in thrall to their odd conception of a viable freedom.
That said, while I did thoroughly enjoy John Olivor's interview with the fool for his gun, is it really fair....or more important conducive to the solution to one of our most serious social fractures to pit the stupidest, most inept of "theirs" against the cleverest of "ours," in the interest of satire for an even smaller minority?
It has already been established that the NRA has no sense of humor.
What they have are powerful political allies, money, and one note determination.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:54 pm

If you can't define it you should have said so. tl;dr posts get tedious after a few centuries.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:45 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If you can't define it you should have said so. tl;dr posts get tedious after a few centuries.

Really?
More tedious than posts that are editorial directives from a non editor?
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:56 pm

nmblum wrote:
fromthehills wrote:http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19429&p=315251&hilit=Assault+Weapons#p315251


First, tell me what an "assault weapons" ban does?

No one is going to take you on ......but it is more because of personality. than because the are no valid arguments against assault weapons in personal possession OR the bizarre American reality of a rabid minority holding a huge population in thrall to their odd conception of a viable freedom.
That said, while I did thoroughly enjoy John Olivor's interview with the fool for his gun, is it really fair....or more important conducive to the solution to one of our most serious social fractures to pit the stupidest, most inept of "theirs" against the cleverest of "ours," in the interest of satire for an even smaller minority?
It has already been established that the NRA has no sense of humor.
What they have are powerful political allies, money, and one note determination.

NMB


I'll look for the interview. I thought the song that Jim Carrie(SP?) did was funny, but most of the public gun figures lost their mind over it. The joke must've hit too close.

But...You are on to something with the idea of exposing the unpopular inept with great wit. The Young Turks ate a popular gun instructor alive for his ridiculous rants. I can't blame them, but in doing so they were merely picking the low hanging fruit, and exposing their own ignorance of guns. Sure, their somewhat witty remarks probably fed the uneducated in firearms, but didn't serve any intellectual need for the right discussion about guns.

My position is, of course, that an "assault weapons" ban has no effect. Here in Colorado they limited magazine capacity to 15 rounds for pistols and rifles. The sale of higher capacity mags will be prohibited as of July 1, giving everyone plenty of time to stock up on them. They won't be illegal to own. The rest of any proposed ban is merely aesthetic, and has no meaning.

My opinion is that antigun folks are looking for feel good legislation that does nothing to solve the violence problem. And it's out of misunderstanding and fear of an implement. It says that the millions of gun owners that don't shoot people should pay for the sins of the few, just as millions of people have given up their 4th amendment rights, because of the war on drugs and a couple of jihadists. It's saying we don't trust you, and we think that we should be able to rummage through your personal affects, and listen in on your conversations. Punishing the whole for the sins of the few.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:03 pm

There is no doubt that giving up one's civil rights under the guise of being protected from what might happen in the future is a devil's bargain .
And so far no society in history has been able to successfully negotiate such a pact ....the devil of totalitarian intrusion ( and worse)has always come out on top.
But what to do about the proliferation of armaments in inappropriate, including simply inept hands?
You can't really keep coming up with rational reasons for more laws being mere overkill, without at least trying to address the need for some stop-gap measures that might allow for us to think further about what is a national ethos of anger and violence, gun owners and non-gun owners as well.
{!#%@} everybody and everything seems more and more to be our.national pledge.
NMB
..
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:03 pm

nmblum wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If you can't define it you should have said so. tl;dr posts get tedious after a few centuries.

Really?
More tedious than posts that are editorial directives from a non editor?
NMB

OR nonsense posts from the peanut gallery?
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:42 pm

nmblum wrote:There is no doubt that giving up one's civil rights under the guise of being protected from what might happen in the future is a devil's bargain .
And so far no society in history has been able to successfully negotiate such a pact ....the devil of totalitarian intrusion ( and worse)has always come out on top.
But what to do about the proliferation of armaments in inappropriate, including simply inept hands?
You can't really keep coming up with rational reasons for more laws being mere overkill, without at least trying to address the need for some stop-gap measures that might allow for us to think further about what is a national ethos of anger and violence, gun owners and non-gun owners as well.
{!#%@} everybody and everything seems more and more to be our.national pledge.
NMB
..


