Opinions on Nooalf

Methods and means of supporting critical thinking in education
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Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:56 am

Check this out and tell me wut you think: www.nooalf.com

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Postby Kiless » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:50 am

First of all, let me tell you that jokes of this sort have been around for a long while. :roll:

In the study of linguistics, we call the efforts to formalise language 'prescription'. It is when we organise language, work towards standardisation and strive to make meaning in the language understood as widely as possible.

What you are proposing in that link challenges certain rather useful aspects of having language constructed in a formal manner -

1) It makes it far more difficult for people whose first language isn't English learn our language,

2) There are already 'pigins' and 'creoles' of English that also strive for standardisation... so to forcibly change it to have a less prescriptive structure is illogical,

3) Such efforts are and will be seen as a sign of illiteracy in English - it is expected that a certain level of grammatical coherency, syntax, pronunciation and coherency in spelling will designate competency (this is also true of other languages you may care to name, even artificial ones like Esperanto),

4) It could possibly be argued that learning a new language in a competent manner will be made more difficult beyond the post-child years (past the age of 7, I believe is beyond simpler language aquisition age) if you don't have an understanding of formal language constructions already. Or at least make it difficult to have competency in both languages?

If you notice how many writers already adhere to prescriptive rules in order to allow their message to be unambiguous, it's actually rather clear how the ability to use language formally is respected by the majority of its users.

The message on your site about how a 'foreigner' would find English difficult to learn in its current guise is a very misleading statement and the solution proposed is false.

If you only consider how there are additional cultural, audience and purposes inherent in every language (indeed, the differences between your culture and mine and we're both writing in English!)... yes, the old saw about 'fifty words for snow in the Eskimo language' is not correct but not that far from the truth for anyone attempting to competently learn an additional language.

Of course, we all 'code switch'. We will always use language differently according to audience, purpose and place. The words I use to my grandmother are not the words I use to the bastard who cut me off at the traffic lights. :oops:

Despite this, you will always find it more empowering to have a formalised language structure in your region that can be readily interpreted across other cultures that also use the language in one dialect or another - rather than this smokescreen called 'Nooalf' that proffers a chaotic pronunciation-based how-to guide.

I sum up in verse:

You say 'potayto',

I say 'potahetoh';

You say 'toamayto',

I say 'tahmahdo'...

'Potayto', 'potahetoh', 'tomayto', 'tahmahdo'...

Let's open a health food shop...


You want to make it more difficult to understand everyone? Be my guest.

I'll be over here reading Lord Byron instead...
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Postby JO 753 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:00 am

Looks like you didnt read much uv it.

Your a teacher. Read the 3rd page.

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Postby Kiless » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:25 am

JO 753 wrote:Looks like you didnt read much uv it.

Your a teacher. Read the 3rd page.


Regarding the third page - http://www.nooalf.com/NQaLF%20PIKsRZ.html - read up on 'THRASS' and the problems they had with phonetics and spelling. Just because the accent in one country is dominant, doesn't mean that other countries will follow.

Therefore having the pronunciation of the word (which as I showed before, will vary widely) indicate the spelling, is the wrong step to take.

Wouldn't matter if I were a tomato or a teacher! Still a silly idea!! :P

('you're' not 'your'..... sheesh...)
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Postby Athon » Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:40 am

What we have is not a true system, but rather a collection of semi-random letter combinations.


I'm still trying to get past this one. It's not a system? It's just spelling using phonetics... a system of letters arranged to give a word.

I'd laugh if it weren't for the fact that somebody out there really thinks this is a clever idea.

I don't think I need to add much to what Kiless has already said. It's far too obvious the inventor this concept has no idea of semiotics or its use in society.

Athon

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Postby Kiless » Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:45 am

No laughing!

Not unless you can spell it using without using the letters 'g', 'l', 'a', 'h', 'i', u' or 'n'! :P
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Postby Tsukasa Buddha » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:49 pm

For some reason I don't think that people coming up with their own alphabets will help foreigners... Would Yankees and Dixies have their own as well?
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Postby ifort » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:21 pm

Aj dont lajk it. :wink:
GOD is REAL unless declared INTEGER.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."
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Postby Athon » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:53 am

Kids I taught back in the UK were half way there anyway. They wrote how they spoke; 'nuffing', 'innit', 'fort' (thought)...

They'd definitely need their own dictionaries. Eastend Creole takes some gettin' used to, innit, yeah?

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Postby JO 753 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:08 am

"Aj dont lajk it"? Esperantified English! That may be wut endz up happening if we dont fix it ourselvez. There are already more people using English az a 2nd language than native userz.

