Organic food

A skeptical look at medical practices
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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Organic food cuts cancer risk

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:13 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:34 am
Gord wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:15 am
TJrandom wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:45 pm
I found this article on CNN – based upon a scientific study, saying that eating organic foods reduced the risk for cancer. I have not been an organic food consumer, given the generally higher price, but have been concerned with pesticide residue. Unfortunately I frequently did not follow through and thoroughly wash or peel.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/22/heal ... index.html
The link they give to the article in JAMA doesn't work for me, so I tried searching for it. Is this it?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... ultClick=1
Yes, I believe it is. Thanks.
Thanks, but this raises even more questions:
Some stats on non-hodgkins lymphoma

1. The rate for NHL is 19.4/100k population. Over the 7 years of the study, that means there would be an expectation of 98 new cases, yet there were only 47. Why? It suggests that either the study is anomalous, or maybe biased. Without an analysis of the difference between the study results and the general population, it doesn't really tell anything at all.
Keep in mind that the general population also includes people who eat organic, so that is not an explanation.

2. The organic portion of their diets were divided by subjective categories and based on self-reporting. Self-reporting in dietary studies is notoriously problematic. What is the difference between 'some' and 'most'? All they really know is what people told them about the sources of their food, not what the sources actually were.

It also ignores the fact that organic can include many different farming practices, and can include pesticide residues too.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:10 pm

Just a point to landrew.
Modern foods might have a small reduction in vitamins compared to older foods, but it matters not at all. It is easy to get the required dose. Any extra is simply excreted from the body and is useless. For example, the average adult needs 50 milligrams per day of vitamin C. You can get that from one lemon.
The vast bulk of people will consume a lot more than 50 mgs and will simply excrete the surplus.

The key is simply to eat a healthy balanced diet and the issue of slightly lower vitamin levels rapidly becomes a non issue.

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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:26 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:10 pm
Just a point to landrew.
Modern foods might have a small reduction in vitamins compared to older foods, but it matters not at all. It is easy to get the required dose. Any extra is simply excreted from the body and is useless. For example, the average adult needs 50 milligrams per day of vitamin C. You can get that from one lemon.
The vast bulk of people will consume a lot more than 50 mgs and will simply excrete the surplus.

The key is simply to eat a healthy balanced diet and the issue of slightly lower vitamin levels rapidly becomes a non issue.
We can agree on vitamin C, but the elements in the nutrient cycle are being depleted. Most of them take a one-way trip off the farm, never to return, and end up in the ocean.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:17 pm

To a point, that is true, landrew.
But we add those nutrients back with fertiliser. There have been numerous predictions of humanity running out of fertiliser, but so far, no problem. The material in shortest supply is phosphate, and the recent discovery is of vast phosphate resources under the ocean. Biggest is off south west Africa.

Humanity keeps defying those kinds of predictions. We are an innovative species, and keep right on increasing food production per acre, despite the alarmists.

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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:51 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:17 pm
To a point, that is true, landrew.
But we add those nutrients back with fertiliser. There have been numerous predictions of humanity running out of fertiliser, but so far, no problem. The material in shortest supply is phosphate, and the recent discovery is of vast phosphate resources under the ocean. Biggest is off south west Africa.

Humanity keeps defying those kinds of predictions. We are an innovative species, and keep right on increasing food production per acre, despite the alarmists.
I'm repeating myself here, but plants only receive a handful of elements through fertilizer. The human body needs about 60 elements, which we get through our food. Plants absorb those elements from the soil, but once depleted, the plants aren't affected.
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Re: Organic food

Post by TJrandom » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:24 pm

BTW my gun analogy was intentionally over the top. That if you don’t know everything you cannot know anything was similarly ridiculous. Needing more study is more appropriate given the study results than is claiming it was worthless.
Last edited by TJrandom on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am

Something I just dug out. I have a copy of a book by Dr. W. Alan Sweeney, about the impact of chemicals on health and the environment. Let me quote five points he makes.

"1. Man made pesticides in food are generally inconsequential. There are at least 10,000 times as much similar natural pesticides already present, such as solanine and nicotine, made by the plants to protect themselves from microbes and insects.

2. Overall, man-made chemicals are no more toxic than natural chemicals.

3. Man-made chemicals are very much less likely to be causing cancer than the more widespread natural chemicals we are surrounded by, such as solanine, aflatoxin, and vomitoxin.

4. When cancer rates are corrected for the increase in longevity, they have not increased since World War II except for the effects of smoking and exposure to the sun (skin cancer).

