The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

A skeptical look at medical practices
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The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:55 am

Most everyone is interested in living a long, healthy, and happy life. The near universal demand has given rise to a copious supply of charlatans selling "answers."

Internet entrepreneur, conspiracy theorist, and natural health guru David Avocado Wolfe says that "superfoods" will extend your life. Freelee the Banana Girl espouses the benefits of a diet that's vegan, raw, and yes, full of bananas. Gwyneth Paltrow seems to stand behind whatever kooky quackery will make her the most money.


Always a subject that raises the blood pressure in lots of people, especially dieticians. Excellent short article from Real Clear Science that gives some seemingly sensible advice whilst also declaring that
They're also fallacious. There's little to no evidence to back most of their assertions
Science has not identified a "healthiest" diet.


http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/20 ... oring.html

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:15 am

And don't forget Kellogg, who invented Corn Flakes in the hopes that it would reduce masturbation: http://mentalfloss.com/article/27016/gu ... trange-man
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:21 am

Of course there is a healthiest diet....life style.... supporting technologies. Lots of them in fact: balanced, moderation, exercise.

I mean, let's not get stupid over what's obvious.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:00 am

Bobbo said:

I mean, let's not get stupid over what's obvious.


Isn't that what the article is saying?

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:01 am

I don't know.......I didn't read it. I just wrote what they all say unless they are some fad diet.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:12 am

You are a very aggravating person Bobbo. You jump in and make inane comments, yet you admit that you didn't even take time to read the article under debate. But then again, perhaps that is your aim - to be aggravating.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:54 am

Phoenix.....explain yourself.

You agreed my comment was an accurate summary of what the article said. How is that inane?
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't know.......I didn't read it. I just wrote what they all say unless they are some fad diet.


comment was an accurate summary of what the article said.


Where did I say that Bobbo? You said you didn't read the article. You just wrote what they all say.

Inane?? = "Senseless or silly, as in "Inane remarks""

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:02 am

I do suspect that there is more to diet than simply eating a balanced one – not that I buy into a short list of superfoods. But it would seem short sighted to me to ignore any of oily fish, nuts, soy, blue and other berries, etc. – just because you otherwise eat a balanced diet.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:48 am

Well TJ, according to the article, it would appear that there is no diet that has any scientific support to say that it is "The" diet. The article expressed, I think, 5 basic rules about healthy living and eating, and they make a lot of sense.

Oily fish, nuts & berries are a no brainer, soy I'm not so sure about. But if we eat a variety of healthy food (not processed) and do regular exercise, we can't go far wrong.

Trouble is, there are so many claims today about what healthy eating is. I think being a skeptic, especially these days, serves us well, in that we don't swallow (excuse the pun) every miracle food or diet that is presented to us as the only way to avoid obesity, heart problems, et al.

I am not a scientist, or a dietician, but I can read and understand research and studies. My understanding these days is that as a general population we tend to eat high levels of carbs, and high levels of fat. As I see it, we cannot have it both ways. See, excess carbs are stored in your body as fat. So if you also eat a lot of fat, it will not be used for energy, but will also be stored as fat, apart from the essential amounts needed by our bodies for various functions. Once stored in our cells, fat is very hard to remove.

My personal diet is one of low carbs and high fat. My carbs come from fruit and veg. I do not eat processed food, at least not on any regular basis. My fat intake is mainly saturated fat from meat, olive oil, some coconut oil, nuts & dairy. As a 71yo, I have just had my regular blood test, and I come up trumps. So I am pretty happy with that.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:07 am

I added soy because the prefecture here in Japan with the highest soy consumption has the lowest in blood pressure/heart attack issues. There are lots of studies on specific foods which detail their nutrition benefit, but don`t go as far as showing a longevity boost - and as no-brainers, I include them in my diet. Certaily agree on managing weight thru reduced carbs.