Well, stop-gap measures seem easier to apply than to get rid of.

I think the universal background check is needed. Obviously. I think firearms instruction should be required before one can purchase a gun. Perhaps even a psych eval. But legislating the looks of a gun isn't a plausible deterrent for violence, and, in my opinion, is a fight that is detracting for more beneficial legislation. Stopping the War on Drugs, and using that money to address the actual reasons people become violent would be a great place to start.

Then tell politicians that their security detail has to abide by the same laws that they lay on the citizenry they are supposed to represent. They cannot rightfully expect to take away the ability of a law abiding citizen to protect themselves, but hire armed Blackwater contractors to protect them. On our dime, no less. Sorry, but I kinda like living as much as they do, and I feel exceptionally duty bound to own and train with the means to protect my life and the lives of those I love.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:13 pm

Pure melodrama,, From......no one is coming to get you....yet (the promised race war has not yet started)and we have broken the spirit of the Apaches who might once have given us a lesson in some needed humility.
Who else is it that you think is about to invade?
And your house,rather than mine?
NMB

P.S. STop advertising the superior brands of beer.....with which I can't compete.
Who would assault a household with supermarket brands?
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:58 pm

nmblum wrote:Pure melodrama,, From......no one is coming to get you....yet (the promised race war has not yet started)and we have broken the spirit of the Apaches who might once have given us a lesson in some needed humility.
Who else is it that you think is about to invade?
And your house,rather than mine?
NMB

P.S. STop advertising the superior brands of beer.....with which I can't compete.
Who would assault a household with supermarket brands?
N.

If Quantitative Easing, declaring corporations to be people, bailing out banks etc is not an attack on every American household, I don't know what is.

As the French demonstrated in 1789, there are benefits to the populace retaining the power to take a little bit off the top of the top few percent.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:52 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
nmblum wrote:Pure melodrama,, From......no one is coming to get you....yet (the promised race war has not yet started)and we have broken the spirit of the Apaches who might once have given us a lesson in some needed humility.
Who else is it that you think is about to invade?
And your house,rather than mine?
NMB

P.S. STop advertising the superior brands of beer.....with which I can't compete.
Who would assault a household with supermarket brands?
N.

If Quantitative Easing, declaring corporations to be people, bailing out banks etc is not an attack on every American household, I don't know what is.

As the French demonstrated in 1789, there are benefits to the populace retaining the power to take a little bit off the top of the top few percent.

I like it.
And I'd like it even better if this were 1790.
But in 1871the Communards of Paris (who weren't really asking for much from an intransigent government)were slaughtered,wiped out,their leaders shot in front of a cemetery wall,and buried in a mass grave,
But all was not lost....every year their courage and revolutionary fervor is celebrated by whatever lousy goverment is in power: flowers are placed before the wall and on the grave.
The dead remain conspicuously dead.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:11 pm

They certainly do, which tidbit just goes to show that the trimming needs to be done every now and then - once is not enough.

I've a grudging respect for those little ultra right wing militias that crop up here and there. Respect, because I think they really are trying to keep the gov't honorable' grudging because their understanding of the problem is usually based on prevailing conspiracy theories.

But . . . perspective is important. Louis Riel is widely regarded as a hero in western Canada and Quebec, as a villain in Ontario.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Gord » Wed May 01, 2013 12:45 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Louis Riel is widely regarded as a hero in western Canada....

...which I still don't get.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:14 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:They certainly do, which tidbit just goes to show that the trimming needs to be done every now and then - once is not enough.

