Coconut BAD!

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Lance Kennedy
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Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:52 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40300145

Coconut oil is saturated fats, and is as unhealthy as lard or butter.. The idea that coconut oil is good for you is simply wrong!

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:55 am

Good. I'll alert my niece immediately. I think she drinks the damn stuff.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:45 am

:scratch: Not all saturated fat is horribly bad. If it was, we might have never had the chance to worry about such stuff. :lol:
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:59 am

Like your eggs, scrambled one. A little, good. Too much, not so good.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:38 am

I only eat coconuts if they're stuffed with steak and deep-fried in bacon fat, topped with a cup of grated cheese and an ounce of butter.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:01 am

I'm a terrible offender. I make lots of curries using a slow cooker and coconut milk is a major ingredient in many dishes. Last night was "Slow cooked Trivandrum Chicken and coconut milk curry" :D

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:15 am

Major Malfunction wrote:I only eat coconuts if they're stuffed with steak and deep-fried in bacon fat, topped with a cup of grated cheese and an ounce of butter.

So just leave out the coconut. :wgrin:
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:18 am

I feel healthier just thinking about it! Thanks LunaNik!
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:43 am

:lol:
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:01 am

As a baker...I use lard. Most of these "diet"/health claims have evidence/advocates on all sides of the issue. Hydrogenated store bought lard for instance is almost a different substance from a pig rendered natural fat. 100 years ago, rather than be a light white meat alternative to chicken, hogs were raised for the main purpose of rendering their fat..back fat specifically if I Recall Correctly. Different from belly fat.

I assume you wouldn't be surprised how much disinformation is put out there by Big Food?
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Flash » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:18 am

Why is everybody drinking the coconut water now? :unsure:
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:32 am

Flash wrote:Why is everybody drinking the coconut water now? :unsure:

Its supposed to be "refreshing" with electrolytes. But its just Big Food making a profit off of what used to be thrown away. I've been meaning to try it for whatever taste it might have.... assuming none... and returning to my herbal tea: equal amounts of green and black tea and hibiscus. Delicious and cheap....and healthy. I use it instead of water for all cooking needs.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:34 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:hogs were raised for the main purpose of rendering their fat..back fat specifically if I Recall Correctly. Different from belly fat.

Are you sure it's not the opposite? I'd like to know why. Taste, perhaps?

From my old biology learnings; Back fat, or brown adipose tissue, are cells mostly around the neck and shoulders, and have an unlinked metabolic chain. They can burn ATP just for the sake of producing heat, without any useful molecular products. They start to activate about the same time you start shivering. They don't tend to store large amounts of lipids, and don't tend to reproduce as much as the white/yellow adipose tissue when there's an abundance of food.

The white fat cells will fill-up their vesicles with stored lipid until they're almost ready to burst, and then they'll divide into new cells, taking half the fat each. That's why it's so hard to get trim again if you've been fat. You've got a whole bunch more cells that don't want to give up their reserves, except in the most dire situation.

But if you want to farm an animal to produce quantity of lipids, going for the belly fat would seem to be the most efficient.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:36 am

There are a bunch of things that are bad for us in quantity.
Sugars.
Salt.
Starch
Saturated fat.
Trans fat.

They are all OK in small amounts, including lard. But if you want to make old bones, you should keep the consumption down.
The coconut thing is not surprising, since the fat is saturated. Palm oil is another vegetable oil that is mostly saturated. But for some weird reason, a myth grew up around coconut oil, suggesting it was very healthy. Those myths need to be punctured.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:51 am

There are myths for everything you listed.

The salt one started with Davinci a thousand years ago when he noticed putting bits of dead people in a high saline solution caused the tissue to harden. No {!#%@}. It's called pickling. And if your blood is four times as salty as the sea, I can understand why you might have a cardiac arrest. But for the most part, our kidneys do a very good job of filtering any excess sodium chloride. You may feel a little thirsty after a salty meal.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:59 am

MM: thanks. That was a refreshing read in itself. My main inhibition to "diet" more specifically calorie restriction is my body IMMEDIATELY switches metabolism. I {!#%@} less but mainly I get cold. fingers, toes, butt, ears become frigid. I am an advanced Darwinian machine for when times are hard. Looks like I need some of that brown fat?
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:00 am

I like fats and taste and am not scared of what comes naturally with or from real food. Balanced eating prevents overindulging in less desirable components. Staying away from manufactured stuff does the same...
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:09 am

"Avoid white food." Remarkably accurate..... except for egg whites.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:34 am

Onions and garlic are white food and very healthy.

I dislike silly rules like 'avoid white foods.' We can be smarter than that and govern our behaviour according to knowing WHY some things are good or bad.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:39 am

Bobbo is talking about moldy food. :lol:



Yummy moldy food.

Spoiler:
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:07 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Onions and garlic are white food and very healthy.

I dislike silly rules like 'avoid white foods.' We can be smarter than that and govern our behaviour according to knowing WHY some things are good or bad.

State your rule in three words or less.

think guideline, not rule.

So rigid you are.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:09 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Bobbo is talking about moldy food. :lol:



Yummy moldy food.

Spoiler:
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CHEESE!!!!!!!

Glorious Cheese. Gets real close to throwing the rule guideline out.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:20 am

Now sugars and starch.

The only sugar indigestible by humans is cellulose. Laymen call it "fibre". It keeps the {!#%@} flowing because it's indigestible, it just goes straight through, like corn kernels. It's the stuff plants use to make their cellular walls. Wood, basically.

We use herbivorous animals, with their multiple stomachs and bacterial symbionts, to turn it into things we can digest. Amino acids, lipids, and sugars.

Starch is a bunch of linked sugars, which is how plants often store energy. Glucose, in fact. And glucose is the basic molecular unit of sugar our entire metabolism runs on. Other sugars are converted to glucose and delivered to cells, which use it to produce ATP, to do whatever they do.

Saying sugar is bad is really stupid, since we're all glucose-fuelled funny cars.

And our livers store about a day's worth of glucose in the form of glycogen.

So... What's "healthier"? Starch, glucose, or glycogen?

Glucose requires absolutely zero metabolic cost. It goes straight into the bloodstream.

The real problem with too much sugar, not any particular kind, is that it will wear-out your pancreas. So it can't produce enough insulin any more. Much like a machine, a cell only has so many "revs", and if you rev it too fast, it breaks eventually.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:36 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:There are a bunch of things that are bad for us in quantity.
Sugars.
Salt.
Starch
Saturated fat.

Water.

Trans fat.

Trans fats are bad in any amounts. There is no OK amount of trans fats.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:54 pm

MM

All about definition.
'Sugar' is normally defined as monosaccharide or disaccharide. Starch and cellulose are not normally defined as 'Sugar'.

Gord.

Almost correct. According to the first law of toxicology, nothing is toxic in a low enough dose. That is also true of trans fats. However, you are right in that smaller amounts of trans fats become harmful than other fats.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Paracelsus is usually considered to be the father of toxicology, having formulated the first law, which states that the dose makes the poison.

Interesting how you cast all things poisonous as not.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:59 pm

Not what I said, B obbo.
Read it again.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Lance: what is the first law of toxicology?
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:43 pm

The first law of toxicology is that the dose makes the poison. This means two things.
1. Nothing is toxic if the dose is low enough.
2. Everything is toxic if the dose is high enough.

Determining toxicity is all about determining what dose makes something toxic.

Clear ENOUGH?

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:45 pm

Exactly so. Now....take the actual first law and subtract what you posted it was, and what you got is what I said: Your Bias.

((Edit: I phrased the formula via the most common representation, but I think to make sense it should say "take the actual first law, COMPARE IT TO what you posted, and that demonstrates your Bias.))
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:07 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Bobbo is talking about moldy food. :lol:



Yummy moldy food.

Spoiler:
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Any dietary guideline that says cheese is bad is automatically wrong in my book.*

*As an American, I feel obligated to point out that "cheese" does not include anything labeled "cheese food product."
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:46 am

To Bobbo

My bias, as you put it, is in favor of good science. I told you before, that most of adult life, I worked as an industrial chemist. Since I dealt with toxic materials quite a lot, I had to learn basic toxicology. So on that topic, I do actually know what I am talking about.

I also explained to you about the NOAEL (no observable adverse effect limit) which is the basis for legal limits to exposure. Knowing how much of a potentially harmful substance you need to be exposed to, in order to see harm, is vitally important. Far more so than silly government legal limits.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:33 am

There is actually less and less clear evidence that saturated fats are bad at all - unsaturated ones might be better, but only if stored properly.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:55 am

Not quite true, EM.

In small quantities, they are harmless. But consumed in excessive amounts, they contribute to cardiovascular disease.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:09 am

That's the traditional opinion, sure, but it is being undermined by new studies.

https://www.medicalnewsbulletin.com/sat ... t-disease/

The problem is rather a lack of exercise and eating mostly highly processed foods, according to the study. They could find no actual link between saturated fats and cardio-vascular diseases.

It might well be that more research will show a link between heart disease and saturated fats, but the case is not as clear as the nutritional and medical community have assume until now.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Not quite true, EM.

In small quantities, they are harmless. But consumed in excessive amounts, they contribute to cardiovascular disease.

So you wouldn't try my newly invented dish? It's a breaded stick of butter wrapped in several slices of bacon, then deep-fried, served with mornay sauce. Over a medium-rare ribeye. :wgrin:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:27 am

ElectricMonk wrote:That's the traditional opinion, sure, but it is being undermined by new studies.

https://www.medicalnewsbulletin.com/sat ... t-disease/

The problem is rather a lack of exercise and eating mostly highly processed foods, according to the study. They could find no actual link between saturated fats and cardio-vascular diseases.

It might well be that more research will show a link between heart disease and saturated fats, but the case is not as clear as the nutritional and medical community have assume until now.

I gave up fast food and nearly all processed food about ten years ago. But I eat cheese like a cartoon mouse, eat meat 4-5 times a week, and use all full fat dairy products. My cholesterol is always good every year, not even in the "you need to watch this" range. Anecdotal, to be sure, and correlation is not causation. But my dad has heart disease, has had several bypasses thus far, and his issues started at a younger age than I am now.

Whether it matters, I don't know, but I doubt I eat more than 1500 calories a day, and I don't eat a lot at one meal. In my opinion, I could probably stand to lose 15 pounds, but I'm not even close to "overweight" for my height and age. I certainly feel much better not eating processed and fast foods.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:02 am

It is certainly true that saturated fat is not the bogeyman we were once taught. But the proponderance of medical opinion is that, in excess, it is still bad, and related to cardiovascular disease. I went to the trouble of looking up major medical web sites on this, such as the American Medical Association, and the Mayo Clinic. Eat it in moderate amounts and there is no problem. Those who binge on fast foods suffer.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:31 am

Back to `white` garlic - since mine isn`t. Rather it is black before consumption.

https://garlicshaker.com/garlic-recipes ... ack-garlic

We use a rice cooker - starting with the `keep warm` function. As the moisture content drains to the bottom, we pour it off and use it separately. About three such pours in three weeks, and the process is complete. We do first remove most, but not all, of the skin - so after fermentation it can be eaten without mess simply by peeling off the last few skin layers.

The link says it can be kept for 3 months, but we have three years old, and still very good - from zip-locked and refrigerated.

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Re: Coconut BAD!

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:43 am

Coconut is generally a good natural food, but whether it is the miracle food that its promoters are making, well the jury is still out. The coconut water is probably in the same league as almond milk and the like. With Almond milk, there is very little in the way of almonds. This type of hype is for the benefit of the big foodies.

And a similar situation exists with the medical industry. Big pharma is making billions out of all the scary stuff like saturated fats, cholesterol, salt, sugar &etc ad infinitum.

I suggest that America is no different to us here in Australia. We don't exercise, we eat too much carbohydrate, which generally includes junk food, and we have gone away from the home cooked meals that we all used to enjoy.

We follow a "high fat low carb" diet. And by diet I don't mean the usual understanding of the word. The majority of our carbs come from vegetables, you know, those funny things that grow in a garden. And we certainly enjoy our meat, and the saturated fat that goes with it. So we actually burn fat for energy instead of the usual carbs. Trouble with carbs is they are everywhere and we consume far more than we need to support our energy requirements. And of course, what we don't use get stored in our bodies - and they get stored as fat.

So you keep eating far too much carb, you keep storing the excess carbs, and you get fat. Trouble is, your body finds using carbs as energy much easier than using saturated fat, so all those stored up carbs, and any saturated fat you intake, just keep building up in your body. It's a vicious circle.

There have been many studies done over the years, but unfortunately researchers like Ancel Keys, approached these studies with pre-conceived ideas of what the results would be. So he used association as causation, and so the great health lies began. And many studies, if not all, are funded by food companies or big pharma. So these studies are under suspicion before any results get known.

Where I'm heading now is probably for another topic, but let me just add the following. And I'm sure that any of you out there on this forum, who have a scientific bent will know what I am saying. We, the human person, cannot life without saturated fat. And we, the human person, cannot live without cholesterol. Okay, perhaps there is a balance to be achieved, but we are, IMHO, being lied to everyday by the various authorities who keep telling us what we should eat.


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