Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

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Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:15 pm

"WASHINGTON — Americans last year reaped the largest economic gains in nearly a generation as poverty fell, health insurance coverage spread and incomes rose sharply for households on every rung of the economic ladder, ending years of stagnation."

The LIE is reporting Household Income as a measure of wealth whereas the truth is just the opposite: a measure of our faltering economy and declining life style. Personal Income, the one that matters, is steady over the last 30 years, or in decline. Household income goes up as spouses are forced to go to work leaving the kiddies to tend to themselves, or for Prodigal Sons and Daughters to move back home because they can't find jobs to support single person households.

Expect the next fanfare for increased Household Wealth as families move in together to share that overhead. One bedroom per family.

Ain't America Great? All this Household Income? Nothing to see here........move along.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/busin ... -2015.html
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"WASHINGTON — Americans last year reaped the largest economic gains in nearly a generation as poverty fell, health insurance coverage spread and incomes rose sharply for households on every rung of the economic ladder, ending years of stagnation."

The LIE is reporting Household Income as a measure of wealth whereas the truth is just the opposite: a measure of our faltering economy and declining life style. Personal Income, the one that matters, is steady over the last 30 years, or in decline. Household income goes up as spouses are forced to go to work leaving the kiddies to tend to themselves, or for Prodigal Sons and Daughters to move back home because they can't find jobs to support single person households.

Expect the next fanfare for increased Household Wealth as families move in together to share that overhead. One bedroom per family.

Ain't America Great? All this Household Income? Nothing to see here........move along.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/busin ... -2015.html

It was just announced yesterday that we here in Canada have a debt of 1.67 for every 1.00 of disposable income AND that this is the highest in North America. Some of this was what aided some of the U.S. recovery....by transferring debt using the same tactics that had been done to the U.S. citizens. A good example is to how Target set themselves up here in Canada just when they had been breached of security a few years back and lost billions. Then, by setting up Targets here, they transferred the accounting bills to the new Canadian sister company, then purposely let it fail within only a year. Then they went bankrupt....in our system.....debt transfer successful....Target U.S.A. saved!!

This is an example of how your economy has improved some. But I realize this isn't for everyone. Its those small 'trolls' gambling on future failures that are the ones getting rich. It just pushes up the apparent income per family higher when they divide the net gain to the population as a whole. The average success is certainly much smaller.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:10 pm

Target did that? I guess thats just another game the Multi-Nationals can play. Keeping profits overseas, why not dump the debt there too? In a vacuum of naive innocence, I'd lazily think debts should follow the source--ie American sourced debt could only go bankrupt in America.....but.....that is naive. I wonder if its a failure of Canadian Law...the US... or always my favorite: both.

The thing about corporations: even the good ones....... are bad.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:41 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"WASHINGTON — Americans last year reaped the largest economic gains in nearly a generation as poverty fell, health insurance coverage spread and incomes rose sharply for households on every rung of the economic ladder, ending years of stagnation."

The LIE is reporting Household Income as a measure of wealth whereas the truth is just the opposite: a measure of our faltering economy and declining life style. Personal Income, the one that matters, is steady over the last 30 years, or in decline. Household income goes up as spouses are forced to go to work leaving the kiddies to tend to themselves, or for Prodigal Sons and Daughters to move back home because they can't find jobs to support single person households.

Expect the next fanfare for increased Household Wealth as families move in together to share that overhead. One bedroom per family.

Ain't America Great? All this Household Income? Nothing to see here........move along.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/busin ... -2015.html

It was just announced yesterday that we here in Canada have a debt of 1.67 for every 1.00 of disposable income AND that this is the highest in North America.

This is private debt - mostly mortgages and credit card. It has little do with the behavior of corporations, except to the extent that they try to sell their products, and don't care where the money comes from.

Some of this was what aided some of the U.S. recovery....by transferring debt using the same tactics that had been done to the U.S. citizens. A good example is to how Target set themselves up here in Canada just when they had been breached of security a few years back and lost billions. Then, by setting up Targets here, they transferred the accounting bills to the new Canadian sister company, then purposely let it fail within only a year. Then they went bankrupt....in our system.....debt transfer successful....Target U.S.A. saved!!

