Justice, Southern Africa Style

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Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:24 am

In l948 white South Africans enacted the separationist apartheid laws, which among other things included legislation supported by white labor unions that excluded blacks from many lines of work including such things as driving taxicabs.

In 1987, while Nelson Mandela was still in prison, South African Libertarian Party members Frances Kendall and Leon Louw published a book titled After Apartheid: The Solution for South Africa. They provided good reasons and methods for abolishing all segregationist apartheid laws, but their recommendations went largely unheeded as the South African secret police continued to plant false flags pitting Zulus, Xhosas, and other tribes against each other while murdering emerging leaders.
https://www.amazon.com/After-Apartheid- ... sth+africa

Now, according to this Australian news article, South Africa is preparing to follow in the steps of Rhodesia, once the bread basket of Africa, and now the basket case of Africa, by confiscating the land of white farmers, without compensation, and the wonder is that it took this long.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/ ... 3576c4c0bc
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:44 am

Other countries have populism too, it seems.
A bad development, and a solution with an extremely lousy track record, to be sure.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Poodle » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:49 am

Hmmmm. South Africa. After the release of Mandela, the shining hope of sub-Saharan Africa. Now just another political cesspit. Please disagree if you can.
Last edited by Poodle on Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:49 am

The critical question is: what is South Africa doing with the land?
I fear it will sell it to Chinese, UK and US companies.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:01 pm

Poodle wrote:Hmmmm. South Africa. After the release of Mandela, the shining hope of sub-Saharan Africa. Now just another political cesspit. Please disagree if you can.
I don't disagree, but I don't think that it necessarily had to be this way.

Just as communists were supporting MLK while the FBI was trying to discredit him, Russia was supporting the rebel African National Congress while the US government was maintaining ties to the white supremicist South African governemnt.

You had "capitalists" vs. "communists" and the only other alternative in the game were few dozen South African members of Libertarian International.

LI was created by Canadians Vince Miller and Bruce Evoy, and was closely associated with the US Libertarian Party. It later merged with the US-based Society for International Liberty and became ISIL, the International Society for International liberty and has since morphed into Liberty International. which is organized in over 80 countries. Fwiw, Wikipedia doesn't have the history quite right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_I ... anization)
(Note that last parenthesis in the above line doesn't copy and you have to click on "do you mean.")

Anyway, with communist Russia sending arms and advisors to the ANC, and only a few dozen LI members advocating a free enterprise solution to the situation in South Africa, it's no wonder that the 26,000,000 black South Africans (versus 4 million whites) at the time, turned to communism.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:28 pm

Tom Palven wrote:You had "capitalists" vs. "communists" and the only other alternative in the game were few dozen South African members of Libertarian International.
There was no Libertarian Party of South Africa until 2014 which was after Mandela died and after Apartheid ended in 1991.

In contrast, The Libertarian Party of Russia was registered in 2007.

My cat has more influence on Sth African politics than the International Alliance of Libertarian Parties.
:lol:

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:34 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:The critical question is: what is South Africa doing with the land?
I fear it will sell it to Chinese, UK and US companies.
I think you are probably right. The land will be assigned to the state, who will then lease it out to commercial operators. The law also includes property such as buildings.

The UK had this problem with rich families owning all the land 100 years ago. It is property tax and inheritance tax that breaks this cycle equitably, and not seizing land without compensation.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:You had "capitalists" vs. "communists" and the only other alternative in the game were few dozen South African members of Libertarian International.
There was no Libertarian Party of South Africa until 2014 which was after Mandela died and after Apartheid ended in 1991.

My cat ....:lol:
If you will look again at my post, you will see that Leon Louw and his wife Frances Kendall, who wrote South Africa: The Solution, were members of Libertarian International, not the US Libertarian Party, but closely associated with the LP.

In 1988 they hosted a Libertarian International convention in Johannesburg which my first wife and I attended along with perhaps a couple of dozen other Americans and a few dozen people from various European countries along with South Africans. The convention addressed the issue of ending apartheid in South Africa.

The speakers were interesting, a side trip to Kruger National Park was interesting, and most interesting was a trip to Swaziland where we all had dinner with the king.

Especially exciting was when our bus was stopped after we crossed back into South Africa and uniformed men with uzis ordered us to take our suitcases out of the bus and sit down beside them on the ground and open them, and everyone but Leon Louw complied. He stood there yelling at the South African soldiers in Afrikaans and all we could make out were a few words like "you bloody Nazis!" Finally they let us get back on the bus and leave.

When we got back to the States we learned that Pro Jack, one of our black South African speakers, had been shot and killed.

You're turn to laugh it up again, 008.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:18 am

Tom Palven wrote:If you will look again at my post and the OP, you will see that Leon Louw and his wife Frances Kendall, who wrote South Africa: The Solution, were members of Libertarian International, not the Libertarian Party, but closely associated with the LP.
The book was 1981 and there was no South African Libertarian Party until 2014.