5. Man-made chemicals biodegrade (break downlink the environment) as readily as natural chemicals."

End of quote.
My own view is that people are suckers for anything stated as "natural", even when the statement comes from corporations making billions of dollars from the lies and misdirections. When those corporations sponsor 'research' which concludes that one 10,000th of the pesticide dose that is not natural is causing cancer, while the equally toxic, but present in 10,000 times the amount, "natural " pesticides are not doing any harm, then your skeptic bull-shite alarm should be making loud noises.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
Something I just dug out. I have a copy of a book by Dr. W. Alan Sweeney, about the impact of chemicals on health and the environment. Let me quote five points he makes.

"1. Man made pesticides in food are generally inconsequential. There are at least 10,000 times as much similar natural pesticides already present, such as solanine and nicotine, made by the plants to protect themselves from microbes and insects.

2. Overall, man-made chemicals are no more toxic than natural chemicals.

3. Man-made chemicals are very much less likely to be causing cancer than the more widespread natural chemicals we are surrounded by, such as solanine, aflatoxin, and vomitoxin.

4. When cancer rates are corrected for the increase in longevity, they have not increased since World War II except for the effects of smoking and exposure to the sun (skin cancer).

5. Man-made chemicals biodegrade (break downlink the environment) as readily as natural chemicals."

End of quote.
My own view is that people are suckers for anything stated as "natural", even when the statement comes from corporations making billions of dollars from the lies and misdirections. When those corporations sponsor 'research' which concludes that one 10,000th of the pesticide dose that is not natural is causing cancer, while the equally toxic, but present in 10,000 times the amount, "natural " pesticides are not doing any harm, then your skeptic bull-shite alarm should be making loud noises.

Interesting.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Gord » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:16 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
vomitoxin
Mmm, delicious.
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Re: Organic food

Post by TJrandom » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:43 am

Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:16 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
vomitoxin
Mmm, delicious.
Wiki suggests it isn’t a carcinogen, but then it is Wiki.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Gord » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:59 am

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:43 am
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:16 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
vomitoxin
Mmm, delicious.
Wiki suggests it isn’t a carcinogen, but then it is Wiki.
It also says, "Currently, the effects chronic of low-dose exposure are unknown." If that makes sense in English then I'm a gallow-snarped tail-weaver.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Organic food

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:24 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
Something I just dug out. I have a copy of a book by Dr. W. Alan Sweeney, about the impact of chemicals on health and the environment. Let me quote five points he makes.

"1. Man made pesticides in food are generally inconsequential. There are at least 10,000 times as much similar natural pesticides already present, such as solanine and nicotine, made by the plants to protect themselves from microbes and insects.

2. Overall, man-made chemicals are no more toxic than natural chemicals.

3. Man-made chemicals are very much less likely to be causing cancer than the more widespread natural chemicals we are surrounded by, such as solanine, aflatoxin, and vomitoxin.

4. When cancer rates are corrected for the increase in longevity, they have not increased since World War II except for the effects of smoking and exposure to the sun (skin cancer).

5. Man-made chemicals biodegrade (break downlink the environment) as readily as natural chemicals."

End of quote.
My own view is that people are suckers for anything stated as "natural", even when the statement comes from corporations making billions of dollars from the lies and misdirections. When those corporations sponsor 'research' which concludes that one 10,000th of the pesticide dose that is not natural is causing cancer, while the equally toxic, but present in 10,000 times the amount, "natural " pesticides are not doing any harm, then your skeptic bull-shite alarm should be making loud noises.
Guy sounds just like an industry shill.............you know.........speaking generally.

………….and, you are totally ignoring the distinction between general farming fertilizers with the full range of nuitrients required by hoomans that "used to be" provided without artificial supplementation. The recognition that the PROS AND CONS all added up make corporate farming and stripping and polluting of the environment a cost effective/health effective process... ====> Until the deluge. We can't support 7 Billion without it...…..so.....might as well enjoy the ride?
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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:41 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:43 am
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:16 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 am
vomitoxin
Mmm, delicious.
Wiki suggests it isn’t a carcinogen, but then it is Wiki.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:25 pm

Landrew

The distinction between cancer causing and non cancer causing is not easily seen. Basically, it is all about dose. Vomitoxin at low doses is not cancer causing. At higher doses, we have to say the research is not yet done.

An excellent example is the herbicide glyphosate (active ingredient in RoundUp). Some researchers found it caused cancer in laboratory mice at a ridiciously high dose. This has fuelled law suits against Monsanto by people who claim glyphosate caused their cancers. One case was an ex groundsman who used to spray glyphosate and is now dying of cancer. The jury awarded him 289 millions against Monsanto, even though the scientific evidence would suggest that the doses he received were orders of magnitude too low to cause his cancer. There will be an appeal.

