Opinions on Nooalf

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:07 pm

JO 753 wrote:Thats not a fatal flaw, its a feature. There can be a standard spelling that woud be used in formal writing, but it woud be based on the standard pronunciation. Plus, you coud spell az you speak wen you want.

The real standard is the letter=sound relation. Thats wut is missing in regular English that caused it to be such a mess.

A dictionary iz a huje project. Its your idea, so you hav to do it. I can pay you room & board. ( I know 'room' meanz a plase to liv, but I dont know wut 'board' amounts to. Your uniform will be a black monk's robe with a twine belt. Hours are dawn till dusk with a 45 minit break at noon. ^ daze a week and on the Sabbath you will sharpen pensilz, defrazz quillz, clean & blot the press blocks, etc. ) Get cracking! 1st thing iz to learn Nooalf!

You sound like a reasonable person. Listen to constructive feedback, because therein lies any hope you may have of launching your dream. I've clearly outlined the challenges which would have to be met for it to have the slightest chance of succeeding, which do not bear ignoring. Simple perseverance is a good strategy for some things, but not this one.

Once again, good luck.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:57 am

landrew wrote: You sound like a reasonable person....Once again, good luck.


I also think that JO753 is a good person with a personal goal. Although I do not support his ulimate goal, JO753 brings interesting linguistic problems to the forum, as he works through his aims, and that's good fun. No one else brings these sorts of problems here and so it is refreshing to think through some of the sub issues. JO753 seems to accept that ongoing friendly relationship with everyone here. :D

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:36 am

Matt: don't do any work, just from memory, can you mention/describe an interesting linguistic problem JO has brought to the forum?

or Jo yourself?

I love linguistics. Its how we think.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: don't do any work, just from memory, can you mention/describe an interesting linguistic problem JO has brought to the forum? or Jo yourself? I love linguistics. Its how we think.

The most recent topics of interest included voice recognition software and nooalf. In theory if nooalf is a pure phonetic script then it should be easier for voice recognition to convert spoken words to nooalf script, than English spelling. That is a complex question in itself, because of local dialects and other issues. Pragmatically, JO753 may be able to license cheap slightly out of date software, adopt it to nooalf and promote nooalf as a free mobile phone application. If nooalf uses less characters, (which it does) then perhaps JO753 can get hipsters to convert and send nooalf texts. However existing text services possibly can't send JO753's characters? I don't know yet. JO753 may be thinking about this.

It's things like this that are interesting to think about on a pragmatic level.

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:06 am

Pragmatism usually takes things as they are. That touch of realism that grounds pragmatism as opposed to designing software that would work if everyone would change the way they speak. I don't see that as an issue of linguistics but rather of AI software for languarge recognition. different subject.

Interesting to those who find impracticality of interest.

Failure defined: "If everyone would............................"
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:31 am

If youre educated in linguistics, bobbo, it may be harder for you to understand Nooalf. You are essentially dumping it all and starting from square 1.

Occasionally I encounter professorz uv linguistics who favor spelling reform, such az this current comment/debate. Sumtimez they get it, sumtimez its deranjed, incomprehensible evil to them.

Standard linguistics haz alwayz been a hinderans to artificial hearing and speech.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:46 am

Jo...I agree. I'm not educated....just interested. A field of study with some important not obvious truths.

Standard linguistics = reality.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jo...I agree. I'm not educated....just interested. A field of study with some important not obvious truths.


Lucky you! This will go quicker for you then: NQaLF LoJIK

Standard linguistics = reality.


At best, a disadvantajus perspectiv.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:58 am

Thanks. Went there before. A supreme waste of time. Why not recommend Klingon?

HEY!!!---If you like it, go for it. Just as I............won't.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:39 am

You are admitting that your lojik iz based on authority and majority.

Ajent K had sumthing to say about this:

Human thot iz considered a dizeez in sum iv the better galaxyz.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:10 am

How do you make that or any other assumption? I just like what I like. Or...do I even like it as I tend to go with my internal spelling choice rather than any memorization of "the authority."

