doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

A skeptical look at medical practices
User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:41 am

society is in a transition - with the population nearing 8 billion

doctors still have to worry about legal stuff .

doctors need to be able to detain people and forcibly medicate without fear of being sued .

there needs to be a time period that doctors can do what they know is right ;

without worrying about being sued or arrested . say maybe 66 days .

anyone who is sane should be able to survive a doctors help longer than that .

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:01 am

Well Psyche: we basically had that pre Ronald Reagan and the entire concept was thrown out rather than regulated because of the perceived abuses. So now...... AS ALWAYS....we have AS TOO OFTEN THE CASE....many more abuses that are even worse.

for some reason, the cost of running a social services program is seen as Big Gubment, whereas the cost of social and civil unrest caused by the mentally ill is seen as an isolated unconnected "crime" issue.

but all you have to do is: Look.........and connect a few dots. But, we don't.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:59 am

I don`t know... 66 days in an isolation chamber and drugged with psychopathic meds, would probably make most people go insane. And if they didn`t go insane, it sure would be a recipe for a revenge killing. But it would be a hell of a way for a doctor to get rid of enemies - wife/husband, spouse`s lover, boss, ex, etc.

Plus - just think of what can happen during that time - job lost, mortgage defaulted, car repossessed...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:52 am

TJrandom wrote:I don`t know... 66 days in an isolation chamber and drugged with psychopathic meds, would probably make most people go insane. And if they didn`t go insane, it sure would be a recipe for a revenge killing. But it would be a hell of a way for a doctor to get rid of enemies - wife/husband, spouse`s lover, boss, ex, etc.

Plus - just think of what can happen during that time - job lost, mortgage defaulted, car repossessed...
Drugs........yes.... according to sound and accepted medical practice and peer review.

What isolation chamber?

Quite the coincidence for an enemy of the doc to be involuntarily committed.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t know... 66 days in an isolation chamber and drugged with psychopathic meds, would probably make most people go insane. And if they didn`t go insane, it sure would be a recipe for a revenge killing. But it would be a hell of a way for a doctor to get rid of enemies - wife/husband, spouse`s lover, boss, ex, etc.

Plus - just think of what can happen during that time - job lost, mortgage defaulted, car repossessed...
Drugs........yes.... according to sound and accepted medical practice and peer review.

What isolation chamber?

Quite the coincidence for an enemy of the doc to be involuntarily committed.
Ever visited a mental hospital? The one I saw had a padded room as the intake holding cell - one person, so yes, isolation.

And drugs according to the vast leeway that doctors have with prescriptions - with it being extremely rare for one to be taken down for malpractice? A good friend of mine stunk, quite litrally from the psychopathic drugs he was prescribed and eventually drove his car at high speed into a grove of large trees, leaving his wife and five daughters to fend for themselves. They cooked his brain.

Finally, absolute power corrupts, and that is what the OP proposed – doctors to have greater power to detain – for 66 days?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 32212
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:44 pm

It's April 1st, right?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:17 pm

Gord wrote:It's April 1st, right?
If only... that youngest daughter was just months old. Luckily his mother and wife conspired to have him cremated ASAP, so that the meds wouldn`t come up and foul the accidental death proviso of his life insurance.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:21 pm

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t know... 66 days in an isolation chamber and drugged with psychopathic meds, would probably make most people go insane. And if they didn`t go insane, it sure would be a recipe for a revenge killing. But it would be a hell of a way for a doctor to get rid of enemies - wife/husband, spouse`s lover, boss, ex, etc.

Plus - just think of what can happen during that time - job lost, mortgage defaulted, car repossessed...
Drugs........yes.... according to sound and accepted medical practice and peer review.

What isolation chamber?

Quite the coincidence for an enemy of the doc to be involuntarily committed.

---- how did he get involved with shrinks ? was he forced or pressured to take meds ?
----- how long was he taking meds ?

Ever visited a mental hospital? The one I saw had a padded room as the intake holding cell - one person, so yes, isolation.