On soy- not my intent to push it, but rather just provide some info... and Hyogo prefecture.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Briff the Darg » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:05 pm

I had an elderly babysitter growing up who's diet was primarily cigarettes and hate. She lived to be 96!? I don't think there's any specific formula for longevity, it's just something you either have or don't. Which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with following the "secrets" in the article, but even if you don't... you could still outlive a good portion of your family and most of your friends.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:54 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Most everyone is interested in living a long, healthy, and happy life. The near universal demand has given rise to a copious supply of charlatans selling "answers."
Given the fact that we are all different, in that we have different medical conditions and issues, it seems illogical to presume there might be a "magic bullet" insofar as dietary needs are concerned. Certainly, we all require the basic building blocks, but food is so varied that it's possible to acquire those necessities in any number of ways.

I would say that any person in general good health who exercises on a regular basis can probably eat any food in moderation without deleterious effects. But even that person will begin to experience health issues if he overindulges too frequently in any type of food that affects homeostasis: fatty foods, foods high in sugar, alcohol, and so on.

Purely from an anecdotal viewpoint—I haven't researched the science on this—I've experienced a large improvement in my overall health by omitting all fast food and nearly all processed food, as well as making some healthy substitutions (like whole grain crackers with nuts and seeds in place of crackers like Ritz). The improvements I have noticed:
  • I experience fewer digestive issues, even with IBS.
  • I eat less, both in volume and calories, but get more nutrition.
  • My weight remains steadier, generally within 1-2 kg.
  • I experience fewer tension headaches, and no migraines.
  • My moods are more stable.
  • I have cravings for healthier foods instead of for junk food.
  • Food tastes better, and I dislike overly salty and overly sweet foods now.
  • My overall pain level (from fibromyalgia and chronic myofacial pain) has lessened.
Interestingly, I used to use Nutrasweet (aspartame) and "fat free" half-and-half in my coffee. My former partner nagged me endlessly about this "fake food." Solely so he would stop, I switched to table sugar (a scant teaspoon per mug) and dairy half-and-half (about a tablespoon per mug). Within two months, I lost 14 kg...making no other changes in my diet. (I'd already quit processed and fast foods.) The artificial sweetener and "fat free" creamer were making me overweight. Not surprising when you realize that the second ingredient by volume in the creamer is HFCS, and that scientific studies have linked aspartame with weight gain.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Poodle » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:08 pm

"Alcohol is okay in moderation (no more than 1-2 drinks a day), and might actually boost longevity."
There's the one that caught my eye. I think one or two bottles a day should be about right, as long as I drink it a litre at a time. Should make at least 99 years at that rate.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:33 am

Poodle wrote:"Alcohol is okay in moderation (no more than 1-2 drinks a day), and might actually boost longevity."
There's the one that caught my eye. I think one or two bottles a day should be about right, as long as I drink it a litre at a time. Should make at least 99 years at that rate.


:redwine: :yahoo:

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:52 am

Nikki Said:

Purely from an anecdotal viewpoint—I haven't researched the science on this—I've experienced a large improvement in my overall health by omitting all fast food and nearly all processed food, as well as making some healthy substitutions (like whole grain crackers with nuts and seeds in place of crackers like Ritz).


Well Nikki, you have done the most sensible thing anybody could do.

I eat a Low Carb, High Fat diet to a point where I use fat as energy rather than carbs. One of the greatest problems today is, that people eat too much carb and too much fat. You can't do both. If you eat more fat than your body needs, and you don't use the rest of the fat as energy fuel, you will naturally store that excess fat in your cells. Similarly, if you eat more carbs than you need for your daily energy, once again your body will store the excess carbs within your cells as FAT.

That, put simply, is how it works. The other benefit in fat is that it is nutrient dense and you will feel fuller longer than you would on a high carb diet. I only eat two meals a day, breakfast and dinner. Don't even think about lunch, just not hungry.

But my greatest gripe is the medical profession. Whilst they know that fat is not all that bad for you, and recent studies published in Lancet support that, they just can't let it go. But even more, the Dieticians are the ones that really get me. I call them pseudo medical people and they twist themselves in knots at times trying to argue that fat is no good for you.

My wife is diabetic and each month she gets a magazine from the Diabetics Association here in Australia. Like a lot of magazines the publish menus each issue recommended for diabetics. I am continually gobsmacked at the amount of carbs that each of the recipes contain. I mean, you don't give an alcoholic alcohol, so why give diabetics food containing high amounts of carbs. All carbs are converted in the body to glucose, so if you have insulin resistance, this will not help you condition. Your serum glucose level will go through the roof.