I already know English, some of some other languages, why "learn" another and for what purpose?

Note: I can't sound out what you last posted, and I assume I'm more flexible than most.

so.....live in your private world and think yourself better than the rest who actually understand what is being said (when THAT happens.)
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:57 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How do you make that or any other assumption?


Its not an assumption. Its the inescapable meaning uv wut you rote:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jo...I agree. I'm not educated....just interested.

+
Standard linguistics = reality.

+
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks. Went there before. A supreme waste of time.

= "Standard linguistics iz interesting to me bekuz I beleev it iz true. Anything that duznt fit with this standard must be false and therefor duz not interest me."

Bleeving sumthing iz true without questioning it iz exactly wut the Skeptic's Society iz agenst.

To be clear, I know therez more to linguistics than orthografy. Their IPA system may serve the purpose uv understanding human speech, but its no good az a spelling system.

I already know English, some of some other languages, why "learn" another and for what purpose?


For starterz, you jumped in here to debate the subject, so you dont want to look like an idiot.

Note: I can't sound out what you last posted, and I assume I'm more flexible than most.


You assume incorrectly. If you cant read that, you are well below average. Usually, peeps who cant read proper Nooalf are victimz uv the Whole Word educational fad. They hav no fonetic awareness at all. Nooalf wuz spesificly dezined to be readable by ordinary averaj adept English readerz. And thats not even Nooalf! Its a mildly fonetisized haf assed modified regular English that I uze to make it very eazy.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:03 pm

Jo
How do you feel about the way your friends in this forum have defended your right to practice Nooalf, but belittled you by saying, "leave him alone, he's harmless."

I agree with your right to pursue your dream, but I tried to offer you constructive criticism instead of just wishing you well.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:19 pm

JO 753 wrote: Usually, peeps who cant read proper Nooalf are victimz uv the Whole Word educational fad.
I personally blame that illiterate bastard, Benjamin Franklin and his fancy pants, colonial, smart-arse tactic of personally insulting the King by changing English spelling, to be more phonetic, He set the precedent, that JO 753 merely follows. :D

Frankly it was a mistake to ever let you American colonialists ever build basic schools. You should have been kept in the fields working and down mines, serving the motherland. Can't you see the linguistic anarchy you Americans bring down onto a planet of sensible English speaking peoples? :D

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:02 pm

Back to the salient points:
  • Spelling in English has become cumbersome and difficult since the language has changed, while the spelling has not.
  • More accurate and simplified spelling is necessary, and eventually it will need to be done.
  • Nooalf is an honest attempt to align spelling with pronunciation, but lacks a systematic approach.
  • Improvised Nooalf is easier to use, only for the one spelling it, and harder for everyone else to comprehend.
  • For Nooalf to be adopted, it requires standardization, everyone would have to learn it and refer to a Nooalf dictionary.
  • Spoken language can not be properly depicted with 26 letters; many unique sounds require additional accents and symbols.
  • Many phonetic systems already exist, which more accurately depict pronunciation than Nooalf.
  • Ebonics was a similar attempt to simplify the language, which has not been successful in becoming dominant.
  • An organized, educational approach (such as conversion to the metric system) would be needed, which has failed in the US.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Poodle » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:36 pm

It's amazing how much people know about how English should be developed.

Here we are, with a number of English versions which have come about through centuries of common usage, each change agreed upon by generations of English users, no matter where they are. Naturally, regional differences have developed as illustrated by the primitives in Australia and America, not to mention a number of other regions which happen to use English. Despite their overwhelming wrongness, those people demonstrate what actually happens to language as it is used in the real universe. It adapts and changes organically rather than by edict. It is a natural thing and any attempt to move away from that naturalism is doomed to failure.

JO does not attempt to change the language - he wants to change the representation of that language. World of difference, even though I don't agree with him at all.

