'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

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Willywizz
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'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:27 am

I'm wondering what you guy's thoughts are on this since I'm a little skeptical about it. It's been called many names including 'post exertional intolerance syndrome' 'myalgic encephalitis' and 'yuppie flu'. There's been decades of research but no one can agree on a cause and doctors do not take it seriously and say it's psychological and nobody can find this 'CFS/ME virus' but sufferers are pretty adamant it must be something physical. The main symptoms are fatigue, feeling tired, exercise tires them out, they have brain fog, body aches and pains that have no swelling or redness with them, and bad memory.

There's lots of woo surrounding it, people are blaming immunizations, body turning to 'hibernation mode', 'chem-trails', aliens, a new virus that doctors are hiding, fluoride in water yaddayadda.. and 'stress'. It suddenly popped up in the 1980's and when doctors concluded it may be psychological the doctors were compared to Nazi doctors and received death threats.

linkyy~
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... cientists/

A few doctors will diagnose a person as having cfs / me and one of the criterias is that every cause or 'known' disease must be ruled out eg anemia, hypothyroidism, bad hormone levels etc..basically doctors can't find anything wrong with these people but theyre adamant they have a physical caused illness

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by TJrandom » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:18 pm

I am too fatigued to answer properly....

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:45 pm

I thought it was in part those bugs/flies in the North East? Whatever....its the lack of credibility that arises whenever "the cause" is multiple, easy to mimic and blame for a host of psychological reasons, and no easy cure. its why getting the right diagnosis is 90% of the cure.

aka: of course it exists. And of course lots of people will fake it. Just like always.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:52 pm

There's a clinic at the VA here dedicated to treating Gulf War Syndrome. A few years back the government denied it existed.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:08 pm

Denying reality when it costs money is almost routine. VA is doing it now for vets complaining of illness due to standing around waste burning pits. "If we had universal health care".......it wouldn't even matter, but everyone wants to avoid the cost if avoiding cost is an option.

Talking about the "Man"...I last thought this with the news reports ON THE DAY of 911 with the rescue workers going into those piles of rubble breathing that dust. The Man said it was safe. "I Said"---I don't believe it. Not based on any science....but the well known bias.

............something is in the news currently....its safe too. My established bias still applies.....now, if I can just remember what it was? ......NOT vaccines...oH>>>Round Up. It supposedly kills only one type of living thing but is safe for everything else?....I mean....I could buy it if it was only a risk to some % or type of hoomans....but not totally safe for "everyone." And thing is....IN A VACUUM, it could well be safe. But there is no vacuum. IE: Round Up plus what combo of any of the 1000's of other chemicals does ........what? and thats my other bias: I don't care if there are weeds in my yard...yes...I'm THAT neighbor.

Course.......I could always be wrong. But I'm not going to drink a cup of it.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:43 pm

By coincidence: seems like kiddies are more and more subject to allergies and sensitivities. I don't doubt that at all.....but here is the latest: Baby Wipes.....and I'd add all the anti-microbial BS that is being foisted on the public. Parents actually trying to put their kiddies in a bubbles: not good, in my book. Tough your kiddies up. Make em eat dirt: its for their own good.

Some years ago....I started eating food with the "bad bits" cut out and that which got dropped on the floor. After all: Julia Child famously did that with a chicken as I fondly recall but took a few years to immitate. I see this germaphobia going on with my new hobby of making Hard Cider. All the emphasis on keeping things clean. its mostly not needed. Too bad we don't have good statistics on how many batches of brew go bad due to contamination...I'll bet its very low. Like EGGS. And the warning not to eat them raw as I do at least once a month for the past few decades. Raw egg milkshakes, ice cream, egg nog, diy Bailey's Cream...etc. If I ever get sick from it, I assume "it will make me stronger" and so forth.

We live in a sea of microbes. Our bodies are more microbe than human by cell count.

................. To each their own, but thats all it is.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/b ... D=ref_fark
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:39 pm

Julia was drunk most of the time.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:39 pm

True ... but the chicken was delicious.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:39 am

I've worked in healthcare for almost 30 years, and while I don't neccesarily believe in CFS, I don't disbelieve in it, either. I think it's worthy of study, and I want more data before I commit either way.

I'm open-minded because of my own issues, and I've run into similar societal problems that CFS sufferers run into.

I have Asperger's syndrome (a kind of high-functioning autism), and I was badly mistreated by my school and family because no one ever believed me and thought that I am the way I am because I choose it...so I can have an excuse to not meet expectations, and get routinely punished because of who I am and how I was born.

Then, science caught up with my situation...and it all turns out that autism isn't my fault after all.

My whole point in this revelation is that I would hate to be dismissive of CFS, and have it turn out later that I took a hard line toward someone with an subtle, yet valid organic disease.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:11 am

KevinLevites wrote:I've worked in healthcare for almost 30 years, and while I don't neccesarily believe in CFS, I don't disbelieve in it, either. I think it's worthy of study, and I want more data before I commit either way.

I'm open-minded because of my own issues, and I've run into similar societal problems that CFS sufferers run into.

I have Asperger's syndrome (a kind of high-functioning autism), and I was badly mistreated by my school and family because no one ever believed me and thought that I am the way I am because I choose it...so I can have an excuse to not meet expectations, and get routinely punished because of who I am and how I was born.

Then, science caught up with my situation...and it all turns out that autism isn't my fault after all.

My whole point in this revelation is that I would hate to be dismissive of CFS, and have it turn out later that I took a hard line toward someone with an subtle, yet valid organic disease.
I'm not outright saying it isn't real, just that the etiology of CFS is quite different to the etiology that CFS sufferers seem to (pretty obsessively) want it to be, which is basically some brand new virus and doctors who don't come to that conclusion are all in on some big pharma conspiracy. There's entire subreddits and forums dedicated to CFS/ME and I'd be lying if I said they weren't very cultish. I think if doctors are skeptical that it exists, that there's a good reason for it and it isn't some silly conspiracy because why would they hide something like that? seems dumb

Things like Asperger Syndrome (had a friend who had it) can be detected, for example brain scans show the brains are different in AS people, hormone levels are different, even small things like facial structure are different (not in a bad way). Also I'm sorry that you had to deal with a bunch of ignorant people man, that really sucks.

I think AS is a lot more elusive than something like a new 'CFS' virus, we've been discovering viruses for ages now, remember Zika? It didn't take us long to find it and identify its effects, how it affects babies etc. CFS is said to infect the brain but rabies does that too yet we've known about the rabies virus for a very long time and there's been a lot more CFS research into a physical cause for decades with no consistent leads.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:31 am

Just because doctors may not have leads doesn't mean that much to me.

As recently as the late 70's, many doctors believed that asthma was a psychological illness that came from parental abandonment issues, and that the wheezing was a subconscious cry for mommie during times of stress.

Also, kids who wet the bed did it out of laziness and spite...until science came up with a nasal spray that replaces a missing hormone called anti-diuretic hormone.

When they get their nasal spray, the bed-wetting stops right away.

So, a lot of kids were (and are) punished and publically humiliated because their bodies don't make enough ADH.

As to whether CFS is caused by a virus? I don't know. I do know (from my experience in healthcare) that quackery, urban legends, misinformation, and other nonsense seem to make a lot more sense to people who are desperate and ready to cling to questionable beliefs because they hurt and can't get help.

I'm sympathetic to this because I was in a similar situation myself because of my autism.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:35 am

KevinLevites wrote:Just because doctors may not have leads doesn't mean that much to me.

As recently as the late 70's, many doctors believed that asthma was a psychological illness that came from parental abandonment issues, and that the wheezing was a subconscious cry for mommie during times of stress.

Also, kids who wet the bed did it out of laziness and spite...until science came up with a nasal spray that replaces a missing hormone called anti-diuretic hormone.

When they get their nasal spray, the bed-wetting stops right away.

So, a lot of kids were (and are) punished and publically humiliated because their bodies don't make enough ADH.

As to whether CFS is caused by a virus? I don't know. I do know (from my experience in healthcare) that quackery, urban legends, misinformation, and other nonsense seem to make a lot more sense to people who are desperate and ready to cling to questionable beliefs because they hurt and can't get help.

I'm sympathetic to this because I was in a similar situation myself because of my autism.
We have to remember that the 70's were a long time ago, we have so much more technology compared to then, which is why I have my doubts that a new, debilitating virus that lasts for decades in the body has somehow gone undetected by scientists despite decades of research being pushed by CFS groups.

Prion disease can be found in the brain of dead people or animals, and prions are a lot more elusive than viruses are.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:47 am

Perhaps.

However, viruses affect different people in different ways. To make my point, consider leprosy (a bacterial, as opposed to a viral illness, but please put this objection aside for just a moment as a technicality so that I can make a point).

About 95% to 98% of all humans are actually immune to it, and can take a bath in leprosy bacteria and have no problems at all.

For the 2% to 5% who have a genetic susceptibility to it and are exposed in childhood...they will develop the disease.

If a virus is responsible, then perhaps it is a common, well-know virus that does nothing to a majority of people...but creates CFS in the small percentage of people that have a genetic susceptibility.

In such a scenario, the virus may be in plain sight but it's the susceptibility that's elusive.

For my money, I don't believe a virus is responsible.

What do I think causes it?

I think that organophosphate pesticide residue in our food may have something to do with it.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:56 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it well accepted now that CANCER is not just one thing but rather is a catchall to describe the resulting effect/progress of several different vectors?

I assume the same is true for CFS...as well as a good excuse for malingerers. I'm just glad I don't have cancer, or diabetes, or anything anyone might call CFS......I just procrastinate. Simple.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it well accepted now that CANCER is not just one thing but rather is a catchall to describe the resulting effect/progress of several different vectors?

I assume the same is true for CFS...as well as a good excuse for malingerers. I'm just glad I don't have cancer, or diabetes, or anything anyone might call CFS......I just procrastinate. Simple.
Yes, you're probably correct.

I just have an issue with labeling something we don't understand as 'malingering'.

I have another example of how being dismissive of subjective symptoms can result in tragedy.

It became apparent in the 80s that gay men had been bouncing from doctor to doctor to doctor looking for relief from vague symptoms of weakness, chronic fatigue, nausea, depression, and so on.

Many physicians dismissed these complaints because homosexuality was viewed as a mental illness, and these gay men were being hypochondriacs to elicit sympathy and, perhaps, satisfy some missing emotional need.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

These psychological symptoms turned out to be AIDS.

I firmly believe that the epidemic would have been recognized sooner if physicians hadn't been dismissive because their patients were gay, and perhaps there wouldn't have been so many deaths.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:19 am

I'm not calling anything malingering. Just noting that malingerers will take advantage of any label other than procrastinators. Self deprecation is like that.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:43 pm

Also, my idea that organophosphate pesticides contribute to CFS?

I have a 2 year degree in organic chemistry (not much past high school, but hear me out) and EMS courses in HAZMAT.

Organophosphate pesticides are the chemical precursors to the nerve agents that are used in chemical warfare.

Everybody here should know about sarin, tabun, soman, VX, VN, and, recently, the Novichuk agents that were developed by Russia.

All of these chemical agents are very, very, very closely related to organophosphate pesticides. Novichuk agents are supposed to be 20-50 times more potent than sarin...which itself is still a gold standard among nerve agents.

I think it's likely that microscopically small quantities of organophosphate residue might be getting changed into nerve agents because of stuff that's used to wash produce, maybe the chlorine in the water used to rinse it, and so on.

As potent as these nerve agents are, I believe that it would only take microscopically tiny quantities to create problems in the human nervous system.

But, then again, perhaps I'm wrong.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:56 pm

No opinions involved: Just Look at the consuming population. How much nerve damage?
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No opinions involved: Just Look at the consuming population. How much nerve damage?
Depends.

People who consume produce treated with organophosphates have a three to fourfold increase in Alzheimer's risk, and, supposedly, a fourfold increase in risk for autism when pregnant women are exposed.

I would imagine that CFS could be a prob, but I don't know the percentages.

Some of the symptoms of CFS seem like minor versions of nerve agent poisoning. The weakness, dizziness, depression, sleepiness, lethargy, and muscle aches are all present in nerve gas poisoning...but of course to a fatal degree.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:18 am

I don't know but it seems a bit early for Alzheimers to express itself given the relatively recent use of Roundup. I have half a recollection that Russian TV ran a few specials on the banning of RoundUp across Europe because of increased cancer and birth defects....or maybe that after about 5-6 years, it no longer worked, some kind of immunity in competing weeds had built up?

It is a pity when we poison our kiddies in order to feed them.................
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:42 am

I think i have something like cfs. If I have a day off,I don't get out of bed. Worried if I retire i will probably get really sick. I agree that toxic chemicals are a major factor.
The shet that is on all plants today would have shocked the ss nazis.
I can't even get the place I work at to admit what they are doing is wrong.
Sump pump with toxic chemicals directly into the river.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 am

Chronic fatigue syndrome, under whatever name you choose to give it, is real. It is very, very unlikely to be caused by organophosphates. The most likely cause is a virus, though no one knows for sure. Those who claim it is psychosomatic are being extremely cruel to the very genuine sufferers who live with it.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:50 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Chronic fatigue syndrome, under whatever name you choose to give it, is real. It is very, very unlikely to be caused by organophosphates. The most likely cause is a virus, though no one knows for sure. Those who claim it is psychosomatic are being extremely cruel to the very genuine sufferers who live with it.
I'm still skeptical of the virus thing. It's 2018, and scientists have been searching for decades for this virus aaaand... where is it, exactly?

Also psychosomatic illnesses can cause physical symptoms sooo it's a bit suspect that the CFS cult desperately wants it to be an alien virus from outer space..

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:03 pm

Keven,
Do individuals with healthy diets report having CFS?