For the average healthy person, an occasional takeaway is fine. Processed food is never fine, IMHO, although there are times when I might partake in a little. We cook our meals with fresh food, not out of tins or packets. So Nikki, you made a great choice.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:17 am

Too much of anything is not good.

The saturated fat issue is interesting. There has been a lot of discussion recently based on a couple of studies suggesting that saturated fat might be OK despite earlier studies showing it caused serious cardiovascular disease. I came across an article recently that explains the discrepancy. Apparently eating habits have changed over the past few decades, and this includes a big drop in saturated fats. At the time of the original studies, saturated fats were frequently 30% to 60% of total calories. Those at the top end had far more cardio problems.

Today, though, saturated fats are closer to the 20% to 40% mark, and the top end does not cause the same level of problems. So recent studies have shown less harm from saturated fats, and a lot more problems from sugars.

No one should eat a lot of saturated fats. Instead, a balance of calories from different foods is indicated. Some saturated fat, some polyunsaturated, and some starch food (of a kind that includes fiber).

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Monster » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:25 pm

Briff the Darg wrote:I had an elderly babysitter growing up who's diet was primarily cigarettes and hate. She lived to be 96!? I don't think there's any specific formula for longevity, it's just something you either have or don't. Which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with following the "secrets" in the article, but even if you don't... you could still outlive a good portion of your family and most of your friends.

I agree with you.

If you read what the very old have said regarding their longevity, they all credit different foods or lifestyles for their advanced age. What does this tell you? It tells you that lifestyle might not be too relevant. Genetics are probably more relevant.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:48 pm

No, monster, it simply proves that most people do not know what they are talking about.

There are many factors associated with longevity. Genetics is very important. But many others are also important. Like not going away to war. Or killing yourself in an accident.

Healthy lifestyle is importent also. That includes exercise and good diet. But it also includes good stress management, proper rest and a good night's sleep. It includes good social relationships, a happy marriage, and good relationships with your children. Moderate alcohol intake. Not smoking. Not ingesting other toxins. Etc.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby TJrandom » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:43 pm

For the 98yo smoker who died after a life of drink - just think how much longer they would likely have lived had they not smoked or drunk to oblivian. Maybe they lived that long in spite of themselves and we only find it exceptional because we all have greater life limiting lifestyles. :roll:

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:58 am

Phoenix76 wrote:For the average healthy person, an occasional takeaway is fine. Processed food is never fine, IMHO, although there are times when I might partake in a little. We cook our meals with fresh food, not out of tins or packets. So Nikki, you made a great choice.
We rarely order takeaway. When we do, it's from local, family-owned places that cook everything from scratch. There's one place called Bueno y Sano that makes spectacular burritos that include their homemade rice, slow-cooked beans, cheese, lettuce, pico de gallo, and your choice of grilled chicken, slow-roasted pork, or slow-roasted beef. Sour cream and guacamole are available, and they have three homemade sauces: mild and hot red sauces and a tomatillo sauce that's so delicious that I do shots of it when no one's looking. :mrgreen: The burrito is so large that I get three meals out of it for $10usd.

Another is an actual Chinese restaurant. While they do offer Chinese-American food, they also have more traditional Chinese dishes. Their pan-fried dumplings are to die for. I honestly don't know how they keep them intact, the dough is so thin and they're so overstuffed. Unlike a lot of Chinese-American places, most of their dishes are loaded with veg, including water chestnuts, which I love.

But most of the time, we cook everything from scratch. Tonight, we had homemade pizza. Scratch-made dough, sauce made from tomatoes fresh from the garden, roasted red peppers, onions, freshly grated Asiago and Parmigiano Reggiano, a bit of leftover grilled chicken, and bufalo mozzarella. Six minutes on my pizza stone at 550ºF. Despite its thin crust, two pieces made a filling dinner.

Also, my daughter decided that, since she was going to the trouble of making pizza dough, she'd make a double batch. So we ended up with six pizzas' worth. The unused ones have been vacuum-sealed and frozen for future pizzas, each with a packet of fresh sauce.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:03 am

You know, perhaps this is a thread that could go on interminably as we all have different views. But the end results are similar.