And drugs according to the vast leeway that doctors have with prescriptions - with it being extremely rare for one to be taken down for malpractice? A good friend of mine stunk, quite litrally from the psychopathic drugs he was prescribed and eventually drove his car at high speed into a grove of large trees, leaving his wife and five daughters to fend for themselves. They cooked his brain.

Finally, absolute power corrupts, and that is what the OP proposed – doctors to have greater power to detain – for 66 days?
why did he get into meds and shrinks ?
how long and what meds ?
did he try to quit ?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:00 am

Details of a new idea are mostly irrelevant, eg: 66 days or 21 days (which I think is the current standard) isn't the issue but rather should there be one at all? And that is just another way of framing how much of what kind of social services should be used instead of the criminal justice system. On THAT relevant question...I think we need less law and more mental health services. ........DETAILS: to be set.

Being alone in a padded cell while being evaluated is not solitary confinement: unless you {!#%@} in public yourself.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:17 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:...

why did he get into meds and shrinks ?
how long and what meds ?
did he try to quit ?
From the best I could determine (personal interaction with him) he was a manic depressive – super elated in one meeting, but severely depressed in the next. He was facing a tenure deadline and had 4 and a half kids. At one time he was trying to get Edwin Reischauer (a famous US ambassador to Japan, and author) to a symposium he was trying to set up, and at another time wanting to get out of the university system and into business – but without a high likelihood of success with either. Reischauer was just too old by then and he didn`t have any business background. If he had been able to hold it together, he probably would have made tenure and eked out a reasonable financial existence.

I believe he was on meds for maybe a year to a year and a half, but I don`t know what they were. He went on them following a lame suicide attempt – taking enough of various pills to make it real for the psychiatric doctors. I visited him in the mental hospital at the time and he later came to visit after we had moved away when he was interviewing, and it was at that time I noticed the very strong smell of the meds. Some months later his wife called with the bad news.

I don`t know if he tried to get off of the meds - or even if maybe doing so led to his eventual suicide success. But when he visited, he had a large volume of various pills, so was still on them at that time.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Details of a new idea are mostly irrelevant, eg: 66 days or 21 days (which I think is the current standard) isn't the issue but rather should there be one at all? And that is just another way of framing how much of what kind of social services should be used instead of the criminal justice system. On THAT relevant question...I think we need less law and more mental health services. ........DETAILS: to be set.

Being alone in a padded cell while being evaluated is not solitary confinement: unless you {!#%@} in public yourself.
I am sure that the medical profession does their best, and in some cases maybe does need to more actively (maybe even be required to) step forward and alert social services. But I wouldn`t replace social services and the court system with doctors and give them a stronger say in who should be committed. Theirs is not a science, but rather an art, IMO - particularly when it comes to psychosis.

Whether that padded cell is an isolation chamber, depends upon how long it is being used and why. Enter on a Friday evening and not see a doctor or be let out, or be able to contact anyone until Monday morning (yes, I know of such a case, a common drunk), makes it an isolation chamber in my book. For a fully functioning sane person it would be torture, and for a psychotic person maybe worse.

BTW - I have absolutely no idea what you meant by shitting in public - a rather common occurrence in certain environments - ref the rail, ref the rope in a river, ref the now removed(?) public toilets in China.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:34 am

Ha, ha......TJ...you are talking on both sides of the issue and not dealing with the issue.

IN CONTEXT: Doctors are just part of the process in providing the required mental health services that are lacking/provided by Criminal Justice System today.........at least in the USA.... especially post Regan and his emptying of the Psyche Hospitals. I hope you are just being "too literal" and as first commented, you are dithering on the details while avoiding the main point. aka: I agree, Docs should not substitute for social services (AND) the police. No one said they should....it wasn't the point.

What difference does "it" being an art or a science make? Whatever "it" is: more of it is needed. Again: thats the point.

"Whether that padded cell is an isolation chamber, depends upon how long it is being used and why" ===>exactly, so lets use it correctly.

