Going to Hell in a handbasket

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landrew
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Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:38 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:22 pm

You had a handbasket? Luxury!
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Poodle » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:24 pm

When ah were a lad, we 'ad none o' this.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:06 pm

At least you had nothing! We didn't even have that. Dad used to send us out looking for it.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Thank you, landrew, for posting that video. I urge everyone to view it. It shows how the world actually is, rather than how all those lying journalists make it out to be.

Most expecially, I urge that paragon of pessimism, Bobbo, to view it. He might learn something of how the real world actually is, instead of how his purely superstitious ideas make it appear.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:05 pm

Pyrrho wrote:At least you had nothing! We didn't even have that. Dad used to send us out looking for it.
You must be a Yorkshireman at heart:
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by TJrandom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:43 pm

WTF? He clearly stated that he used a constant yardstick, and not the logarithmic yardstick we need to be using. MAGA!

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:16 am

MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.
Since the USA is such a stupidly religious place, let me quote the bible. For once, in this case, the New Testament got it right. "Let he who would be greatest, be servant of all."

In other words, greatness comes from serving others. The USA has never shown much interest in serving anyone other than itself. American politicians are the worst of all. They are simply out to line their own pockets. So MAGA is no more than a sick joke.

There are, of course, many individual Americans who are great. But not the nation itself.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by TJrandom » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:21 am

Lance - a bit harsh I think... but I was joking with that MAGA... I know it needed a smiley....

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:35 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.

There may have been a time when most Americans were generous and benevolent and approved of the inscription under the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..," and there are still people here who believe in those sentiments and want to keep them alive to restore to prominence after the Fourth Reich goes bankprupt freeing the world to death.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:57 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.

There may have been a time when most Americans were generous and benevolent and approved of the inscription under the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..," and there are still people here who believe in those sentiments and want to keep them alive to restore to prominence after the Fourth Reich goes bankprupt freeing the world to death.
It's amazing how many people imagine freedom from the despot who seeks to enslave them.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:39 pm

Just like the USA is not and never has been a democracy. When first formed, voting rights were so discriminatory that only 8% of the population were permitted to vote. Today the Electoral College makes sure that the democratic ideal of one person one vote is just a joke.

For the USA, is that a democracy, or a demoncracy ?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:12 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Just like the USA is not and never has been a democracy. When first formed, voting rights were so discriminatory that only 8% of the population were permitted to vote. Today the Electoral College makes sure that the democratic ideal of one person one vote is just a joke.

For the USA, is that a democracy, or a demoncracy ?
Classical Greek democracy only included the wealthiest class as well. Most of the rest were non-voting serfs and slaves.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:04 am

Is it possible that US edicts are merely "irritating" and no longer carved in stone by our Creator?

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News ... -Iran.html
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Is it possible that US edicts are merely "irritating" and no longer carved in stone by our Creator?

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News ... -Iran.html
In a free-will universe nothing is carved in stone, except for what some demigod wants you to think is the word of god.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.

There may have been a time when most Americans were generous and benevolent and approved of the inscription under the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..," and there are still people here who believe in those sentiments and want to keep them alive to restore to prominence after the Fourth Reich goes bankprupt freeing the world to death.
I like to point out that the statue is French.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.

There may have been a time when most Americans were generous and benevolent and approved of the inscription under the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..," and there are still people here who believe in those sentiments and want to keep them alive to restore to prominence after the Fourth Reich goes bankprupt freeing the world to death.
I like to point out that the statue is French.
Was French. It emigrated.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:56 pm

Were the proper forms filled out and approved? Did she answer all the questions Immigration put to her? Did she provide urine and blood samples?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:27 pm

And x-rays, hand carried, to prove absence of TB....

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:49 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:MAGA ?
Make America great again ?

It never was great in the first place.

There may have been a time when most Americans were generous and benevolent and approved of the inscription under the Statue of Liberty that begins "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..," and there are still people here who believe in those sentiments and want to keep them alive to restore to prominence after the Fourth Reich goes bankprupt freeing the world to death.
I like to point out that the statue is French.
Was French. It emigrated.
A bit cynical of me, but France was befriending the Americans to get back at the British. The love affair has not persisted.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:54 am

Countries don't have friends, they have interests.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Countries don't have friends, they have interests.
Neither do some people.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:51 am

Billions for farmers. Will the billions be borrowed from China?

https://www.apnews.com/60b2acc81d394e01 ... mp-tariffs
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:07 am

This administration’s tariffs and bailouts aren’t going to make America great again, they’re just going to make it 1929 again.”
That bares repeating...
This administration’s tariffs and bailouts aren’t going to make America great again, they’re just going to make it 1929 again.”
:oldman:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:13 am

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:31 am

1931, rather. Most of 1929 was fun, IIRC. (Google: Oct. 29th.)
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:06 pm

Front page headlines in today's Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, says Economy Grew by 4.1 Percent

This articles in Wikipedia, below, says that the budget for 2018 was roughly $ 4 trillion, and the deficit roughly $ .8 trillion, with a total GDP of about $20 trillion.