Nikki talks about a takeaway that has beans and rice. Now that sounds very healthy, but there are thoughts that legumes eg: beans are not go for the human metabolism. And rice being a grain, is also not good for us. The argument, or precept here is that the human genome has not developed enough from caveman times to be able to properly digest and use grains or legumes.

I can't answer that, but it is certainly food for thought.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Austin Harper » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:23 pm

Phoenix, it sounds like you're promoting the "paleo" diet, which is nonsense.
Scientific American wrote:How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer:
Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked

We are not biologically identical to our Paleolithic predecessors, nor do we have access to the foods they ate. And deducing dietary guidelines from modern foraging societies is difficult because they vary so much by geography, season and opportunity
...
[Paleo dieters are] largely defined by what they do not do: most do not eat dairy or processed grains of any kind, because humans did not invent such foods until after the Paleolithic; peanuts, lentils, beans, peas and other legumes are off the menu, but nuts are okay; meat is consumed in large quantities, often cooked in animal fat of some kind; Paleo dieters sometimes eat fruit and often devour vegetables; and processed sugars are prohibited, but a little honey now and then is fine.

Almost equal numbers of advocates and critics seem to have gathered at the Paleo diet dinner table and both tribes have a few particularly vociferous members. Critiques of the Paleo diet range from the mild—Eh, it's certainly not the worst way to eat—to the acerbic: It is nonsensical and sometimes dangerously restrictive. Most recently, in her book Paleofantasy, evolutionary biologist Marlene Zuk of the University of California, Riverside, debunks what she identifies as myths central to the Paleo diet and the larger Paleo lifestyle movement.
...
(read more)
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:18 pm

Austin Harper wrote:the "paleo" diet, which is nonsense.
One of my acquaintances tried to convince me of the benefits of the Paleo Diet, whereupon I replied with some of the exact information in this article. Including:
deducing dietary guidelines from modern foraging societies is difficult because they vary so much by geography, season and opportunity
I also noted she was taking this diet out of context when applying it to herself. Was she scavenging berries, seeds, nuts, and tubers? No, she was buying them at the market. So she wasn't mimicking the Paleo life, then, was she? I suggested that, if she truly wanted to reap the benefits of Paleo man, she needed to gather her own food, learn to fish and hunt, and scavenge meat from road kill. This would provide her with a similar level of exercise. As you can imagine, this went over like a lead balloon.

I further noted that, just as human genetics had changed over time, the genetics of flora and fauna had too, so it was impossible for her to eat a true Paleo diet. Those foods were no longer available. It's possible to see these changes in food since photography has existed. We don't even recognize the predecessors of the food we eat today.

I'll stand by those black beans. A 92 gram serving (half a cup) contains 20 g of protein, 15 g of dietary fiber, and 1380 mg of potassium, as well as being high in iron and magnesium. The rice might not be as great, having only 2 g of protein per 80 gram serving (also half a cup), and only half a gram of dietary fiber, but it is low in both calories and fat. Given that the rice is combined in my burrito with the black beans, lean meat, aged cheese, and a ton of veg (including both allium and chile), I think it can be excused for not being a nutritional powerhouse in this context. :mrgreen: Not to mention, since I'm getting three meals out of one burrito, I'm eating less than 27 grams of rice per meal. :beee:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:20 pm

Austin Harper wrote:

Phoenix, it sounds like you're promoting the "paleo" diet, which is nonsense


Well Austin, perhaps you should re-read my post. I clearly said
but there are thoughts that
. I also said
The argument, or precept here is
, and I finished by saying
I can't answer that, but it is certainly food for thought.


Firstly, the Paleo Diet does not include dairy. Now I've just chowed down on a large chunk of cheddar cheese which would make many Paleo followers upchuck.

I thought we were having a discussion/debate about the "Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health". Now to do that efficiently, one must discuss different thoughts and ideas. Bloody boring else wise. The trouble as I see it is that there are so many "solutions" to good health and diet going around, it's a wonder we don't all just take off down to Macca's and forget about "healthy". And my final sentence was supposed to be a bit of a pun, but it obviously fell flat. Nevermind.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Nikki Wrote:

I further noted that, just as human genetics had changed over time, the genetics of flora and fauna had too, so it was impossible for her to eat a true Paleo diet. Those foods were no longer available. It's possible to see these changes in food since photography has existed. We don't even recognize the predecessors of the food we eat today.