I've a grudging respect for those little ultra right wing militias that crop up here and there. Respect, because I think they really are trying to keep the gov't honorable' grudging because their understanding of the problem is usually based on prevailing conspiracy theories.

But . . . perspective is important. Louis Riel is widely regarded as a hero in western Canada and Quebec, as a villain in Ontario.

I have no idea what any of that means.....but I.made no mention of "right wing nuts."
And I.hope that no one, here or anywhere,, thinks I was suggesting anything remotely like such a thing about FTH whom I think of as among the most rational of disputants In any discussion here revolving around guns, or gun control.
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 3:28 am

I don't think anyone that knows me thinks I'm a rightwing nut. A nut, perhaps, but not rightwing. I view politics like cars; whichever brand is performing best is the one I want, but I wish there was more competition.

I'm also not of the paranoid mindset. I don't think that I'll ever have to use a gun in defense of my home and family, but the victims in such things never do. But let's turn that around. If no one is planning on attacking me, then there is no reason to fear that I have a gun.

Let's be clear, on the same page, I mean. Blackwater, and I assume you know it's not a beer brand, is defunct in name. Still, it's alive and well under subsidiary names, and I believe Sen. Feinstein's security detail is made up of these contractors. Now I feel a tinge of regret, now and then, but not often, that I didn't pursue Special Forces to get out and gain a six figure job with Blackwater or Triple Canopy, or the like. But still, for a very gun ignorant person to push legislation that limits the ability of law abiding citizens, their rights as Americans to defend themselves, while gainfully employing armed mercenaries for security is the hypocrisy of one that believes their life is more important than mine.

Slaughter of innocents, especially children, is horrific, and I don't believe that there is anyone in their right mind that can think otherwise. I own guns; I own a pressure cooker, too. I have boxes of nails in my shop, and gasoline, diesel fuel, horse {!#%@}, black powder. Lots of things that should be banned using the same logic as the Feinstein bill. Except, under her proposal, metaphorically, pressure cookers don't look scary, but combat boots do. She doesn't propose getting rid of the gun with the most kills, the basic revolver, but rather the one that her very security detail prefers which is responsible for less than 1% of firearm related deaths in this country. The revolver holds 5-6 rounds, and is very slow to reload, but is the preferred weapon of drug turf murderers for it's affordability and reliability. But who cares, right? They are the pariah, killing their own. :sarcasm: When our precious blond kids get killed by a lunatic with a scary looking, yet still semi-auto sporting rifle, let's attack that! Because, we can step on the graves of children holding a "scary weapon of war" to convince the masses, the uneducated in firearms, to back our agenda.

Again, I'm among the tens of millions of gun owners that don't shoot people. I'm asking people to take a skeptical look at the proposed "assault weapons" ban. It's an absolutely worthless piece of legislation that only detracts from the real cause of violence in this country. And sadly, we are going to get the occasional nutter, regardless of the amount of restrictions we put upon non-nutters.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 01, 2013 4:48 am

fromthehills wrote:I don't think anyone that knows me thinks I'm a rightwing nut. A nut, perhaps, but not rightwing. I view politics like cars; whichever brand is performing best is the one I want, but I wish there was more competition.

I'm also not of the paranoid mindset. I don't think that I'll ever have to use a gun in defense of my home and family, but the victims in such things never do. But let's turn that around. If no one is planning on attacking me, then there is no reason to fear that I have a gun.

Let's be clear, on the same page, I mean. Blackwater, and I assume you know it's not a beer brand, is defunct in name. Still, it's alive and well under subsidiary names, and I believe Sen. Feinstein's security detail is made up of these contractors. Now I feel a tinge of regret, now and then, but not often, that I didn't pursue Special Forces to get out and gain a six figure job with Blackwater or Triple Canopy, or the like. But still, for a very gun ignorant person to push legislation that limits the ability of law abiding citizens, their rights as Americans to defend themselves, while gainfully employing armed mercenaries for security is the hypocrisy of one that believes their life is more important than mine.