"For a fully functioning sane person it would be torture" ==>totally irrelevant
"...., and for a psychotic person maybe worse...." whaaa? You have lost the whole need for intervening social services: aka: people who are a danger to themselves or others with the real althernative being confronted and arrest by cops and put into a jail environment to be harassed by their fellow inmates.

Shitting in public: an activity you recommend over the torture of being in isolation. A joke.

You do dither so.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:39 am

Fack off Bobbo. Remember the OP? I don`t think doctors should be able to have people locked up and medicated against their will - you apparently do.
... doctors need to be able to detain people and forcibly medicate without fear of being sued
I only know of four people who were `treated` by psychiatrists or doctors who prescribed psychotic meds, and none of them turned out well. Art, not science.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:29 am

TJ--ok--I see you are going for the OP rather than my own take off from it. Lets review it then:

doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power I take "doctors/psychiatrists" as a Label for society does need more social services than we have now and that society/individuals are being hurt by our criminalization of mental health and other societal needs issues. I can see I went off on my own from there.


society is in a transition - with the population nearing 8 billion I don't think World Population has much to do with the issue.

doctors still have to worry about legal stuff . as they should and always will all set to the standard of care and specific laws applicable

doctors need to be able to detain people and forcibly medicate without fear of being sued . I agree--all as provided by the same law and professional standards that allows them to treat any other disease just like today.

there needs to be a time period that doctors can do what they know is right ; Yep..."Involuntary Commitment/Review" which I think allows for up to 21 days in most states in the USA. I see no reason for a longer period....perhaps even for a shorter one WITH again proper professional review. 99.99 of doc involuntary commitment comes from cops and social workers having people arrested and brought to County Psyche Services....not some roving group of Docs looking for crazy.

without worrying about being sued or arrested . say maybe 66 days . No. The "Worry" is that they will perform in a medically substandard way. Treating the mentally ill in this respect is no different than treating the common cold. Some people need rest and chicken soup, while others need to have chemical intervention leading to outpatient counselling, or locked up until functional.

anyone who is sane should be able to survive a doctors help longer than that . Yea....I don't know what this is referring to. BUT...I am refreshed that PIAS is posting as if there is not already a CONTEXT for more active involvement of docs to be integrated into. Not a free form Wild West. TJ--I take it your review/concerns are more towards PIAS's own disconnected in a vacuum review? Mine is simply expanding on the programs we already have.

Big difference. Kinda like sane from irrelevant. Choose your team colors.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ... doctors need to be able to detain people and forcibly medicate without fear of being sued . I agree--all as provided by the same law and professional standards that allows them to treat any other disease just like today.
Doctors today are bound by informed consent - and you as a patient, or potential patient, are free to decline treatment, seek second opinions, or take your business elsewhere. I have great respect for medical doctors, surgeons, nurses, etc. - not so much for psychiatrists and far less for one who would medicate without informed consent - forcefully.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:09 am

TJ--"involuntary commitment". Accepted in the USA. I strongly suspect "every" country has a similar process.

So...what do you do in Japan with a nude psychotic eating his own feces and walking his imaginary dog around in traffic...AGAINST THE LIGHTS?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ--"involuntary commitment". Accepted in the USA. I strongly suspect "every" country has a similar process.

So...what do you do in Japan with a nude psychotic eating his own feces and walking his imaginary dog around in traffic...AGAINST THE LIGHTS?
This is a bit dated, but provides a history and recent overview of commitment in Japan – more voluntary these days than involuntary.

But for your scenario – involuntary incarceration is probably not going to happen. No danger to self or others. Being naked in a public place is illegal, but the police are more likely to move the person to the sidewalk, give him a blanket or clothes, and identify/contact that persons guardian. The guardian may petition for him to be commited, but not the police, or a doctor.

(Note that it is a requirement for all licensed drivers to avoid hitting anyone/anything at all times, and no matter that this person is in an intersection and you have the light - hit him, and you will be arrested.)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:32 pm

Well TJ--congrats. You rejected the scenario but then went ahead and made a good faith effort to engage the issue. thanks for the link, I will take your summary of it as my guide: "more voluntary than involuntary" MEANING there is an involuntary commitment process just as I assume.