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Austin Harper » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:10 pm

landrew wrote:Back to the salient points:
  • Spelling in English has become cumbersome and difficult since the language has changed, while the spelling has not.
  • More accurate and simplified spelling is necessary, and eventually it will need to be done.
  • Nooalf is an honest attempt to align spelling with pronunciation, but lacks a systematic approach.
  • Improvised Nooalf is easier to use, only for the one spelling it, and harder for everyone else to comprehend.
  • For Nooalf to be adopted, it requires standardization, everyone would have to learn it and refer to a Nooalf dictionary.
  • Spoken language can not be properly depicted with 26 letters; many unique sounds require additional accents and symbols.
  • Many phonetic systems already exist, which more accurately depict pronunciation than Nooalf.
  • Ebonics was a similar attempt to simplify the language, which has not been successful in becoming dominant.
  • An organized, educational approach (such as conversion to the metric system) would be needed, which has failed in the US.

These are all good points. My biggest objection to Nooalf is that it seems that it would be simpler to just use the existing International Phonetic Alphabet rather than inventing a whole new writing system. JO disagrees.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:34 pm

landrew wrote:Jo
How do you feel about the way your friends in this forum have defended your right to practice Nooalf, but belittled you by saying, "leave him alone, he's harmless."


I dont take it az belittlement.

I agree with your right to pursue your dream, but I tried to offer you constructive criticism instead of just wishing you well.


Thanks. And its wut this topic iz for.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:I personally blame that illiterate bastard, Benjamin Franklin and his fancy pants, colonial, smart-arse tactic of personally insulting the King by changing English spelling, to be more phonetic, He set the precedent, that JO 753 merely follows. :D

Frankly it was a mistake to ever let you American colonialists ever build basic schools. You should have been kept in the fields working and down mines, serving the motherland. Can't you see the linguistic anarchy you Americans bring down onto a planet of sensible English speaking peoples? :D


And thats how the British American war uv 2017 got started. A single post in an obscure topic in an internet forum.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:04 pm

landrew wrote:Back to the salient points:
Spelling in English has become cumbersome and difficult since the language has changed, while the spelling has not.

Historicly innaccurate. You shoud read The Story of English to get a reazonably clear understanding uv the events and situationz that got us here.
More accurate and simplified spelling is necessary, and eventually it will need to be done.

The sooner the better.
Nooalf is an honest attempt to align spelling with pronunciation, but lacks a systematic approach.

You still havent looked at the site. How long hav you been saying this?
Improvised Nooalf is easier to use, only for the one spelling it, and harder for everyone else to comprehend.

IF i ROT IN PRoPR NQaLF, NOBUDE HER WuD BoXR REDING IT.
For Nooalf to be adopted, it requires standardization, everyone would have to learn it and refer to a Nooalf dictionary.

Maybe. But if you ever get up the couraje to read the Nooalf Lojik section, you mite understand the flaw in that notion.
Spoken language can not be properly depicted with 26 letters; many unique sounds require additional accents and symbols.

Only 8 more.
Many phonetic systems already exist, which more accurately depict pronunciation than Nooalf.

Incorrect. There are a few, but they are very inefficient; not suitable az a general spelling system. Hav a look: http://www.truespel.com/
Ebonics was a similar attempt to simplify the language, which has not been successful in becoming dominant.

Totally incorrect. It wuz a poorly considered attempt to lijitimize a dialect.
An organized, educational approach (such as conversion to the metric system) would be needed, which has failed in the US.

So youre saying The Gummit needz to fors a conversion? That iz a sure fire way to fail.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:11 pm

Austin Harper wrote:My biggest objection to Nooalf is that it seems that it would be simpler to just use the existing International Phonetic Alphabet rather than inventing a whole new writing system. JO disagrees.


Try typing it. Then try reading it.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:41 pm

Poodle seemz to hav a good grasp uv the situation.

Poodle wrote:It's amazing how much people know about how English should be developed.


It never ceasez to amaze me how you can pik any random Joe Sixpack in a pub, tell him about Nooalf and he will immediately transform into either a Royal Knight in Her Majesty's International Force in Defense of Ye Olde Englishe or an expert on how Nooalf duznt work and all thats needed iz to drop the ough thing. It duznt matter that the subject uv spelling never crossed hiz mind since he dropped outa grammar skool 40 yirz ago and became a forklift driver, he will argue hiz pozition endlessly. Keep going back every week for a decade and he will never buj an inch or even bother reading a word about it.

... It adapts and changes organically rather than by edict. It is a natural thing and any attempt to move away from that naturalism is doomed to failure.


And yet sumhow, a completely unnatural, obviously stoopid spelling system haz been seksesfully enforsed for over 200 yirz. How did they do it?! Or I shoud ask 'How ARE they doing it?'

JO does not attempt to change the language - he wants to change the representation of that language. World of difference, even though I don't agree with him at all.


Yes, but wut iz it you disagree with?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Poodle » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:19 pm

Told you before, JO - there's a whole world of history wrapped up in the spelling.

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:00 pm

Da Nile is a river in Egypt.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:13 pm

And I debunked it befor quite a few timez.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:54 am

Joe: '"Standard linguistics iz interesting to me bekuz I beleev it iz true. Anything that duznt fit with this standard must be false and therefor duz not interest me." //// This thoughtful conclusion is as demonstrably wrong as most of what you post. Standard linguistics is used by me only because I already know it. Its no more "true" than any other symbolic representation, its right there in the word itself: ITS STANDARD. Standard: what most people understand and use. You know what "most people" are ....right? Conversely, a minority of one....isn't even a minority.

I stated why your phoenetic approach does not interest me. I already learned a system used by most people in the world (for advanced topics or international exchange) why learn a language created by one that interferes in the transfer of ideas?

Hobbies are fine. Recognize they are of interest only to like minded people and then, only as a hobby. Fly fishing is said to be a mental tonic for most people. If you like it---do it......but leave your fish guts at home.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Joe: '"Standard linguistics iz interesting to me bekuz I beleev it iz true. Anything that duznt fit with this standard must be false and therefor duz not interest me." //// This thoughtful conclusion is as demonstrably wrong as most of what you post. Standard linguistics is used by me only because I already know it. Its no more "true" than any other symbolic representation, its right there in the word itself: ITS STANDARD. Standard: what most people understand and use. You know what "most people" are ....right? Conversely, a minority of one....isn't even a minority.

I stated why your phoenetic approach does not interest me. I already learned a system used by most people in the world (for advanced topics or international exchange) why learn a language created by one that interferes in the transfer of ideas?

Hobbies are fine. Recognize they are of interest only to like minded people and then, only as a hobby. Fly fishing is said to be a mental tonic for most people. If you like it---do it......but leave your fish guts at home.

Shouldn't you have spelled "true" as "troo" instead?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:44 am

Ha, ha....yes that was to Jo. I don't know myself if Jo has standardized his phoenyetics. In my quick response I did type "duz" rather than "does" and made myself laugh.

Pros and Cons to all we do. Including creating our own special language for our own special world.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:02 am

bobbo & landrew.

If I had to put a name on it, I'd call it fear.

You both seem to be afraid uv Nooalf. You hav alredy spent more time arguing agenst periferal issuez than it woud take to lern the system, bobbo. And landrew, youv been here for 9 yirz and havent even looked at the site!

The best explanation iz that you are afraid that if it got into your brain it woud kill your beluved English and then go after the IPA.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby landrew » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:25 am

JO 753 wrote:bobbo & landrew.

If I had to put a name on it, I'd call it fear.

You both seem to be afraid uv Nooalf. You hav alredy spent more time arguing agenst periferal issuez than it woud take to lern the system, bobbo. And landrew, youv been here for 9 yirz and havent even looked at the site!

The best explanation iz that you are afraid that if it got into your brain it woud kill your beluved English and then go after the IPA.

No Jo, that's not correct. To be honest it's more like mild revulsion, because it entails a great deal more of my brain-cells to engage whenever I try to decipher your Noo-script.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:41 pm

Fear?

Makes as much sense as trying to push phoenyetics on other people:

The individual isolation arising not from the recognition that it is a better system but in refusing to acknowledge the minority view that it is and that social institutions are built on NOT what is better, but rather on what is acceptable/easy/known/used by most people.

but fear? Thats just insipid or reality denial. Why not just say we aren't listening?

Jo==use your personal spelling all you want to, but don't think you are on some high minded crusade. In reality, its just the opposite......and we all put up with it.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The individual isolation arising not from the recognition that it is a better system but in refusing to acknowledge the minority view that it is and that social institutions are built on NOT what is better, but rather on what is acceptable/easy/known/used by most people.


The minorty view amongst cannibalz iz that eating peepl iz bad. Shoud I be a good cannibal if I move to Cannibalistan?

The majority uv the rest uv the human rase believez its bad to eat peepl. Sumhow during history this opinion had a chance to grow. Maybe there wuz a time and plase in wich the debate rajed and it wuz put up for a vote that coud hav gon either way.

Wut if, way bak, cannibalizm wuz the norm in the still small human rase and the noncannibal idea wuz stomped out? Thoze wakkoz became dinner!
Future generationz woud never even hav a choise, even tho they outnumbered that early majority 1,000 to 1.

Lucky for us, we are not in that branch uv reality!

So suppoze the world iz now offered the choise between cannibalizm and noncannibalizm.

but fear? Thats just insipid or reality denial. Why not just say we aren't listening?


Fear. Plain and simple.

You are obviously here debating it wich requirez 'lissening' to wut I rite here. Your only refuje iz to refuze to look at the main body uv lojik and evidens.

Jo==use your personal spelling all you want to, but don't think you are on some high minded crusade.


Arent I? Altho I see opportunity in this, thats not wut its about. Therez a zillion other thingz I coud be spending my time on that are clearly more likely to sekseed.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:42 am

Rare to see: a point by point off point response. I suppose there is an opportunity there as well?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:40 am

I occasionally get emailz with questionz or comments about Nooalf, usually ritten in Nooalf, so it duz seem to be catching on a little.

Sumtimez I do a Google serch to find the new stuff about it. Found this today: Chart in Deviant Art with the new letterz.

Sumbudy in India iz uzing it to teach English, Russian and Italian. Dont know why, but I get a bunch uv vizitorz every month from Russia.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:26 pm

Test post for future reference and subscriber feed updates. Twill read this when I've more time.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:59 pm

I do occasionally find myself using by nature Nooalf type words ... 'twas' instead of 'it was' ... iz instead of is ... just seems to come out more naturally, foneticly speaking.

Or iz it actually phonetically speaking? Meh.

Dependz on ze medium I am using in general, texts I will shorthand in dis kind of style very often.
Forum posts pretty rarely.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby freebill » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:40 pm

jo, have you seen a medical doctor or something?

coz, noaalf might basically be the result of a problem in the brain, such as a migraine attack :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPy-5PRC6Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-QTS739cQw

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:25 am

Yes! I hav seen medical doctorz befor! AND sumthing! Its unkanny! How did you know that?

But I never get hedakes.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:30 am

freebill wrote:jo, have you seen a medical doctor or something? coz, noaalf might basically be the result of a problem in the brain, such as a migraine attack
Hmmm this is simply attacking a member for no reason. I'll chat to Pyrrho. If Freebill is not going to answer any questions and is here simply to attack members, then it is probably time he is given his marching orders.

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby freebill » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:50 am

:D say hi to pyrrho for me :wave:

he personally had apologised to me for your attacks in the past :D

I even hadn't chatted to him; such a thoughtful guy :D
Last edited by freebill on Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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