Dr. Bruce Ames found that half of all chemicals, whether natural or synthetic, cause cancer at high dose. Normal low doses are usually harmless. Ignoring the impact of dose is a recipe for nonsense.

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Re: Organic food

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:31 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:24 pm
BTW my gun analogy was intentionally over the top. That if you don’t know everything you cannot know anything was similarly ridiculous. Needing more study is more appropriate given the study results than is claiming it was worthless.
The study may not be worthless, the conclusion that it shows eating from organic sources is.

The topic will be studied further, with more skill. As it should be.
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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:39 pm

I hate to bring this up, but "Mr. 256 years old" was at least older than average when he died, and you could attribute that to all the various things he ingested as a herbalist. No chemicals per say, but a wide variety of plants, which probably contained a wide variety of nutrients.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:22 pm

Landrew

Individual case histories mean nothing. The overall trend is for greater longevity as time passes. Today, people live twice as long on average as they did 200 years ago when they ate a more "natural" diet.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Gord » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:39 pm
I hate to bring this up, but "Mr. 256 years old" was at least older than average when he died, and you could attribute that to all the various things he ingested as a herbalist. No chemicals per say, but a wide variety of plants, which probably contained a wide variety of nutrients.
It must have been his magic underwear.

I wonder what he could have eaten that wasn't made of "chemicals"? It would have to be both massless and have to not occupy any space. Maybe he only ate "energy"? Ooh, maybe he ate gravity! I bet that's a thing!
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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:01 am

Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:39 pm
I hate to bring this up, but "Mr. 256 years old" was at least older than average when he died, and you could attribute that to all the various things he ingested as a herbalist. No chemicals per say, but a wide variety of plants, which probably contained a wide variety of nutrients.
It must have been his magic underwear.

I wonder what he could have eaten that wasn't made of "chemicals"? It would have to be both massless and have to not occupy any space. Maybe he only ate "energy"? Ooh, maybe he ate gravity! I bet that's a thing!
Na, you're thinking of breatharians.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Gord » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:14 am

Air is made of chemicals.
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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:55 am

Gord wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:14 am
Air is made of chemicals.
Especially since they legalized dope in Canada.
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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:57 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:22 pm
Landrew

Individual case histories mean nothing. The overall trend is for greater longevity as time passes. Today, people live twice as long on average as they did 200 years ago when they ate a more "natural" diet.
200 years ago, people often died of what we would think of as fairly minor ailments today. It has more to do with the state of medicine than diets. In fact, I think dietary illnesses were more rare back then.
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Re: Organic food

Post by TJrandom » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:08 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:57 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:22 pm
Landrew

Individual case histories mean nothing. The overall trend is for greater longevity as time passes. Today, people live twice as long on average as they did 200 years ago when they ate a more "natural" diet.
200 years ago, people often died of what we would think of as fairly minor ailments today. It has more to do with the state of medicine than diets. In fact, I think dietary illnesses were more rare back then.
Indeed. I’d have died four times by now if it hadn’t been for modern medical technology, and possibly more if vaccines are included. Ages 3, 6, 8, 67...

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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:00 am

Small point.
Dietary illnesses were in fact, a lot more common 200 years ago. Generally deficiency diseases such as scurvey, rickets, beriberi etc.

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Re: Organic food

Post by Gord » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:59 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:00 am
Small point.
Dietary illnesses were in fact, a lot more common 200 years ago. Generally deficiency diseases such as scurvey, rickets, beriberi etc.
Yes, except that it's scurvy.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:08 am

Gord wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:59 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:00 am
Small point.
Dietary illnesses were in fact, a lot more common 200 years ago. Generally deficiency diseases such as scurvey, rickets, beriberi etc.
Yes, except that it's scurvy.

It's skurvee, right JO?
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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:33 pm

Gord's new icon is dressed up to the nines in the new spelling police uniform. Thwart them at your peril!

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Re: Organic food

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:00 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:00 am
Small point.
Dietary illnesses were in fact, a lot more common 200 years ago. Generally deficiency diseases such as scurvey, rickets, beriberi etc.
On some ships and in remote locations, where the food supply was inadequate. Not likely to have been common where food crops were being grown.
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Re: Organic food

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:28 pm

Actually, landrew, those ills were common in Europe and North America. Diseases of poverty, and much less common today with the greater wealth.