The difference in Japan vs USA is you evidently leave it to family members to initiate the process (what about orphaned psychotics?) rather than people actually trained and expert in the field? Sounds very silly to me......but .... every society to its own.

Following the OP....I think Japan could greatly benefit from having actually informed, trained, concerned, objective mental health professionals involved in getting those that need it the help they are going without....and so could the USA all for the same reasons.

So many pros and cons to all we do. Have an active commitment program and you get horror stories about people being committed simply because they were deaf and never educated by their loving families. OTOH...let the mentally ill go unrestrained and we get mass shootings (OK....in the USA). In a society more nuturing and homogenous that has no guns, I can see a lessened need for involuntary commitment........ha, ha.......the violence of a gun cultured society being met with the violence of involuntary commitment?===>yes.

I agree with you for the most part......in a less violent society, the government can be less violent itself. But...if you believe in the Wild West Ethos....its the better policy to have a more violent mental health system as the check valve/balance. Course...even pre-Regan the mental health services were underfunded and under staffed. This permits for lack of attention more than violence.

I will fault you for avoiding the issue by opining that someone nuts wandering around in traffic is not a danger to themselves or others. Silly to deny it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:22 am

TJrandom wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:...

why did he get into meds and shrinks ?
how long and what meds ?
did he try to quit ?
From the best I could determine (personal interaction with him) he was a manic depressive – super elated in one meeting, but severely depressed in the next. He was facing a tenure deadline and had 4 and a half kids. At one time he was trying to get Edwin Reischauer (a famous US ambassador to Japan, and author) to a symposium he was trying to set up, and at another time wanting to get out of the university system and into business – but without a high likelihood of success with either. Reischauer was just too old by then and he didn`t have any business background. If he had been able to hold it together, he probably would have made tenure and eked out a reasonable financial existence.

I believe he was on meds for maybe a year to a year and a half, but I don`t know what they were. He went on them following a lame suicide attempt – taking enough of various pills to make it real for the psychiatric doctors. I visited him in the mental hospital at the time and he later came to visit after we had moved away when he was interviewing, and it was at that time I noticed the very strong smell of the meds. Some months later his wife called with the bad news.

I don`t know if he tried to get off of the meds - or even if maybe doing so led to his eventual suicide success. But when he visited, he had a large volume of various pills, so was still on them at that time.

suicide attempt is enough for shrinks to pressure him to take meds .
only way they would give him an ok to go back to work.

amazing that shrinks claim to have a lot of insight ,
but totally ignore their culpability in the deaths of the people they pressure to take drugs .
" shrinks ability to endure the suffering of their victims is limitless "

tying back to my original rant - it looks like shrinks don't play any favorites .
only thing holding them back is the legal system - they still need an excuse .
the one they tried on me was a form about how I felt .
just check the convenient boxes and sign at the bottom , and your ass is injected

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:...... suicide attempt is enough for shrinks to pressure him to take meds .
only way they would give him an ok to go back to work......
Seems about right. In a vacuum....how many suicide attempts are the result of chemical imbalances directly, how many mental states leading to suicide can be ameliorated with drugs, and how many people who have attemtped suicide can be resolved without chemicals as having been determined to be caused by a temporary external condition? THEN: compare these numbers to the reality. I can easily assume drugs are over prescribed...... but not ALWAYS.

Reviewing docs can be sued for failure to treat if their patients later commit suicide or kill others. ..... what would anybody do put in such a situation?

One might consider a law making Psych Docs immune from lawsuit when they fail to provide medication/isolation AND the patient demands it? You know: put the patients in charge of medical practice given they all have 6 years post graduate work in the field.........

Its standard of care, human frailties, legal system....and a host more elements. Pros and Cons to any system you choose.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:...... suicide attempt is enough for shrinks to pressure him to take meds .
only way they would give him an ok to go back to work......
Seems about right. In a vacuum....how many suicide attempts are the result of chemical imbalances directly, how many mental states leading to suicide can be ameliorated with drugs, and how many people who have attemtped suicide can be resolved without chemicals as having been determined to be caused by a temporary external condition? THEN: compare these numbers to the reality. I can easily assume drugs are over prescribed...... but not ALWAYS.

Reviewing docs can be sued for failure to treat if their patients later commit suicide or kill others. ..... what would anybody do put in such a situation?

One might consider a law making Psych Docs immune from lawsuit when they fail to provide medication/isolation AND the patient demands it? You know: put the patients in charge of medical practice given they all have 6 years post graduate work in the field.........

Its standard of care, human frailties, legal system....and a host more elements. Pros and Cons to any system you choose.

I guess your right :( shrinks have to protect themselves . that's why they refuse to see people who refuse to take meds .
same legal idea probably applies to all doctors . we have a health care system where doctors number one priority is not getting sued .
so I guess my OR original rant is close to todays reality . doctors medicate to protect themselves legally and to protect society ; helping the patient is not possible .
but since they cant force meds on the sickest people .......

an apple a day keeps the doctor away - why would anyone want to keep the doctor away ? well guess you explained why :-/

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:48 am

PIAS: its always a mix of things. You very much look to make Perfection the enemy of "the best we can do"? While perfection may be the abstract goal, its always good to touch base with what are the alternatives? Add up the Pros and Cons...and conclude its Big Pharma raping society: we all lose.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... I will fault you for avoiding the issue by opining that someone nuts wandering around in traffic is not a danger to themselves or others. Silly to deny it.
It took me quite a while to come up with a danger to themselves (not wanting to be silly of course) - for someone wondering around in traffic, naked no less. I suppose the risk to oneself might come from the remote possibility that they could get themselves incarcerated and forcefully medicated, frying their brain. Of course for danger to others - worst case, the image burned into the mind might cause one to turn to hard drink.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ--"involuntary commitment". Accepted in the USA. I strongly suspect "every" country has a similar process.

So...what do you do in Japan with a nude psychotic eating his own feces and walking his imaginary dog around in traffic...AGAINST THE LIGHTS?
doctors involved should be given legal immunity...
and the life history of the person should be documented and published .
abuse before 21 , abuse in school , abuse at work (common in japan ?)
- illegal drugs - medications
guessing that shrinks forced that person to take medications while he was still taking street drugs .
complete life history would make it obvious why the person went insane

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:09 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ--"involuntary commitment". Accepted in the USA. I strongly suspect "every" country has a similar process.

So...what do you do in Japan with a nude psychotic eating his own feces and walking his imaginary dog around in traffic...AGAINST THE LIGHTS?
doctors involved should be given legal immunity...
and the life history of the person should be documented and published .
abuse before 21 , abuse in school , abuse at work (common in japan ?)
- illegal drugs - medications
guessing that shrinks forced that person to take medications while he was still taking street drugs .
complete life history would make it obvious why the person went insane
Here doctors have blanket immunity and don`t require insurance to protect themselves. We don`t have an illegal drugs problem, or not so much - since police have a right to seize body fluid samples, and drug residuals in them is enough to convict and thus imprison.

A person in Bobbo`s scenario is likely just malnurished (eating {!#%@}) and an alcoholic.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:17 am

TJrandom wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ--"involuntary commitment". Accepted in the USA. I strongly suspect "every" country has a similar process.

So...what do you do in Japan with a nude psychotic eating his own feces and walking his imaginary dog around in traffic...AGAINST THE LIGHTS?
doctors involved should be given legal immunity...
and the life history of the person should be documented and published .
abuse before 21 , abuse in school , abuse at work (common in japan ?)
- illegal drugs - medications
guessing that shrinks forced that person to take medications while he was still taking street drugs .
complete life history would make it obvious why the person went insane
Here doctors have blanket immunity and don`t require insurance to protect themselves. We don`t have an illegal drugs problem, or not so much - since police have a right to seize body fluid samples, and drug residuals in them is enough to convict and thus imprison.