Az skeptics, you should be actively questioning your own opinion on thingz. The only way to do that iz to look at the lojik. Regular English spelling obviously haz very little lojik, so wut makes you believe its not a problem?

Kiless, thats the 2nd page.

You have the false notion that phonetic spelling precludes a standard spelling. There can be standard spellings in Nooalf, and unlike regular English, it can also accurately spell dialects and accents.

Just so I dont end up like the gravity guy, I have to tell you that I am the author uv the Nooalf site. But dont let that restrain your comments.

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Postby Kiless » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:58 am

JO 753 wrote:"Aj dont lajk it"? Esperantified English! That may be wut endz up happening if we dont fix it ourselvez. There are already more people using English az a 2nd language than native userz.

Az skeptics, you should be actively questioning your own opinion on thingz. The only way to do that iz to look at the lojik. Regular English spelling obviously haz very little lojik, so wut makes you believe its not a problem?


I'd like some sources for these assertions you have made:

1) That there are more people using English as a Second Language than native users,
2) That research isn't important when being skeptical,
3) That English spelling 'has very little logic' (I'd suggest the Oxford English dictionary will give you an excellent start in challenging that - suggested reading for today: The Surgeon of Crowthorne: A Tale of Murder,Madness and the Oxford English Dictionary, by Simon Winchester - here's some study questionsand I'd like a 2000 word essay, thank you.... ;) ),
4) Just exactly how much of a 'problem' it is? For whom, exactly? Are you claiming it is a 'problem' for one particular age group, gender, locality, et al?
5) What exactly is it preventing people from doing, if it is such a 'problem'?

There can be standard spellings in Nooalf, and unlike regular English, it can also accurately spell dialects and accents.


Yes, but if I'm outside of your region, will I still understand you?

Are you willing to rewrite the same text (e.g Byron's Letters) in several (if not hundreds or thousands) of different 'accents' in order to get them all published to everyone's satisfaction? That's just one example of a text, mind.

"Tomato, tomato..."

Just so I dont end up like the gravity guy, I have to tell you that I am the author uv the Nooalf site. But dont let that restrain your comments.


I think you may be wasting your time... :( How much study have you done on semantics and linguistics, by the way? Is this just a peer-led revolution?

Some reading for you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2814235.stm
"The only books I can envisage written in text message shorthand would be aimed at the teenage market, if at all. For it would rather spoil the pleasure of reading, having to work out all those abbreviations."
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Postby Kiless » Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:15 am

This might also be of interest - have you considered how slang and words specific to time and region, if not spelt correctly, will confuse people?

This is a classic Australian poem, written in the early 1900s. My Year 9 students had to use a glossary.

http://www.write101.com/cjdennis.htm

For those familiar with the story of Romeo and Juliet, you may like it.

I, sadly, find myself more in the position of 'Tyball' rather than 'Mick Curio' these days. :(

Nex' day 'e words a gorspil cove about
A secret weddin'; an' they plan it out.
'E spouts a piece about 'ow 'e's bewitched:
Then they git 'itched . . .
Now, 'ere's the place where I fair git the pip!
She's 'is for keeps, an' yet 'e lets 'er slip!

...

Aw! Fate me foot! Instid of slopin' soon
As 'e was wed, off on 'is 'oneymoon,
'Im an' 'is cobber, called Mick Curio,
They 'ave to go
An' mix it wiv that push o' Capulets.
They look fer trouble; an' it's wot they gets.

A tug named Tyball (cousin to the skirt)
Sprags 'em an' makes a start to sling off dirt.
Nex' minnit there's a reel ole ding-dong go—
'Arf round or so.
Mick Curio, 'e gets it in the neck,
"Ar rats!" 'e sez, an' passes in 'is check.

Quite natchril, Romeo gits wet as 'ell.
"It's me or you!" 'e 'owls, an' wiv a yell,
Plunks Tyball through the gizzard wiv 'is sword,
'Ow I ongcored! "Put in the boot!" I sez. "Put in the boot!"
"'Ush!" sez Doreen . . . "Shame!" sez some silly coot
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Postby brainfart » Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:36 am

Kiless wrote:I'd like some sources for these assertions you have made:
...


4) Just exactly how much of a 'problem' it is? For whom, exactly? Are you claiming it is a 'problem' for one particular age group, gender, locality, et al?
5) What exactly is it preventing people from doing, if it is such a 'problem'?

...


Hi Kiless.

I know of several people who have said that when reading they have formulated their own wrong pronunciation of words, and kept it for years until they heard it spoken by someone. I've mispronounced "colonel", and a few others in my time.