Since military spending and most other state, local, and federal SPENDING is counted as services when calculating total goods and services in the Gross Domestic Product, I'm wondering if this alleged 4% growth rate is fake news if one doesn't consider such things as production of such things as drone-fired rockets or studies by the Dept. of Education to be "productive", and not to be placed along side of consumer goods. I don't know. I'm just asking.

2018 United States federal budget - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Unit ... ral_budget

Submitted by: Donald Trump
Total revenue: $3.654 trillion (estimated)
Submitted to: 115th Congress
Submitted: March 16, 2017

OverviewContentsBackgroundTrump administration budget proposalCongressional budget resolutionRelated fiscal legislation

2018 Budget of the United States federal government Submitted March 16, 2017 Submitted by Donald Trump Submitted to 115th Congress Total revenue $3.654 trillion Total expenditures $4.094 trillion Deficit $804 billion GDP $20.237 trillion Website Official website containing the 2018 budget ‹ 2017 2019 › The United States federal budget for fiscal year 2018, which runs from October 1, 2017 to September 30, 2018, was named America First: A Budget Blueprint to Make America Great Again. It...


Total GDp for 2018 is estimated at $20 trillion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... ted_States

FY 2017 revenues were 17.3% of gross domestic product (GDP), versus 17.7% in FY 2016. Tax revenues averaged approximately 17.4% GDP over the 1980-2017 period. Tax revenues averaged approximately 17.4% GDP over the 1980-2017 period.
Currency: United States dollar (USD) = $1, Dollar Index
Trade organizations: WTO, OECD and others
GDP: $20.83 trillion (2018 est.)
Fiscal year: October 1, 2017 – September 30, 2018

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:45 am

Tom Palven wrote:Front page headlines in today's Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, says Economy Grew by 4.1 Percent
Gee Tom. I thought your studied economics at Cornell University. :lol: :lol: :lol:

In "Macroeconomics 101" What happens to GDP if I decrease taxation, thus increasing future perceived profit.
1) GDP decreases
2) GDP remains constant
3) GDP increases.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Front page headlines in today's Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, says Economy Grew by 4.1 Percent
Gee Tom. I thought your studied economics at Cornell University. :lol: :lol: :lol:

In "Macroeconomics 101" What happens to GDP if I decrease taxation, thus increasing future perceived profit.
1) GDP decreases
2) GDP remains constant
3) GDP increases.
It's not that simple; you forgot to allow for the Law of Diminishing Returns, and the point where an net increase becomes a net decrease.

Examples are retail price increases, applied fertilizer and cold medicine. It's positive to a point, then goes neutral, and then goes negative.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:32 am

landrew wrote: It's not that simple; you forgot to allow for the Law of Diminishing Returns, and the point where an net increase becomes a net decrease.
So......are you denying that lowering tax will increase GDP?

( I am a socialist and think Trump's tax reduction was both stupid and short sighted. At no point did anyone construct a Laffer curve to predict what the tax rate should be. If any trade war arises between the USA and the rest of the world, then US government revenue will become extremely elastic to any downturn to the economy. That means a democrat government in the future will have the difficult political task of raising taxes again. )

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
landrew wrote: It's not that simple; you forgot to allow for the Law of Diminishing Returns, and the point where an net increase becomes a net decrease.
So......are you denying that lowering tax will increase GDP?

( I am a socialist and think Trump's tax reduction was both stupid and short sighted. At no point did anyone construct a Laffer curve to predict what the tax rate should be. If any trade war arises between the USA and the rest of the world, then US government revenue will become extremely elastic to any downturn to the economy. That means a democrat government in the future will have the difficult political task of raising taxes again. )
Actually, I don't know. I do know that when taxes are too high, a tax break can give the economy a shot in the arm and raise GDP. When taxes are too low, raising them raises GDP. Simple basic stuff really.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Front page headlines in today's Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, says Economy Grew by 4.1 Percent
Gee Tom. I thought your studied economics at Cornell University. :lol: :lol: :lol:

In "Macroeconomics 101" What happens to GDP if I decrease taxation, thus increasing future perceived profit.
1) GDP decreases
2) GDP remains constant
3) GDP increases.

I didn't major in the dismal science, and so I didn't have to accept the wonders of Keynesianism. Did you major in economics?