A person in Bobbo`s scenario is likely just malnurished (eating {!#%@}) and an alcoholic.
sounds like my op idea is close to reality in some parts of the world ?

just an alcoholic ? maybe -- but complete history still would be interesting .
speaker for the dead / speaker for the insane :-/

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:37 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote: ... sounds like my op idea is close to reality in some parts of the world ?
Doctors here do not get to incarcerate or medicate forcefully.

Police have great power - but they tend to not use it in such a case, but rather clothe and contact legal guardians. But if you do have illegal drugs in your system, you will be incarcerated in a facility to cold-turkey dry out. You will likely also face prison time, and then be released. Sin again and get caught, and the prison time will be longer.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:35 pm

TJ---since you've mentioned it twice, how does one get under legal guardianship except having their autonomy violated and given in trust to someone else? In USA afaik: this is done only on the review and recommendation of qualified psychiatrists. If this is the case, then the docs have already been involved. aka: not much of an argument that they "should not" be involved.

The danger I thought was obvious in hypothesizing a schizophrenic wandering around in traffic is said person getting hit by a car or worse innocents being hit by drivers avoiding same person. To say its against the law to hit such a person is.................another silly position.

Prison to dry out would be acceptable to me....no need for social services......but why not a mandatory referral so help avoid that recidivist? Or not. Just jail and release.....and eventually they will get hit in traffic.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ---since you've mentioned it twice, how does one get under legal guardianship except having their autonomy violated and given in trust to someone else? In USA afaik: this is done only on the review and recommendation of qualified psychiatrists. If this is the case, then the docs have already been involved. aka: not much of an argument that they "should not" be involved.

The danger I thought was obvious in hypothesizing a schizophrenic wandering around in traffic is said person getting hit by a car or worse innocents being hit by drivers avoiding same person. To say its against the law to hit such a person is.................another silly position.

Prison to dry out would be acceptable to me....no need for social services......but why not a mandatory referral so help avoid that recidivist? Or not. Just jail and release.....and eventually they will get hit in traffic.
People are born into a guardianship, they get married into (change) a guardianship, they willfully join a guardianship (nursing homes), some are legally transferred (imprisoned) into a guardianship, and a few are committed/hospitalized - with the agreement of a guardian, against their personal wishes, or maybe even without their knowledge (the truly insane and out of touch with all reality and not able to be home cared for, those who are senile, or maybe those with end state alzheimer’s). It is a legal process, mostly not a medical process.

Streets (local and even prefecture and national highways), with the exception of expressways – are for public use – and bi-peds have top priority, followed by bicycles, then motored vehicles. Most roads have no pedestrian pathways. Of course most humans walk to the side and not down the middle of the street as a matter of self-preservation. But that doesn`t change the legal pecking order for usage priority and responsibility for any accidents. Hit that naked drunk in the middle of an intersection when you have the green light, and you will serve jail time. Practical, and not silly at all. It is what you sign up for when you become a licensed driver and it has great power in limiting the numbers of drunks and others getting hit. Of course the drunk may well be dead and have thus finally been released from guardianship.

Again – for your scenario – the police will do their job (immediate protection and contact of the guardian). They do call for an ambulance if warranted, but psychiatrists are probably not going to get too involved with a naked street walking drunk nude who is talking to his imaginary pet pig. (Please don`t tell me you haven`t been there a few times.) The ER will release the person to his guardian.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:59 pm

Is the concept that different given the laws and culture? .... or is it you??
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Is the concept that different given the laws and culture? .... or is it you??
Which concept is that Bobbo? If you can elaborate on what you are asking, I will try to answer. But I will say - no it isn`t just me. We have a quite different set of society norms and laws than the US in regard to personal and guardian responsibility and of course policing and traffic management, and I don`t see either the thread title proposal or the full OP contents being accepted here, nor necessary or even helpful.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:21 am

TJ: well, knowing we both seek the truth of any given matter, AND I don't really know Japanese culture/laws/mores well enough to context/further detail them as you set them forth: isn't the fairly clear recognition that Docs don't need more legal power in Japan, but perhaps they do in the USA? Or do you consider yourself Anglo enough to opine on this culture as well?