Slaughter of innocents, especially children, is horrific, and I don't believe that there is anyone in their right mind that can think otherwise. I own guns; I own a pressure cooker, too. I have boxes of nails in my shop, and gasoline, diesel fuel, horse {!#%@}, black powder. Lots of things that should be banned using the same logic as the Feinstein bill. Except, under her proposal, metaphorically, pressure cookers don't look scary, but combat boots do. She doesn't propose getting rid of the gun with the most kills, the basic revolver, but rather the one that her very security detail prefers which is responsible for less than 1% of firearm related deaths in this country. The revolver holds 5-6 rounds, and is very slow to reload, but is the preferred weapon of drug turf murderers for it's affordability and reliability. But who cares, right? They are the pariah, killing their own. :sarcasm: When our precious blond kids get killed by a lunatic with a scary looking, yet still semi-auto sporting rifle, let's attack that! Because, we can step on the graves of children holding a "scary weapon of war" to convince the masses, the uneducated in firearms, to back our agenda.

Again, I'm among the tens of millions of gun owners that don't shoot people. I'm asking people to take a skeptical look at the proposed "assault weapons" ban. It's an absolutely worthless piece of legislation that only detracts from the real cause of violence in this country. And sadly, we are going to get the occasional nutter, regardless of the amount of restrictions we put upon non-nutters.

Was gonna thank from, but there ain't no button!?

Well, thank you, fromthehills. :-D
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 5:00 am

Cheers, Eggs.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed May 01, 2013 5:13 am

fromthehills wrote:Again, I'm among the tens of millions of gun owners that don't shoot people. I'm asking people to take a skeptical look at the proposed "assault weapons" ban. It's an absolutely worthless piece of legislation that only detracts from the real cause of violence in this country. And sadly, we are going to get the occasional nutter, regardless of the amount of restrictions we put upon non-nutters.

The manufacturers can still manufacture and sell.

Its like telling the drug dealers they are now perfectly legal, but the junkies are breaking the law if they have any in their possession.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 5:41 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Again, I'm among the tens of millions of gun owners that don't shoot people. I'm asking people to take a skeptical look at the proposed "assault weapons" ban. It's an absolutely worthless piece of legislation that only detracts from the real cause of violence in this country. And sadly, we are going to get the occasional nutter, regardless of the amount of restrictions we put upon non-nutters.

The manufacturers can still manufacture and sell.

Its like telling the drug dealers they are now perfectly legal, but the junkies are breaking the law if they have any in their possession.



Here in Colorado, a very good company, IMO, called Magpul in response to the 15 round limit on mag capacity told us that they'll be moving to another state. Our reps, in their infinite wisdom, said exactly what you are saying, referring to, I mean. "Don't move! And lay off the 200+ workers, and ± 700 contractors, we're just saying that our residents can't buy your main product."

Shite. Hypocrites and shite.

What I think is admirable is that several companies, now, have made it policy to withhold sales to law enforcement and government in places where civilians are not allowed to own their products. Companies that all get hardons over being patriotic are now telling the government to {!#%@} off, at their own cost. Veteran owned companies are taking losses in profit to make a statement: If I don't need a 30 rd mag, neither do the cops

Edit: Referring to, not saying. I'm in agreement
Last edited by fromthehills on Wed May 01, 2013 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 01, 2013 5:42 am

The whole idea of restrictions is to keep weapons of mass murder out of the hands of nutters, and limit their issue to responsible users.
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 5:50 am

Major Malfunction wrote:The whole idea of restrictions is to keep weapons of mass murder out of the hands of nutters, and limit their issue to responsible users.



Right. So turn in your Christmas pressure cooker. You know, so people that want to turn them into bombs don't get them.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 01, 2013 5:53 am

Major Malfunction wrote:The whole idea of restrictions is to keep weapons of mass murder out of the hands of nutters, and limit their issue to responsible users.

'nuther Thank you!