First up Nikki, I am NOT promoting the Paleo Diet per se. Clearly we cannot replicate what our caveman predecessors ate. As you say, those foods are no longer available. I believe that what the proponents of this diet are saying is, that we should be eating a diet which resembles, as closely as possible, what our predecessors ate.

I believe that a lot of the thought behind Paleo comes from the prevalence of lactose intolerance, gluten intolerance or celiac, and so we have this idea of no dairy, no grain or flour derived from grain.

And just to clear the air, my diet is one of Low Carb, High Fat. Now most people use carbs for energy, but not all that long ago, we used fat as energy. That is what I do. I'm 71yo and very fit. I have regular medical checkups, as one should do at my age, and I can beat people half my age in terms of fitness.

My cholesterol might be higher than most doctors think it should be, but not my doctor. Actually, it is held that people my age benefit from a higher cholesterol level than younger people. My blood pressure is great, all my serum levels are normal, and even my physical fitness is excellent.

So I am very happy with where I'm at with my dietary regime, and I guarantee that I could hold my own against many who are much younger than me.

But the whole point of this thread is to discuss all these ideas on optimum health that are put forward almost daily. I believe that people are being mislead in the name of making money. Ahh the skeptic's head arises.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:24 pm

@Nikki... I have eaten road kill and would do so again if I could get my wife to agree - but sadly. There was a time when road kill and hunting wild game fed me, since money was scarce and the beef on the hoof was there to pay end of year taxes, so needed to be sold. I have never had to resort to lizards, snakes, beetles, grubs, ants, etc. for sustenance - so have been fortunate, though I have tried all of these. But a true Paleo-er or survivalist, would need to be armed or eat what they could chase down or find. (Just in case you get captured by another Paleo-er, a few more examples there. :? )

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:06 pm

There is one thing we can take from the Paleo diet, and that is variation. Actually, there are many different Paleo diets, depending on which part of the world and which era and culture we are talking about. But one thing they all had in common is that they tended to involve consuming lots and lots of different things. Whatever they could lay their hands on, in fact.

In the modern world, we can adopt this policy. The British National Health has a recommendation to eat no fewer than ten different fruits and vegetables each day. I do this. I have a morning platter of raw fruits, and an afternoon platter of salad vegetables. Plus a couple of cooked vegetables with my evening meal.

In spite of the fact that nutritional advice tends to change over time, this remains the same. A wide variety of fruit and vegetables.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:11 am

And for the true forager who has a preference for finding chocolate brownies growing in the wild:

https://www.fitnessmagazine.com/recipes/desserts/paleo-desserts/

Top 10 Delicious Paleo Desserts

Image

Perhaps what the original hunter gatherer did was find some cacao beans and some bits of sugar cane and some wild wheat stalks and some eggs and mixed them all in his mouth and called it dessert.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:21 am

At least that meets the variation requirement.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:23 pm

There is some evidence (tenuous, I admit) that the impetus for the cultivation of grains was not for food, but for fermenting. When this started is lost to antiquity, but I have convinced myself, after due consideration of all the available evidence, that beer was a part of the historical paleo diet.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:12 pm

As a preservative. :-P
.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:18 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:As a preservative. :-P

Yep. The origin of pickled liver.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:48 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:First up Nikki, I am NOT promoting the Paleo Diet per se. Clearly we cannot replicate what our caveman predecessors ate. As you say, those foods are no longer available. I believe that what the proponents of this diet are saying is, that we should be eating a diet which resembles, as closely as possible, what our predecessors ate.
I apologize if I implied that you were, Phoenix. I do recall you saying you included dairy in your diet, which the Paleo diet prohibits. Generally, I was arguing against the entire hypothesis behind the Paleo diet itself. We are not our ancestors; our genetics and lifestyle are completely different. Eating the way they ate will not provide us with their health. We might approximate it if we also exercised as rigorously as they did, rid our lives of the stress of modern life, and had as clean a planet as they did. But to have their health profile, we would have to be them. And, frankly, I like still having teeth at the age of 52...not to mention still being alive at the age of 52. :mrgreen:

Phoenix76 wrote:I believe that a lot of the thought behind Paleo comes from the prevalence of lactose intolerance, gluten intolerance or celiac, and so we have this idea of no dairy, no grain or flour derived from grain.
Honestly, a lot of that is BS. Unless you actually have Celiac, are allergic to gluten, or have a metabolic disorder involving gluten, you don't have "gluten intolerance." It's a fad diet propped up by the food industry, since they can charge higher prices for gluten-free foods. I have a friend with Celiac, and have put myself through the wringer to cook dinner for her, sanitizing every kitchen tool and dish I planned to use (including my cutting board), reading every single label (even consulting with her for terms I should look for), and taking extreme care to avoid any cross-contamination. Because even a small amount of gluten would put her in the ER, sick as a dog...and a large amount would kill her.

Phoenix76 wrote:And just to clear the air, my diet is one of Low Carb, High Fat. Now most people use carbs for energy, but not all that long ago, we used fat as energy. That is what I do. I'm 71yo and very fit. I have regular medical checkups, as one should do at my age, and I can beat people half my age in terms of fitness.
My stats are always perfect, including blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar and triglycerides, heart rate, lipids, etc. Even my ECG and blood oxygen were spot on. My doc's jaw actually dropped at those last two, saying, "They're not only perfect for your age; they're perfect." Mostly, I don't take credit for it, except for eating properly. My medical conditions prevent all but the most gentle of exercise (because of a combination of lactic acid overproduction and poor oxygen transport to the muscles). So I must have good genes. (Also, I think having been a singer for 35 years has helped...I know how to breathe and really fill my lungs.)

Phoenix76 wrote:But the whole point of this thread is to discuss all these ideas on optimum health that are put forward almost daily. I believe that people are being mislead in the name of making money. Ahh the skeptic's head arises.
I think that looking at the nutritional quality of food is important. It's commonly said that red meat is "bad for you," but red meat contains high levels of L-carnitine, a building block for proteins crucial to muscle function and a number of other things. It's also packed with protein, iron, vitamins C and B-12, and selenium, among other nutrients. This is not to say you should eat a 12-ounce steak every day, but even a 4-ounce serving packs a nutritional punch.
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:12 pm

TJrandom wrote:@Nikki... I have eaten road kill and would do so again if I could get my wife to agree - but sadly. There was a time when road kill and hunting wild game fed me, since money was scarce and the beef on the hoof was there to pay end of year taxes, so needed to be sold. I have never had to resort to lizards, snakes, beetles, grubs, ants, etc. for sustenance - so have been fortunate, though I have tried all of these. But a true Paleo-er or survivalist, would need to be armed or eat what they could chase down or find. (Just in case you get captured by another Paleo-er, a few more examples there. :? )
I've not eaten road kill, but have raised (and slaughtered and butchered) animals for food and helped butcher what my former partner brought back from his hunting trips. Meat doesn't come from the market. I am familiar with those lean times, though, when meals were, how shall I put this, "imaginative?" ;)

I've never refused tasting wild game of any type. Venison is delicious (better when there hasn't been a drought). Black bear is one of my favorites. Wild turkey is an entirely different meat from domesticated turkey with a much richer flavor. (Not to mention domesticated turkeys are, literally, the stupidest animals on Earth. If you move their food, you'd better show them where you put it, or they'll starve. :roll: And they're a million times smellier than pigs.) Moose is excellent. All of which reminds me not to forget to attend a game dinner this year. :)

I don't recommend eating carnivores, based on having tried mountain lion that a friend brought back from a hunting trip to (I think) Montana. Yuck. "Gamey" doesn't begin to describe it. I don't think I can describe it. Maybe you could make sausage from it...with lots of onions, garlic, ginger root, and other flavorings. Maybe. I hate wasting food, so that's what I'd try.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:14 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:There is some evidence (tenuous, I admit) that the impetus for the cultivation of grains was not for food, but for fermenting. When this started is lost to antiquity, but I have convinced myself, after due consideration of all the available evidence, that beer was a part of the historical paleo diet.

https://youtu.be/CONa4b9errw
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:28 pm

There is also evidence that hunter gatherers before agriculture used to gather wild wheat and eat it. Grains are probably a food used by humans since they were pre-humans.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:21 am

Lance said:

There is also evidence that hunter gatherers before agriculture used to gather wild wheat and eat it. Grains are probably a food used by humans since they were pre-humans.