Sooooo...... Are they members of your international "Deep State" Conspiracy? Do you think they were CIA and controlling the world?
:lol:

You are aware that Leon Louw worked for the ANC, specifically Winnie Mandela* as he was an ex-communist?

‘I was a radical communist revolutionary mainly because that’s what opponents of apartheid were presumed to be. I became converted to capitalism mainly by the literature of Ayn Rand (Atla Shrugged) and Robert Heinlein (Starship troopers)" , Leon Louw

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:If you will look again at my post and the OP, you will see that Leon Louw and his wife Frances Kendall, who wrote South Africa: The Solution, were members of Libertarian International, not the Libertarian Party, but closely associated with the LP.
The book was 1981 and there was no South African Libertarian Party until 2014.

Sooooo...... Are they members of your international "Deep State" Conspiracy? Do you think they were CIA and controlling the world?
:lol:

You are aware that Leon Louw worked for the ANC, specifically Winnie Mandela* as he was an ex-communist?

‘I was a radical communist revolutionary mainly because that’s what opponents of apartheid were presumed to be. I became converted to capitalism mainly by the literature of Ayn Rand (Atla Shrugged) and Robert Heinlein (Starship troopers)" , Leon Louw
Laugh it up, 008.

They say it's the best medicine.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:40 am

Tom Palven wrote: Laugh it up, 008. They say it's the best medicine.
I am laughing it up. Why bother with the internet in 2020 when the Russians can do something new and use the International Libertarians, to continue USA turmoil, run from Moscow.

Just out of interest, what are the differences in policies between the Libertarian Party of Russia and Putin's United Russia? What countries, other than Russia, currently have Libertarians in their respective governments?

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:43 am

Isn't the elephant in the Room that South African "native peoples" aren't capable of rising above ancient tribal BS? ....... and when it comes to being better or worse off as a country........you gotta say: "for whom"? I don't actually know if the trickle down economy from what the Whites don't ship overseas to Swiss Banks leaves a "better" situation for the rest of the Blacks or not...........but I don't assume that it does.

From the biased/uninformed position I have....looks to me like South Africa/Rhodesia etc should import some aggressive entrepreneurs from Nigeria and get a help yourself ethic established....or let the Indian and Chinese middle class shop keepers back in?

To restate: just what is the moral argument for letting whites keep their large plantations/ranches/reserves?
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Isn't the elephant in the Room that South African "native peoples" aren't capable of rising above ancient tribal BS? ...
Uneducated people tend to back the comfortable known, no matter what their place of birth. However, Nelson Mandela himself shows the error in your question.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:29 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Isn't the elephant in the Room that South African "native peoples" aren't capable of rising above ancient tribal BS?
Nope. The elephant is that moving away from a "slave economy" is hard, and those formerly enslaved tend to stay in the lowest income brackets for a long time afterwards. Prejudices die hard, and labour markets need to shift away from the institutionalized forms and practices. Wasn't any different in the US. Slaves were freed, but went on being basically servants in the south. To this day, blacks are much worse off as a group than their "masters" long after formal discrimination ended.

Now in Africa, you get a twist since the former slaves are majorities in their countries. When those countries liberate and become democracies you can get a political outlet for built-up resentment. South Africa has so far fared much better than say, Rhodesia, which has basically thrown out most white people directly or indirectly. But seeing that Sth Africa has enormous unemployment, there still are large swathes of the population that are poor and with few prospects, AND you get the perception that things are not improving, then it can get toxic. Part of the problem now, is the dominance of the ANC in politics since Mandela giving them an entrenched position taken advantage of by Zuma and his cronies. ANC is being challenged from extreme leftists (The economic freedom fighters), so this move towards confiscation is also about securing that flank.

But I would agree with Matt's notion that taxing the hell out of the rich would have been a much better option. Unfortunately, I suspect that too many party insiders will count as "rich"...

(Who needs the CIA to explain the world's ills when you have the powerful and wealthy managing that just fine)

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:18 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
(Who needs the CIA to explain the world's ills when you have the powerful and wealthy managing that just fine)

Peace
Dan
I agree that we don't need the CIA. :D

Peace,
Tom
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:54 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
(Who needs the CIA to explain the world's ills when you have the powerful and wealthy managing that just fine)

Peace
Dan
I agree that we don't need the CIA. :D

Peace,
Tom
Now, complete the sentence, and maybe you'll see that at most the CIA is the occasional vehicle for those real power players. ;)

Peace
Dan
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:59 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Laugh it up, 008.
You keep making this joke and I don't get it.
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Monster » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:16 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Laugh it up, 008.
You keep making this joke and I don't get it.
Me neither.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:19 pm

Monster wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Laugh it up, 008.
You keep making this joke and I don't get it.
Me neither.
Scroll back and look at all Secret Agent 008 Matthew Ellard's laughing smileys.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:44 pm

Yeah, I've read the whole thread. I guess you're implying he's a secret agent for the CIA and also somehow for MI6 ?
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:10 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Yeah, I've read the whole thread. I guess you're implying he's a secret agent for the CIA and also somehow for MI6 ?
I don't know if he actually works for the CIA or the Australian equivalent, but he's sure in love with them, heart and soul.
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:40 pm

Tribal Politics/Ethnic Animosity: seems to me I see a Black African's tribal association often mentioned and connected to disputes they are having with governing factions within their society. I DON'T KNOW....how that applies to South Africa. Its also directly either the cause or the excuse for major ethnic cleansing/genocides in Middle Africa, again not South Africa.