Edit: I can appreciate the argument of those that truly mean well, but I still think they are being used. Does that make sense?
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 6:04 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Edit: I can see the argument of those that truly mean well, but I still think they are being used. Does that make sense?


Not exactly, but I'm willing to listen.

And to clarify, MM. I'm for keeping guns out of the hands of the wackos; I just don't think that they, the ubiquitous, are going about it in any effective or meaningful way.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 01, 2013 6:18 am

fromthehills wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Edit: I can see the argument of those that truly mean well, but I still think they are being used. Does that make sense?


Not exactly, but I'm willing to listen.


And to clarify, MM. I'm for keeping guns out of the hands of the wackos; I just don't think that they, the ubiquitous, are going about it in any effective or meaningful way.

fromthehills wrote:I'm asking people to take a skeptical look at the proposed "assault weapons" ban. It's an absolutely worthless piece of legislation that only detracts from the real cause of violence in this country

I guess that's what I meant. Some things certainly need to be looked at and changed. But the real issues are being pushed aside and drowned out by hysterical shrieks about whatever is in the headlines. Or on someone's agenda.
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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed May 01, 2013 6:22 am

fromthehills wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:The whole idea of restrictions is to keep weapons of mass murder out of the hands of nutters, and limit their issue to responsible users.



Right. So turn in your Christmas pressure cooker. You know, so people that want to turn them into bombs don't get them.

That's an unfair analogy and you know it.
One can put gasolinne in a coke bottle, toss it in a crowd and cause havoc.
And I could kill you, had I the inclination, by hitting you on the head with a frozen leg of lamb.
You can't in good conscience be dismissive of every attempt to put limits on the proliferation of personal arsenals that challenge public safety and the general good.
Because, I think, when you do you effectively close down any attempt to adjudicate an increasingly divisive social problem....divisive even among what is now known as "the people of the guns."
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 01, 2013 6:24 am

I know, from. We're coming at different angles, and making the same vector. You don't give tanks to twelve year olds. That's a restriction.
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed May 01, 2013 6:33 am

fromthehills wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Edit: I can see the argument of those that truly mean well, but I still think they are being used. Does that make sense?


Not exactly, but I'm willing to listen.

And to clarify, MM. I'm for keeping guns out of the hands of the wackos; I just don't think that they, the ubiquitous, are going about it in any effective or meaningful way.

Okay....so let's hear a meaningful way.
Perhaps a start might be to eliminate "wackos" from the vocabulary of the discussion.
As we now know, what is a "wacko" to some of us is a "freedom fighter" to his mother.
And what seems like a strange obsession to me,,,is a man standing in his doorway, guns blazing, defending home, hearth, women and children from who know whom, as in vigilante justice in the Wild West,
NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 01, 2013 6:47 am

Eliminating wackos would solve the problem, yes.
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Eliminating wackos would solve the problem, yes.

Facile and dismissive ......
And unfortunately in our country what you think of as wackos can be found in the higher echelons of the Defense Department....
But I'm curious:how would you eliminate half the population?
Gas?
Or in the ultimate irony, just shoot them after one conclusive round-up,and bulldoze them into one enormous pit, the size of Tasmania?

NMB
Last edited by nmblum88 on Wed May 01, 2013 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby Austin Harper » Wed May 01, 2013 2:16 pm

Have you guys seen the latest series on The Daily Show featuring John Oliver comparing gun control in the United States and Australia?

Gun Control Whoop-De-Doo
Thursday April 18, 2013
Following the Senate's defeat of the Manchin-Toomey amendment, John Oliver tests the theory that government-mandated gun control doesn't work.

Gun Control & Political Suicide
Tuesday April 23, 2013
John Oliver vows that never again will a political career end in a senseless act of meaningful legislation.