Quite possible Lance. I think the proponents of Paleo take some licence when they declare what our hunter/gatherer predecessors ate. Obviously meat was probably high on the agenda but maybe not always available. It is accepted that they gathered seeds and seasonal fruits, so why not wild wheat.

OlegTheBatty wrote:

There is some evidence (tenuous, I admit) that the impetus for the cultivation of grains was not for food, but for fermenting. When this started is lost to antiquity, but I have convinced myself, after due consideration of all the available evidence, that beer was a part of the historical paleo diet.


Now Oleg, you are a man much after my own heart :D . And it is not such a wild notion. We know of monkeys (I think) that eat fermenting fruit and fall out of trees drunk, so why wouldn't our forebears try the same thing. Not sure about using grain as such but alcohol? For sure.

Nikki said:

I've never refused tasting wild game of any type
.

Spot on Nikki. We don't have the range of wild game here in Oz, but certainly Kangaroo, Water Buffalo, Crocodile (very yummy), Rabbits, Emu, haven't gone for snake as yet but would probably try it.

We are not our ancestors; our genetics and lifestyle are completely different. Eating the way they ate will not provide us with their health.


Quite right Nikki. But one of the Paleo arguments against grain and dairy is that our genetics have not changed sufficiently for our bodies to properly use these foods. Another food group they recommend against are legumes, again suggesting our bodies don't react too kindly to them.

Unless you actually have Celiac, are allergic to gluten, or have a metabolic disorder involving gluten, you don't have "gluten intolerance."


Again quite correct. But again one of the arguments for avoiding grains and dairy. With dairy, one of their arguments is that of all the animal world, humans are the only ones that drink milk after we are weaned. Well unless I can get raw cow's milk, I drink very little of it these days. But when it comes to cheese, yoghurt, cream, I just love them.

It's commonly said that red meat is "bad for you,"


Another typical lie manifested by the medical and pharma industries and all based on very dubious studies done in the past. Actually red meat is the best source of digestible iron for humans. Our bodies find it very easy to use as compared to vegan alternatives. And the argument about the cholesterol in meat is the greatest lie of all times. Of course it has cholesterol, so do eggs - the greatest little vitamin pill available to us. See, dietary cholesterol has little or no effect on our serum cholesterol. I've had a stand up argument with a Doctor on this issue, and the Doctor was wrong. She obviously was not keeping up on her journals but just listening to vested interests hoping for her to push more of their poisonous drugs.

Pretty obvious that food and nutrition is one of my pet subjects, and I just love to get into debates, and arguments, on the issue. Truth is, very few of the studies done over the years can show much more than association, and quite obliquely some of them. Few have been able to show causation. One study done, I think, by Ancel Keys, was called the Seven Nations Study. Trouble was, he studied around 24 different nations and selected the seven that most closely followed his preconceived ideas. The Mediteranean Diet is another that was a pack of BS. This study was done in the 1950's, still not long after WW11, and the countries were still very short of meat supplies. That should have made the study invalid straight up, but it was published to support a very low meat diet, high in fruit and vegetables etc (Carbs).

Enough of my rantings.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:27 pm

There is an old adage, Phoenix, moderation in all things. I suspect this applies to meat also. You are correct that red meat is the best source of iron, but there is some evidence that too much iron is bad for you. Certainly blood donors (I am one) statistically live longer and are healthier than non blood donors. That may be due to periodically shedding some of that excess iron. Of course, too little iron is probably worse.

I have a speculation here. Perhaps during human evolution, loss of blood from occasional injury has created excess hemoglobin manufacture as an adaptation. If we do not occasionally shed blood, the excess may not be healthy. Admittedly, I have no evidence, which is why I call it a speculation.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:42 pm

Best source of iron: cook in cast iron.

Paleo "life style": diet plus exercise. We would all benefit from it.........but lose our jobs in the exercise thereof.

Time moves on. Hmmm...I wanted to respond to that post, I think by Nikki regarding the import of History. Totally misunderstood.......... as most things are.

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