You are implying that you agree with the Conventional Wisdom that Trump's deficit spending has "boosted the economy" because the US has a "consumer-driven economy" as opposed to a production-driven economy.

To me those premises consist of smoke and mirrors in several ways, but I also disagree with Keynesian central planning because as a member of the lunatic fringe of the radical center I think that all coercion (even taxation) is unethical, which is much too long a story to bother with here.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ov ... &FORM=VIRE
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:39 am

Tom Palven wrote:You are implying that you agree with the Conventional Wisdom that Trump's deficit spending has "boosted the economy" because the US has a "consumer-driven economy" as opposed to a production-driven economy.


I was directly informing you that GDP increases with reducing tax, as it was clear you don't understand basic economics.

Secondly, Trump's tax cuts are stupid and long term disasters for the USA. USA Tax revenue has now become more elastic to reduced GDP and Trump is entering into a trade war with the rest of the world that will reduce the USA's GDP. The USA will run out of money and have to borrow from the people it is having a trade war against.

However our Australian farmers love Trump. Our farmers are not subsidised and are picking up the Chinese markets the USA lost. Trump is going to give his farmers 12 billion dollars to become even more inefficient screwing USA farming for decades.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
However our Australian farmers love Trump. Our farmers are not subsidised and are picking up the Chinese markets the USA lost. Trump is going to give his farmers 12 billion dollars to become even more inefficient screwing USA farming for decades.
That's because Trump hasn't messed with Australia yet. Trump made that mistake with Canada once.
Once!
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:06 am

When he does come around to messing with Australia, please do invite him for a meeting - somewhere remote, for security of course. Somewhere in the outback, sans roads, water, and especially communications - and then as a bonus, let Mr. Bone Spurs walk out. Please... ;)

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:15 am

landrew wrote: That's because Trump hasn't messed with Australia yet. Trump made that mistake with Canada once.
Once!
Actually, Trump abused our Prime Minister on his first day on the phone.

Amazingly, this jogged the memory of our previous Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, about a drunken meeting he had with Papadopoulos and how the Russian were supplying Trump with information. Papadopoulos was probably unaware that Downer was minister in charge of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service.

Alexander Downer's secret meeting with FBI led to Trump-Russia inquiry – report
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... iry-report

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:You are implying that you agree with the Conventional Wisdom that Trump's deficit spending has "boosted the economy" because the US has a "consumer-driven economy" as opposed to a production-driven economy.


I was directly informing you that GDP increases with reducing tax...

Secondly, Trump's tax cuts are stupid and long term disasters for the USA.

You didn't answer whether you majored in economics or not, but according to you, Trump's tax cuts both increased the GDP and are a long-term disaster.

It's been said that if you laid all the economists in the world end to end that they wouldn't reach a conclusion, so maybe you really are a credentialed economist. :mrgreen:

It's my position, as I said, that Trump's deficit spending probably did not boost real GDP.


(Oh, and you still haven't told me just how happy you are that The Yanks are coming, the Yanks, are coming, the drums rum-tumming everywhere...)
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Poodle » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:46 am

T'america were lucky! When me dad were t'Chancellor o' Exchequer, 'e reduced t'tax to nowt. Eee - it were daft. T'prices went to buggery, so 'e 'ad to increase t'tax to infinity to stairbilise t'economy. Worked a treat, it did. Nowt moves in t'economy now at all. Economic theory be buggered! All it needs is a bit o' good owld Yorkshire common sense.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:59 am

Tom Palven wrote:You didn't answer whether you majored in economics or not, but according to you, Trump's tax cuts both increased the GDP and are a long-term disaster.
Tom I have many degrees. My economics modules for my accounting degree simply added credits towards my law degree specialising in tax law.
Tom Palven wrote:(Oh, and you still haven't told me just how happy you are that The Yanks are coming, the Yanks, are coming, the drums rum-tumming everywhere...)
"The Yanks" have been in Australia since WWII. There are now 2,500 being trained in Darwin by Aussies as the USA has lost influence in the Philippines and Australia has more experience in counter insurgency. Have you ever heard of ANZUS? (probably not) It has existed since 1951.

Hey Tom. Which two countries armies had a war with Indonesia under UN resolution 1264 and freed East Timor from Indonesian occupation. It wasn't the USA and so you probably didn't see it on Fox News. :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:08 am

Tom Palven wrote: It's my position, as I said, that Trump's deficit spending probably did not boost real GDP.
You don't have a position. :lol:

Remember how I asked you how your 1961 Military Industrial Complex conspiracy would work economically, with the large USA weapons manufacturers going bankrupt or closing down and you ran away.

Would you like to try again?
:lol: