Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Fun with supply and demand.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14872
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:39 pm

Very introspective..................good sense of humor too.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Flash
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6001
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Flash » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:15 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Another breakdown of politics and economics might be naturalists vs interventionists, naturalists believing that people will tend to work, create, save, and invest spontaneously; and interventionists who believe that people should be governed in Proudhon's sense of the word:

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so."
--Pierre Proudhon

Well, the naturalists in this scheme of things have been pretty wrong about people. People when left in so called "natural and free" state will actually not create, save, invest and live in peace. They will try to dominate, exploit and kill each other. Not only that, in addition to and in accordance with their destructive tendencies they will also sure as hell do in the other life forms on the planet leaving only a barren, ugly flying rock with the atmosphere of poisoned gas.

Ah, the dreams and illusions of freedom, free will and spontaneous life spawning creativity..."we couldn't be like what Proudhon describes, says Bobbo because we are Westerners, people with a natural desire for freedom. Do you see what has been done to us with clever propaganda? We have even learned how to lie to ourselves with almost a religious conviction.

We have become precisely the society Proudhon has in mind. We are watched all the time. Our police, the so called intelligence agencies, commercial enterprises spy on us all the time. Our gadgets talk to the overlords about what we do and who we are, we need licenses, permits, tickets, approvals for everything. We are being filmed anywhere we go and recognized with the face recognition software. Even at home our laptops can spy on us with a conveniently placed cameras and microphones.

Anywhere we go we are subject to multiplicity of rules, regulations, sorting, valuations. We are being instructed, commanded, prohibited, allowed, disallowed everywhere from our highways through our airports to even such mundane things as public parks and libraries. And talking about indoctrination...how paradoxical it is that we have even successfully indoctrinated ourselves to believe that none of those things are actually happening to us because the lovers of freedom, as what we see ourselves to be, would never allowed those things to happen to us.

The one thing Proudhon, I think, got wrong in this quote is the idea that it has all been done by some singular human agent. There is no one or two or three or more human beings trying to control the human race. We have done it all collectively to ourselves. It's this societal thing that people must do in order to survive. We are limited creatures in a limited Universe. As I mentioned it earlier without it we end up with self generated extinction and a lifeless {!#%@} flying rock around the Sun.
Last edited by Flash on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14872
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:22 am

Hey Flash....I get the dig. So I read it again.....still disagree. The "implication" of the slings and arrows identified is that such activities are at an unjustified therefor intrusive level. I don't think it is. So while ALL those activities do take place, by and large, as society becomes more crowded...its mandatory. when I was a kiddie, the National parks were WIDE OPEN....just walk into the area, build fires, camp and fish as you wish. TODAY...you need a confirmed reservation and a certificate to show the rangers who patrol. I don't like it....but when I hike and camp...I want to see the view....not a gaggle of other people.

But what got my condemnation, was the last phrase beginning with "creatures.".....In short..... of course they do. suggest the alternative that would work.

I note, you have just made TP's day. Pimping for Proudhon's overwrought yet still desiccated pros.....must be surprised to get a bite?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5516
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:22 am

Paul Anthony wrote:If the stock market crashes (as it is prone to do from time to time) trillions of $$ of wealth vanishes as if it never existed. Because it never existed. Money has been replaced by credit. It is not backed by anything real, just as stocks are not backed by genuine fundamentals. Money is created out of thin air by central banks. Wealth is an illusion.


Marx called that kind of wealth "fictitious capital," which seems like a pretty good description.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4388
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:06 am

Since we've abandoned hunter-gather living we have lost our only true freedom: ability to, in theory, survive on your own.
For any obligatory community with labor specialization, a compromise must be made between freedom and convenience. This, luckily, is a very nice trade-off, since living in clusters such as cities brings so many benefits.
Anyone pining for freedom from modern society is a hypocrite who wouldn't survive on their own work only for a single year.

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Paul Anthony » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:46 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Anyone pining for freedom from modern society is a hypocrite who wouldn't survive on their own work only for a single year.


True, but some are seeking smaller communities. Large cities may have some advantages, but I can't think of any. ;)
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4388
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:03 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
Anyone pining for freedom from modern society is a hypocrite who wouldn't survive on their own work only for a single year.


True, but some are seeking smaller communities. Large cities may have some advantages, but I can't think of any. ;)



too bad for you...
cities are and have always been the place of progress for commerce, science and culture. Without cities there is no civilization.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14872
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:39 am

PA==="I can't think......" //// Certainly a dullard at work.

Small cities: in the past, the product of rural environments with additional growth leading to big cities and all that is OBSERVABLE....if you ...................................... Just Look................with the blinders off.

Small cities: TODAY: the product of Big Cities, just one of the many choices available made possible by Big Cities.

Sucks to be a dull wit.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14872
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:43 am

Just watching Roots. Long ago I had the notion for a novel: some aristocrat in england inherits a cotton plantation in the Deep South. He goes there, is appalled by what Roots shows, and according to his OWN Freedom: he sets all the slaves free. Somewhere in the plot, it gets figured out that Black FREEEEEEEEEDOM in the South means all the blacks will get killed if their freeedom is discovered.

What to do?

So....the Master sets up a Faux Plantation. Looks like a Slave State....but everyone is free. Still waiting for the outline of Part Two to occur to me.

total BS....still fun to think about....how skimming systems work and don't work.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Paul Anthony » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:06 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
Anyone pining for freedom from modern society is a hypocrite who wouldn't survive on their own work only for a single year.


True, but some are seeking smaller communities. Large cities may have some advantages, but I can't think of any. ;)



too bad for you...
cities are and have always been the place of progress for commerce, science and culture. Without cities there is no civilization.


There is a population shift - again - in America. City populations are in decline and the suburbs are once again gaining popularity.
City life can be vibrant and exhilarating. It can also be too expensive to live there.
Some in the medical community are reporting the pace of city life bad for one's health, measuring life expectancy and finding higher numbers in rural and suburban areas compared to urban lifestyles.
And then there is crime and poverty.

Cities are great places to be single. I moved to the city after graduation and felt more alive and engaged than before. After getting married and having a child, the city had little to offer - because I had little time for it. We left the city when our son was 5. The city is no place for children.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14872
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:04 pm

Say PA===what do you think of people who LOVE the city for themselves and their kiddies? something "wrong" with them or might it be that there are more values in this world than just yours?

Give it a think.......if you do.....you should eventually realize that people have different values......not just yours....on a whole range of subjects..... if not all them beyond those issues that are something other than values. But I'm getting too abstract.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Give it a think.......if you do.....you should eventually realize that people have different values......not just yours....on a whole range of subjects..... if not all them beyond those issues that are something other than values.


Good advice! Perhaps you should take it, too.

Obviously, some people love city life. Some people love rural life. Some people have never lived anywhere else, but they still think they know best. And, for themselves, they may be right.

I mentioned a trend... more people moving out than in lately. That certainly wasn't meant to imply EVERYONE is leaving the cities, or that they should.
Try reading the words I actually write, not what you want them to mean.

I've chosen to live in suburbia. Close enough to the big city to partake of its offerings when I please, but "far (enough) from the maddening crowds" the rest of the time. It's a personal choice, not for everyone, but a choice shared by 227,000 other folks who live in Gilbert, AZ.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9856
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by TJrandom » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:05 am

Wiki gives your town a nice writeup - looks like a good place to live.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5516
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:17 pm

Tough times for some, but it's always Christmas for the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex:
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/15/l ... /21451367/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11302
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Tough times for some, but it's always Christmas for the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex:
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/15/l ... /21451367/

article wrote:sponsoring legislation that would require the president to certify that any arms sold to Saudi Arabia are not being given to terrorists or used recklessly to kill civilians.

Who else do the Saudis have to shoot at? :scratch:
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9856
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Tough times ahead,........"The Skimming Society"

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:18 am

Better than a certification from the president - given that these advanced weapons are computerized and net/satellite-enabled, why not add a remote activated destruct mechanism (to be used in case of theft, wink, wink) that can be activated if not used in accordance with the sales agreement.