Really?
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Well, I for one find it hard to believe that Scott could be wrong. Your links are interesting....but what do the odds of Target going bankrupt (IN THE FUTURE) have to do with the fact they just did go bankrupt? Is something flat wrong, mismatched on the timeline.... or what?
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, I for one find it hard to believe that Scott could be wrong. Your links are interesting....but what do the odds of Target going bankrupt (IN THE FUTURE) have to do with the fact they just did go bankrupt? Is something flat wrong, mismatched on the timeline.... or what?

It shows that they did not dump all their debt in their Canadian venture and save themselves. That doesn't mean they didn't dump some, but they are still in trouble.

As near as I can tell, Target still has major debt in Canada, but I couldn't find their status re creditor protection in the couple of minutes I devoted to it. My main point is that the debt to income ratio Scott is talking about was not caused by anything other than people choosing to take on loads of debt. The ratio was over 1.5 in 2008 when the kerfuffle hit. Canadians are one of the few populations that did not pay down personal debt as a response to the collapse.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"WASHINGTON — Americans last year reaped the largest economic gains in nearly a generation as poverty fell, health insurance coverage spread and incomes rose sharply for households on every rung of the economic ladder, ending years of stagnation."



You forgot to mention that, according to those same government sources, unicorns are no longer an endangered species. :lol:

Maybe they only measured economic gains for households in which someone is actually employed. Remember, according to the government people who can't find jobs don't exist. That's how we can maintain a low unemployment number. :)

Obamacare is getting fewer enrollees, so how can health insurance coverage be increasing?

Poverty fell? Maybe it's a typo. They meant to say more people fell into poverty. :cry:
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:41 am

Paul Anthony wrote: ...Obamacare is getting fewer enrollees, so how can health insurance coverage be increasing?


As more people are covered, there are fewer uncovered people to enroll - so the rate of enrollment drops. Coverage is increasing because people are still enrolling, just at a slower pace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in ... ted_States

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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:46 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, I for one find it hard to believe that Scott could be wrong. Your links are interesting....but what do the odds of Target going bankrupt (IN THE FUTURE) have to do with the fact they just did go bankrupt? Is something flat wrong, mismatched on the timeline.... or what?

It shows that they did not dump all their debt in their Canadian venture and save themselves. That doesn't mean they didn't dump some, but they are still in trouble.

As near as I can tell, Target still has major debt in Canada, but I couldn't find their status re creditor protection in the couple of minutes I devoted to it. My main point is that the debt to income ratio Scott is talking about was not caused by anything other than people choosing to take on loads of debt. The ratio was over 1.5 in 2008 when the kerfuffle hit. Canadians are one of the few populations that did not pay down personal debt as a response to the collapse.

I only gave one example of one factor relating to our recent economic decline. The timing with Target is just one example I gave of how what happened a few years ago in the U.S. is being done here. Target DID set themselves up here WHEN the very security attack HIT Target and then when they opened the stores here, they didn't put any REAL quality into it as they did in the U.S. regardless of their big promises. It stayed open for merely a trivial year and went bankrupt ..... IN CANADA. This means that OUR taxpayers here take the burden. And while it won't be public news, this is MY guess of the likely circumstances though I don't have the power one way or the other to prove it.

The point is that your economy had improved a bit and it was based on what debt they could transfer externally. The only other problem that is creating great problems everywhere is to real natural disasters due to drastic climate changes and the Middle East problems, among others. So if the U.S. is 'gaining' it is not noticable to the average joe. AND one of the major money maker is to those gambling in things like debt, defaults, and insurers in often unfair deals where they all WIN most when others LOSE!
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:44 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"WASHINGTON — Americans last year reaped the largest economic gains in nearly a generation as poverty fell, health insurance coverage spread and incomes rose sharply for households on every rung of the economic ladder, ending years of stagnation."





Maybe they only measured economic gains for households in which someone is actually employed. Remember, according to the government people who can't find jobs don't exist. That's how we can maintain a low unemployment number. :)


The media only reports those figures, but your government collects data on all categories of unemployment, including those who have stopped looking even long after benefits have stopped, part timers looking for full time, etc.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:51 am

TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote: ...Obamacare is getting fewer enrollees, so how can health insurance coverage be increasing?


As more people are covered, there are fewer uncovered people to enroll - so the rate of enrollment drops. Coverage is increasing because people are still enrolling, just at a slower pace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in ... ted_States


No, the total enrollment is decreasing. Many healthy people are choosing to pay the fine, because it costs way less than coverage. With insurers pulling out of the market there is less choice, costs are going up and fewer people are willing or able to pay for it. Pay the fine until we're sick, then sign up because preexisting conditions are covered.