So...if the failure to thrive is free from this taint, then thats one less problem for them to deal with leaving IN THE MAIN for all issues, the legacy of apartheid government. Its wasn't "slavery" by name?????

Anyhoo.....yeah... trying to figure out how to educate and motivate the masses is always a challenge, especially when those in power with access to or control over the $$$ it would take to do that...is always subject to greed and the desire to divert that money to your own pocket..............especially when the majority of the victims aren't of your family or tribe????? ((But I don't know.... just sticking with the theme as if I could not learn from new information.))

Nelson Mandela was ONE MAN. an exception that does not obviate the general rule/condition/outlook/beliefs of everyone else in society. IIRC.... even his own wifey? Mandelas come along once a century.
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... Mandelas come along once a century.
We are in complete agreement on that, bobbo.

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:38 pm

Edited the blue below. Spent an hour or so on Google and Mandela Land Reform. He was right in surmizing that equitable land reform was necessary for a stable just society. I think he proposed 30% of white land be returned to blacks....but after 20 years...they still aren't there yet. As always: corruption and greed.

What to do? I do think confiscation is very fair in concept....it just doesn't work in practice. I also don't think Mandelas notion of paying the whites fair market value is right either..... the history of it all. there must be a compromise, for instance in the legislation for Land return policies for those blacks who could show their land was stolen in the worst way by more recent apartheid laws. More justice when tenant farmers and those over 65 on the land were given more rights....if it actually worked out that way.

I dunno. Seems to me a "compromise" with the vagaries of HISTORY and the need for social justice: divide the land up equally? I don't know how to figure out how many and what blacks have a "right" to ancestral lands currently occupied by whites. Some historical thread must be there?.....always argumentative. Allow each white to keep their house and ten Hectares/divide the rest? Stings like a M-F'r...but better than total loss...........and How did they get the land in the first place?

Heh, heh. Ancestral claims. I don't know if this happened, but I can imagine some African Chief "giving" land to some White Gangster in return for his help in stealing land from the next tribe over. All nice and "ancestral". What is "fair" in THAT arrangement? Lot's of room for disagreement. "Just divide it Up".... makes some sense to me.

I ALWAYS LIKE: the government having civilian work/job programs....low but honest wages to band together and build roads, parks, hosptials, plant trees and whatnot. Seems to me that whoever gets the land should be taxed enough to provide such employment to everyone else who wants it.

Notice: I"m not even saying "stop the fraud." I mean: lets get real.
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:52 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Yeah, I've read the whole thread. I guess you're implying he's a secret agent for the CIA and also somehow for MI6 ?
Actually that would be neither.

Firstly the SIS (Mi6) has intelligence officers and not agents. Agents supply information to intelligence officers and SIS engaged specialist contractors. (In the novels, James Bond was a Commander in the Royal Navy contracted to the SIS)

Secondly Ian Fleming made up the "OO" registration for officers who used guns for the James Bond books. As everyone here knows, I've never touched a gun and never will. I admit I go to arms shows but the pen is still mightier than the sword.

Thirdly as an Australian citizen I can only join ASIS or ASIO, as a Canadian can only join CSIS or the RCMP, or a New Zealander can only join NZSIS (which does both foreign and domestic intelligence services). I can't join the UK's SIS.

Poor Tom simply has to post bad things about the CIA and FBI, without having a clue what the CIA or FBI actually do.



(008, in the James Bond book Moonraker, was Bill Timothy who shared an office with 007 and 0011 at the front office Universal Exports. In Goldfinger (1958), Bond warns Auric Goldfinger that 008 will replace him if he kills Bond. That makes me about 100 year old.) :D

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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I don't know if he actually works for the CIA or the Australian equivalent, but he's sure in love with them, heart and soul.
No Tom. I'm not "in love" with them. I simply know what they are and what they do.

That's because ASIS, the SIS and the German BND work together on international money laundering and international tax scams using copyrights. I used to be in private practice running 10BA movie tax schemes until I got busted. I then swapped sides and studied law in a Aust Tax Office program before returning to private practice in entertainment accounting, and then retiring when my parents died. My business partners were White Russians from Harbin, and that's the Russian connection.