New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

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New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Daniel Loxton » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:44 pm

We're pleased to launch the new Junior Skeptic wing of Skeptic.com. Check it out!

Phase One content is complete and live, featuring essentials like a back issue browser, FAQ, staff bios, and subscription info. It's now easy to explore, look up, or order back issues of Junior Skeptic.

Visit and link to Junior Skeptic's new home on the web: http://www.skeptic.com/junior_skeptic/

Then, watch for upcoming Phase Two improvements and exclusive new content. In the coming months, we'll be adding valuable free resources for parents, students, teachers and researchers—not to mention plenty of fun extras.

Enjoy!

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:24 am

is junior skeptic like skeptic indoctrination of the youth?

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Chachacha » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:39 am

tho wrote:is junior skeptic like skeptic indoctrination of the youth?


Depends on your interpretation of "indoctrination". Raising a child in a religion is "indoctrination" because it uses a child's naïveté and willingness to believe in fanciful things to indoctrinate them into a belief before they have the ability to discern the difference between make-believe and reality, and filling them with fear of what will happen if they grow-up and out of those childish beliefs.

Teaching children/young adults to use their brains is not indoctrination. Teaching them to believe in things which don't exist in order to be saved from something from which they cannot be saved is indoctrination. One is education, the other is indoctrination.

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:05 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:is junior skeptic like skeptic indoctrination of the youth?

lol, good point, actually.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby bigtim » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:12 am

Hotair101 wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:is junior skeptic like skeptic indoctrination of the youth?

lol, good point, actually.


??? No, it's not a good point. There is a key difference, as Cha says:

Chachacha wrote:Teaching children/young adults to use their brains is not indoctrination. Teaching them to believe in things which don't exist in order to be saved from something from which they cannot be saved is indoctrination. One is education, the other is indoctrination.


Here:
in⋅doc⋅tri⋅nate-verb (used with object), -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.

critical thinking -noun
Definition: the mental process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating information to reach an answer or conclusion


Junior Skeptic is about teaching kids to question and explore, study and learn -- not to blindly accept. So, no, it's not, and calling it such is just throwing out the bias against evaluatory thought.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:27 pm

Would you not say critical thinking is an ideology?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:38 pm

Critical thinking is no more an ideology than a wrench is an ideology.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:40 pm

States that by attending to the ideological aspects of critical thinking,

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/cu ... o=EJ371138

The philosopher-sociologist Jürgen Habermas has critiqued pure instrumental rationality as meaning that scientific-thinking becomes something akin to ideology itself.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism


http://books.google.com/books?id=13cZqR ... gy&f=false

There are also some counter arguments for teaching critical thinking to youths but I will look for the links when I have more time.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby bigtim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:31 pm

wait... wow.. .really/ Hotair is actually citing sources!

AWESOME!!!

I will read every link when time permits today!

schwaeet, a real debate. Nicely done Hot!
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Paul » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:39 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Critical thinking is no more an ideology than a wrench is an ideology.

Needs repeating :roll: ;)
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Thranil » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:25 pm

Hotair101 wrote:There are also some counter arguments for teaching critical thinking to youths but I will look for the links when I have more time.


Oh really? Wow, with so many studies that have shown how much more ethical & effective adults are when taught to think critically as a child... I can't wait to see what you dredge up for this!
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby bigtim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:31 pm

Hotair101 wrote:Would you not say critical thinking is an ideology?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology


According to Wikipedia "Critical thinking is the purposeful and reflective judgment about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments. Critical thinking involves determining the meaning and significance of what is observed or expressed, or, concerning a given inference or argument, determining whether there is adequate justification to accept the conclusion as true."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

While an ideology is "An ideology is a set of aims and ideas that directs one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a 'received consciousness' or product of socialization)." (your above link).

Both definitions are different. If you're trying to say that critical thinking is an ideology I think you're missing the point of both.

I'll include dictionary definitions of the terms (though I think I did this before...):

i⋅de⋅ol⋅o⋅gy
–noun, plural -gies.
1. the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.
2. such a body of doctrine, myth, etc., with reference to some political and social plan, as that of fascism, along with the devices for putting it into operation.
3. Philosophy. a. the study of the nature and origin of ideas.
b. a system that derives ideas exclusively from sensation.
4. theorizing of a visionary or impractical nature.

critical thinking
–noun
1. the mental process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating information to reach an answer or conclusion


As you can see both are very different.

Hotair101 wrote:States that by attending to the ideological aspects of critical thinking,

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/cu ... o=EJ371138


Not having the actual text to review I can't say that is supports your assertion. I think, in fact, it may contradict it. But, it's obvious that the 1st hit with a Google search of "Ideology and Critical Thinking" comes up with this link; so we'll have to dig more.

Hotair101 wrote:The philosopher-sociologist Jürgen Habermas has critiqued pure instrumental rationality as meaning that scientific-thinking becomes something akin to ideology itself.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism


I'm not really sure how the philosophy of positivism relates to this?

"Positivism is a philosophy which holds the only authentic knowledge is that which is based on actual sense experience..... As an approach to the philosophy of science deriving from Enlightenment thinkers like Pierre-Simon Laplace (and many others), Comte saw the scientific method as replacing metaphysics in the history of thought, and observed the circular dependence of theory and observation in science."

This would seem to support critical thinking as a tool.


Hotair101 wrote:http://books.google.com/books?id=13cZqR ... gy&f=false

There are also some counter arguments for teaching critical thinking to youths but I will look for the links when I have more time.


Okay, now I think you're just tossing links in. I read the Google book excerpt and it does nothing at all to support your claim. I'd say it's at worst a contradiction or at best a non-sequitor. The reason why I think it was hit in your search was this:

"There are numerous examples of this in our schools today. In our local community, we often hear stories of problem-posing methods being used to help students learn and apply critical thinking." This was an example supporting use of problem-posing methods of teaching as opposed to the "banking" method referred to earlier in that page.

Honestly, I don't really think your last link has any bearing on your claim that critical thinking is an ideology.

You made reference to Jürgen Habermas.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/habermas/

"Jürgen Habermas currently ranks as one of the most influential philosophers in the world. Bridging continental and Anglo-American traditions of thought.....However, if one looks back over his corpus of work, one can discern two broad lines of enduring interest, one having to do with the political domain, the other with issues of rationality, communication, and knowledge."

He has a fairly large body of work. Could you provide a specific example of what he says to support your assertion that critical thinking is itself an ideology?

If anything I think perhaps he does the opposite. This segment here seems to talk about critical process in discussion being used uses critical processes in order to present argument.

"Given the ampliative character of most arguments, logical assessment presupposes the dialectical adequacy of argumentative procedures. That is, we may regard the products of our argument-making practices as logically strong only if we presume, at the dialectical level, that we have submitted arguments and counterarguments to sufficiently severe procedures of critical discussion—as Habermas (TCA 1: 26) puts it, a “ritualized competition for the better arguments.” Dialectical treatments of argumentation typically spell out the “dialectical obligations” of discussants: that one should address the issue at hand, should respond to relevant challenges, meet the specified burden of proof, and so on."

Thank you.

I look forward to your counter.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Thranil » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:35 pm

Well, to be fair, tim, he did warn us that he's full of it from his forum name...
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby bigtim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:57 pm

Thranil wrote:Well, to be fair, tim, he did warn us that he's full of it from his forum name...


yes, but this is the first time he's really provided links to try and support his claim, and I want to encourage that :-)
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:50 am

Thranil wrote:Well, to be fair, tim, he did warn us that he's full of it from his forum name...

Thanks for being so fair. That's big of you.
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Chachacha » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:11 am

That's why he's called "Big" Tim.

Well, one of the reasons.

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby vanderpoel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:23 am

Chachacha wrote:That's why he's called "Big" Tim.

Well, one of the reasons.

Go to sleep Cha!
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Chachacha » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:32 am

vanderpoel wrote:
Chachacha wrote:That's why he's called "Big" Tim.

Well, one of the reasons.

Go to sleep Cha!


:lol: Just woke up! Haven't had coffee, perhaps shouldn't be posting! :)

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:35 am

Chachacha wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
Chachacha wrote:That's why he's called "Big" Tim.

Well, one of the reasons.

Go to sleep Cha!


:lol: Just woke up! Haven't had coffee, perhaps shouldn't be posting! :)

What a ridiculous notion..................... ;)
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Thranil » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:01 pm

Hotair101 wrote:
Thranil wrote:Well, to be fair, tim, he did warn us that he's full of it from his forum name...

Thanks for being so fair. That's big of you.


Sure thing! 8-)
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Chachacha » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:06 pm

Hotair101 wrote:
Chachacha wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
Chachacha wrote:That's why he's called "Big" Tim.

Well, one of the reasons.

Go to sleep Cha!


:lol: Just woke up! Haven't had coffee, perhaps shouldn't be posting! :)

What a ridiculous notion..................... ;)


.... edit delete, delete, delete ........................... ;).

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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:03 pm

Gonna concede this one, Tim, if don't mind?
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Re: New Junior Skeptic wing at Skeptic.com

Postby Hotair101 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:00 pm

Here, Tim, I've found some links that will give you a clue what I was getting at before. Below is a bio on a professor who argues that critical thinking is not ideological.

http://www.as.miami.edu/phi/v1/siegel/index.htm

In the link below his argument is presented and critiqued by H.A. Alexander of the University of Judaism.

http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/EPS/PES-Yearbook ... ander.html

Here are some of the pro's and con's as to why it should/should not be taught as part of the educational curriculum.

http://www.wce.wwu.edu/Resources/CEP/eJ ... a006.shtml
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