Also, the majority who are covered have been shuffled into Medicaid which usually means sub-par care.

Obamacare was designed to fail, so people would be more willing to accept a single-payer system. Then, everyone will be on Medicaid.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:53 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
The media only reports those figures, but your government collects data on all categories of unemployment, including those who have stopped looking even long after benefits have stopped, part timers looking for full time, etc.
knock yourself out


And why do you suppose the media dutifully reports only the data that makes the administration look good? What happened to investigative journalism?
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby TJrandom » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:18 am

Paul Anthony wrote: ... Obamacare was designed to fail, so people would be more willing to accept a single-payer system. Then, everyone will be on Medicaid.


With a single payer system - the drug and services prices fall significantly and everyone will be able to afford coverage.

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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Martin Brock » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Household income goes up as spouses are forced to go to work leaving the kiddies to tend to themselves, or for Prodigal Sons and Daughters to move back home because they can't find jobs to support single person households.

Expect the next fanfare for increased Household Wealth as families move in together to share that overhead. One bedroom per family.

Household income can be very misleading measure, but the recently reported "surge" is short term and has little to do with working spouses, household size and the like, though these factors affect longer term changes in the statistic. When two married persons earning $50k/year each divorce, two households earning $50k/year (weighted twice in the average) replace one household earning $100/year, so a significant increase in divorce (or less frequent marriage) looks like declining wealth when it presumably signals the opposite. Fewer persons per home hardly signals growing poverty. If more people marry or live together (or move in with their parents), because they can't afford easily to live separately, household income increases, which is reported as increasing wealth, though it signals the opposite.

But the short term "surge" is election year propaganda as you say. The Census Bureau changed the questions it asks when conducting the surveys measuring "household income".

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/t ... opper-yet/

Starting in 2013 with a partial phase-in, which was fully implemented in 2014 and 2015, Census changed the questions and the methods it uses in calculating the “money incomes” of households. During 2014, for example, it started to “collect the value of assets that generate income if the respondent is unsure of the income generated.”

It also helpfully filled in the questionnaire where respondents answered with “don’t know” or where they “refused” to answer with its own prompted quesstimates about what the answer should have been!

For instance, as a result of this “improved reporting” of interest income, the number of recipients in this category increased by 41.6%, according to John Williams at Shadow Statistics. And the aggregate amount of interest income collected soared by 111.7%

Say again! During the entire course of 2015 the Fed kept savers lashed to the zero bound, but interest income surged by triple digits?

Even more preposterously, Williams says its new counting methods “upped the number of recipients of money from IRA, Keogh and 401k withdrawals by 419.5%, increasing aggregate income in that area by 230.1%”

Needless to say, raiding your retirement fund is not “income” in the first place; it’s a liquidation of assets that were earned and counted in earlier periods.

That's right. Your interest income more than doubled between 2014 and 2015. You can see it in your bank statement, except that you can't, because it didn't happen. Instead, the Census Bureau started estimating interest income for survey respondents who didn't report any (who answered "Don't Know" on the survey).
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:31 pm

http://www.wealthauthority.com/articles/a-new-harvard-study-shows-serious-economic-problems/

I am disappointed that the article doesn't include a link to the actual Harvard study referenced, but...
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:35 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
The media only reports those figures, but your government collects data on all categories of unemployment, including those who have stopped looking even long after benefits have stopped, part timers looking for full time, etc.
knock yourself out


And why do you suppose the media dutifully reports only the data that makes the administration look good? What happened to investigative journalism?

Ask Donald Trump.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:38 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:http://www.wealthauthority.com/articles/a-new-harvard-study-shows-serious-economic-problems/

I am disappointed that the article doesn't include a link to the actual Harvard study referenced, but...

The lack of linking in such articles is one of my pet peeves.
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Re: Household income is up 5%---its all BS!!==>LIES.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:06 pm

They probably don't want to motivate people to leave their own rag. Took about 5 links to get there. Along the way, a better article with the graphs: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hbs-compe ... 19596.html

.....the study is here, Yahoo is easier to read, Harvard is a pdf : www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/Documents/p ... ivided.pdf
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