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:41 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Chronic fatigue syndrome, under whatever name you choose to give it, is real. It is very, very unlikely to be caused by organophosphates. The most likely cause is a virus, though no one knows for sure. Those who claim it is psychosomatic are being extremely cruel to the very genuine sufferers who live with it.
Yes....its real, and because so, malingerers will use it as an excuse. Its a catch all category of those: "under the weather" THE CAUSE OF WHICH is many and varied. I agree that if it was a specific virus or bacteria or mold or any other VECTOR: it should have been fallen on by now......or maybe not for some reason that will be made clear. Of course: it is pschosomatic as well as vector caused. All this "either/or" thinking when the answer is almost always: BOTH: and a host of other things: like simple lack of sleep and being over worked.

Imagine that?
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:59 pm

There are other virus (and prion ) illnesses that went for a long time with no definitive causative agent being identified. So this is the probable cause, although (of course ) until the pathogen is clearly identified, we can not be totally sure.

As to a chemical pollutant being the cause, there would be a dose response relationship. That is, those most exposed would be the ones most likely to get the illness. No such relationship has been identified.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:07 pm

So, what you are saying is if we don't know, we don't know? BRILLIANT! Let me take a note.
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:56 pm

That, Bobbo, is a vital part of being a good skeptic. When you do not know, admit it.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:59 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:There are other virus (and prion ) illnesses that went for a long time with no definitive causative agent being identified. So this is the probable cause, although (of course ) until the pathogen is clearly identified, we can not be totally sure.

As to a chemical pollutant being the cause, there would be a dose response relationship. That is, those most exposed would be the ones most likely to get the illness. No such relationship has been identified.
But they've been trying to find this virus for over 40 years and came up with nothing. I find that just a liiiiitle bit suspicious. Does this CFS virus live in the same realm as bigfoot?

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:36 pm

Ww

There are other viruses that took that long or longer.

Viruses vary in size and the very small ones can be almost impossible to detect.

One thing that is definitely known is that the trigger to this condition may be a different virus illness. When the victim recovers from the prior virus illness, the fatigues etc remains. This illness is not permanent, but it may take a decade or more for full recovery. There are other viral illnesses that take a long time to recover from, so this is consistent.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Willywizz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:04 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Ww

There are other viruses that took that long or longer.

Viruses vary in size and the very small ones can be almost impossible to detect.

One thing that is definitely known is that the trigger to this condition may be a different virus illness. When the victim recovers from the prior virus illness, the fatigues etc remains. This illness is not permanent, but it may take a decade or more for full recovery. There are other viral illnesses that take a long time to recover from, so this is consistent.
You could say that fairies are small and that's why people haven't found them.. I don't think it's likely tho..
My brother takes steroids for his asthma so his immune system's lower than avg, he got mono last year and doctors found mono in his blood, he's ok now though and it didn't last for decades even though it lasted for three weeks

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:17 am

Ww

Virus diseases are all different in terms of time to recover. For example, warts are caused by viruses, and there are more than 100 different viruses that cause warts. There is no cure for the warts viruses, but each type has a typical duration. In due course, the human immune system wipes out the warts virus. Depending on the type of virus involved, it may take anything from a few weeks to many years to eliminate the warts. This leads to the interesting situation where 'cures ' for warts are myriad. All are useless but all have people who swear by them. The reason is that a person with warts is likely to do anything suggested to eliminate them, and the useless treatment they were taking just before the warts disappear becomes the one they swear by.

On size, it is very clear that the smaller viruses are the ones that are more difficult to isolate and identify.

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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by KevinLevites » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:10 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:Keven,
Do individuals with healthy diets report having CFS?
I don't know specifically, but I strongly suspect that they do.

If our understanding of CFS is ever advanced and it turns out to be a real medical condition (which I strongly suspect that it is), I believe we may find multiple causes.

As a comparison, consider pneumonia.

Pneumonia is a disease with many different causes. It can be caused by different viruses, by bacteria, by chemical exposure, or (in the case of AIDS patients) by a protozoa or a fungus. Sometimes it has many causes.

Regardless of the causes, the syptoms of pneumonia are the same (or very similar) regardless of what causes the disease.

I believe that CFS may be an organic medical condition that will turn out to have different root causes, and this is why it's so difficult to track down a single organism or other cause.

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TJrandom
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Re: 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'

Post by TJrandom » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:18 pm

I found this PDF - a study of studies across the world. Following a quick read, it seems to me that CFS could be stress related - with Korea and US Gulf War Soldiers having a high rate, and the US and UK having a high rate across their populations relative to other countries. I did not see a study that focused on job stress as a cause/trigger, but there were numerous ones that suggested low-stress jobs for sufferers.