Now, THAT aside, seems to me you are making an onrunning logical error: thinking that BECAUSE Japanese law puts the onus of traffic accidents on the drivers of cars rather than any pedestrian that that means any and all pedestrians can wonder about as they may without fear of accidents???? Can that possibly be true?==>that illogical deduction?

Does remind me of several outbursts from Dear Old Dad. Forget the details, but one evening he was pissed railing against the Japanese. Seems some Japanese car driver hit his car while he was shopping somewhere and the car was parked. HE GOT A TICKET from the Japanese police for being parked where he could be hit....or something like that. The family story was that in any traffic accident in Japan, the Big Noses got the ticket "for being there." Ha, ha......I dunno....seems to me a parked car might be as innocent as an incoherent schizophrenic? Not going to the right and wrong of anything.....just the eventualities and realities of pedestrian vs automobile REGARDLESS of the legal overlay.

Mind the gap.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:36 am

Of course - stronger measures by doctors in the US may indeed be warranted in some cases - and no, I do not know the current US situation well enough to offer a strong opinion - except that I would personally shudder to see myself or acquaintances committed and forcefully medicated for something as natural and mundane as walking an imaginary pet while nude and muttering obscenities. Firing an AK47 at the same time, sure.

Here - of course it would not be wise to play in traffic - and I did mention self-preservation as a reason for this. But doing so does not normally lead to an accident, given our traffic laws and driver attentiveness. I did a google search and found that we have less than half the rate of auto accident deaths as the US, but unfortunately I could not see it broken out by pedestrian/bicycle/auto as victim or hit by bicycle/auto. (Presumably there are no pedestrian-pedestrian deaths, few hit by bicycle, and most deaths would be auto-auto.)

Not knowing the parking situation your father had, I`ll not comment on that except to say that here, as in the US (and I know from personal experience) the ticket can go to the apparent victim.

Back on commitments and forceful medications - maybe the US has a lower suicide rate because of faster medical intervention. Just a thought.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:47 pm

TJrandom wrote: Back on commitments and forceful medications - maybe the US has a lower suicide rate because of faster medical intervention. Just a thought.
You had me all the way to the very end. Not bad? I also don't claim to know my own culture all that deep, just points and value systems of my own here and there....but...the BIG CRITICISM of the OP is the very opposite: there is NOT ENOUGH medical intervention in the USA...and less than we had 40 years ago when basically forced medication was done away with under the banner of individual autonomy.

Back to the wandernut in traffic. You'd really be comfortable leaving that person to his own fate? Seems a bit uncaring and fatalistic and a danger to the public to me. I'd hate to know of any car driver that swerved to avoid the nut case and ran into some other innocent and fully functioning citizen. ............. The image of Steven King getting side swiped by a drunk in a car while he was walking home came to me. I suppose for the wander nut you can make an accountants analysis re the cost/benefit of intervening in their case vs letting the criminal justice/social support system have its way but the harder cases will be those more to the functioning side of the continuum including for instance our drunk driver. It is NOT just a crime, but also an underlying psychiatric issue. If we really cared about our fellow citizens, we wouldn't let them wonder around in the streets, nor drink to excess either.

Where and how to draw the line to maximally protect society WHILE helping the individual is a fine challenge not appreciated by those who go full tilt in either other direction.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:13 pm

Nope - I never even hinted that I would be comfortable leaving a nutter to his own fate in traffic - the cops would be called and would deal with it as described. OR, the driver would stop and help him to the side of the road - which is exactly what I did some years ago for a happy drunk who was about to take a nap.

BTW - you don`t swerve to avoid so much - they don`t teach defensive driving here... but rather you drive cautiously enough to stop in time.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:02 pm

Nope - I never even hinted that I would be comfortable leaving a nutter to his own fate in traffic - the cops would be called and would deal with it as described. /// You mean you make it a criminal issue...

OR, the driver would stop and help him to the side of the road - which is exactly what I did some years ago for a happy drunk who was about to take a nap. /// This is still leaving the nutter to wander around and no real help at all.

BTW - you don`t swerve to avoid so much - they don`t teach defensive driving here... but rather you drive cautiously enough to stop in time. /// Brake on a freeway and you cause a 50 car smash up. Puts me in mind of driving in South America...as you note, a bit slower than USA/Germany/Turnpikes and the rule was simply to avoid whoever was in front of you as the people behind you were doing. Did seem to work fairly well......at lower speeds....at a requirement for CONSTANT full attention. ((I do wonder how cell phones are being used these days?---almost not at all is what I'm thinking.))

"People are born into guardianship..." //// not the same formal guardianship status we have in the USA. Same with your other examples. Lots of overlap but guardianship is different.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:52 pm

watch the trailer for the movie UNSANE . take away the super stalking and you have what happens all the time .
tricked into signing something .

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:23 am

"all" the time?==>No.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by TJrandom » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nope - I never even hinted that I would be comfortable leaving a nutter to his own fate in traffic - the cops would be called and would deal with it as described. /// You mean you make it a criminal issue...

OR, the driver would stop and help him to the side of the road - which is exactly what I did some years ago for a happy drunk who was about to take a nap. /// This is still leaving the nutter to wander around and no real help at all.

BTW - you don`t swerve to avoid so much - they don`t teach defensive driving here... but rather you drive cautiously enough to stop in time. /// Brake on a freeway and you cause a 50 car smash up. Puts me in mind of driving in South America...as you note, a bit slower than USA/Germany/Turnpikes and the rule was simply to avoid whoever was in front of you as the people behind you were doing. Did seem to work fairly well......at lower speeds....at a requirement for CONSTANT full attention. ((I do wonder how cell phones are being used these days?---almost not at all is what I'm thinking.))

"People are born into guardianship..." //// not the same formal guardianship status we have in the USA. Same with your other examples. Lots of overlap but guardianship is different.
Didn`t you get the message that the cops are there to help you? For the cops to help a person out of traffic is not a criminal issue - since it is not against the law to use the roadways - even for pedestrians. Contrary to the scenario assumption - there are very few nutters who need medical intervention, so helping them out of traffic IS real help and all that is needed. I suspect that keeping drugs under control, and family/society involvement go a long way toward limiting the numbers of these people here, and maybe this is a big difference with the US.

Even on freeways - braking does not cause smashups. Moderated speeds and constantly attentive drivers takes care of that - the minimum requirement of operating a vehicle and what you as a licensed driver and thus professional must legally do. Of course there are occasional fender benders - but NEVER because a pedestrian was present (nutter or not) since freeways are fenced off. Cellphone use while driving is of course illegal and will cost you your license.

I`m fairly sure that even in the US, parents are legally responsible for their children - so I see no difference in guardianship there. As registered head-of-household, I am legally responsible for my wife and would have been for elder parents (or any other people) if they had joined my family registry. As (if) I age, or if I become that nutter and no longer can take care of myself, my eldest son will likely become my guardian (with me exiting my family registry and joining his). So yes - there is a big difference in guardianship - here it is explicit, everyone has one, and it is kept in mind by all who are not criminals (who don`t care) so as to not negatively impose upon your guardian. Jump in front of a train to commit suicide, and your guardian will be financially responsible for the damage, cleanup, and delays to the passengers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14865
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: doctors / psychiatrists need more legal power

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:08 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Didn`t you get the message that the cops are there to help you?
Ha, ha....touche! Good demonstration of the cultural divide. "To protect and serve" you say? Hard to do here in the USA as we have ramped them up to a para-military force. We need more sushi...and helpful cops....but we aren't going to get it. ((We = USA))
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?