Australia & Gun Control's Aftermath
Thursday April 25, 2013
John Oliver learns it's pointless for America to study the Australian gun control experience because the situations are just too similar.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 01, 2013 2:23 pm

nmblum wrote:Okay....so let's hear a meaningful way.
Perhaps a start might be to eliminate "wackos" from the vocabulary of the discussion.
As we now know, what is a "wacko" to some of us is a "freedom fighter" to his mother.
And what seems like a strange obsession to me,,,is a man standing in his doorway, guns blazing, defending home, hearth, women and children from who know whom, as in vigilante justice in the Wild West,
NMB


I have been giving ways that I think would be far more effective. I've tried to explain that plastic furniture doesn't make a rifle into an assault weapon. As MM has pointed out, we have restrictions on assault weapons. I can't legally buy a machine gun, full auto rifle, sub-machinegun, grenade launcher, C4, hand grenade, rocket launcher, etc. These are examples of actual assault weapons, actual weapons of war.

I can carry a pistol in my state, but not an auto-knife, aka switchblade. Another meaningless, feel good restriction, as I can carry a fixed blade, and I can open my pocket knife about as fast as an auto folder.

But, what seems a strange obsession to you, a beautifully painted straw man, and B movie image isn't what I'm arguing for. As you know. I'm saying that, so far, in most of our country, we have the right to own an equalizing factor for the means of defense. Obama parading school children around, and calling something a weapon of war is nonsense. Just as I was trying to point out. He may as well go ahead and wheel the legless out and call pressure cookers WMDs. And he either knows that an AR15 isn't a weapon of war, and he's lying. Or he's too ignorant to send in Special Ops teams into dangerous missions, because one weapon that Seal Team Six isn't carrying into battle is an AR15.

I bought another rifle called an MP15-.22. Under the proposed ban it would be illegal to purchase, but it shoots the same round that I shot hundreds of when I was 7 years old. But my .30-30 lever action that can put down a bear would be perfectly legal. How many times do I need to explain the joke? The actual weapon of war that I own, mine's from WWII, is the British .303 . It's been used to kill people all over the world, and second only to the AK47 for the amount of kills it's type has chalked up. Still not a targeted gun under the ban. I had, and sold, a Nazi Mauser Mark II. A war trophy that some hick hacked up to make a deer rifle. Shoots a devastating 8mm round, but it doesn't look as scary as the plastic 5.56mm rifles.

Please, be anti-gun. It's a free country, mostly, still. I'm not trying to persuade you to go get geared up with an AR and 7 30rd mags. I'm trying to ask you to be educated on what you are against. Painting the picture of some wannabe Rambo isn't a grand argument. I know there are a few goofballs out there, but even they aren't advocating the killing of innocent people. Locally, most, 90% I'd say, of our firefighters, EMTs, Search and Rescue, the people that give a {!#%@} enough to volunteer countless hours in the pursuit of saving lives, are gun owners, and many of them have AR15s. Most of them, all that I know of, vote Democrat and aren't NRA members. Anecdotal, sure, but I don't think exceptional.

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Re: The Mass Murder Problem

Postby nmblum88 » Wed May 01, 2013 6:49 pm

Great spot on the program.....like following Barrymore reading Hamlet with a recitatif from a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
But ever foolhardy, I'll just plow on even if .....no,I don.t know a Glock from a Glockespiel.
I appreciate your passion for your subject AND your guns,,,,Ido understand, too some righteous anger at being seen not as a sentient human but simply asrepresenting a generally despised point of view.
But within the discussion of gun ownership as a manifestation of personal freedom and civil rights there is this: the laws that already assure you right to have, and possibly use guns,does conflict with the rights of others to lead lives free of fear,even terror,for our lives and the lives of those WE love.
You already have your guns....to the tune by extension of 3 hundred million in the hands of who knows whom and why (I always suspect that half of them are lying on doors waiting for babies to play with them).....so can't you concede that giventhe imbalance between your playground and mine, something has to be done that might make both of us less angry where we stand, looking at each other across the increasing divide?
NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."


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