Whether or not Nooalf would help in that regard, don't know, but there is definitely sense to what you are saying. The language system is as it is for reasons, and those can be understood and much can learned from it if one is willing to spend the amount of time needed learning about it. Wiping out what is actually a type of historic record is not too great an idea maybe.
bltthhhhh

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Postby Kiless » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:47 am

brainfart wrote:Hi Kiless.

Hello! :)
I know of several people who have said that when reading they have formulated their own wrong pronunciation of words, and kept it for years until they heard it spoken by someone. I've mispronounced "colonel", and a few others in my time.


I still spend time to correct my pronunciation of certain words - recently got this book: The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations.

If JO 753 is actually serious about this - why not just use the IPA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... c_Alphabet

Learning the IPA would be very useful if you wanted to work in broadcasting.
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Postby Kiless » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:21 pm

Doctor X wrote:Or just learn to spell.

I am glad there are no actual problems in the world that require attention.

--J.D.


Just got a brochure in the mail today - education dept advertising the changes that happened to the system and trying to drum up support.

I think I'll use it in the next unit on 'propaganda and the media'... :roll:
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Postby Athon » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:54 pm

I'd be interested to see if JO 753 actually has done any work in language history and / or semiotics.

I agree that the English language - arguably more than a number of other languages - has inconsistancies in syntax, grammar and spelling. Much of this can be attributed to a mix of the British Isle's location, the colonisation of other countries by the English in recent centuries, its island-nation status and its patch-work history. However, the flexibility inherent in English has also allowed it to become so widely used.

While it would be lovely to make a universal language system with universal rules, it wouldn't work for several reasons. One is, as Kiless has said, different cultures have different expectations from the language. Most variations in dialect result from this, hence any time a system is universally devised, it will evolve over time between communities anyway.

Another reason why it would fail is that there is no way to enforce a universal set of language rules for one language. You might get as far as having a few groups take it up, however without a social need, it would get no further. And while English has inconsistancies in its rules, it gets on fine in spite of a number of people who regard one form to be more proper than another.

So, while you might think you've happened on the next big thing, there are many reasons why it's a lost cause. Good luck, but I don't think my grandchildren will be writing in Nooalf in the future.

Athon

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Postby Kiless » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:43 pm

Athon wrote:I'd be interested to see if JO 753 actually has done any work in language history and / or semiotics.


To be fair, Athon, I believe that JO 753 is actually a student?

Which is why IPA could be of interest to them and perhaps some looking into the history of language could be an excellent project for them for honours studies or an English extension task.

Perhaps check out local radio stations and see what strategies they use when faced with pronunciation concerns? Maybe even work experience at your community newspaper to get a practical understanding of the importance of grammar and syntax? Proofreading, publishing companies - check out the book 'Eat, Shoots and Leaves' for some wonderful essays!

Sorry - I'm going to bow out of this thread too... some 'lout' sent me something rather special via email and if I want to give informed feedback and follow Doctor X's advice about really making a difference, I'm going to have to get working on it.... :)

K.
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Postby ifort » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:46 pm

Now, I think that phoneticaly spelled languages have their advantages. First, it is only necesary to learn to speak and to read and write down the sounds we use. That does not mean that such language is easy to learn. Sometimes it is the oposite. My own native language is phoneticaly spelled (with two characteristic problems in spelling, and one of them comes mainly from the standardised part of it). I have problems with the spelling in English, but I actualy consider the actual language to be extremly simple.

However, I don't consider Nooalf to be much of a help in learning English. As I have written earlyer in the phonetic spelling of my language: Aj dont lajk it.

And now, just for fun, I'm going to translate the whole post into the phonetic spelling of my language. :twisted:

Nau, aj tink dat fonetikli speld langvidžes hev der advantedžes. Frst, it iz onli nesesari tu lern tu spik end tu riid and vrajt daun d saunds vi juz. Dat doz not min dat sač langvidž iz izi tu lern. Samtajms it is di opozit. Maj oun najtiv langvidž iz fonetikli speld (wid tu karakteristik problems in spelig, end van of dem koms mainli from d standardajzd part of it). Aj hev problems vid d speling in Ingliš, bat aj akćuali consider d akćual langvidž tu bi ekstrimli simpl.

Hauvever, aj dont konsider Nualf tu bi muč of m(this is an unarticualted sound in my language, so I'm using the closest supstitute) help in lrning Ingliš. Ez aj hev vritn arlijer in d fonetik speling of maj langvidž: I don't like it. :twisted:
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Postby JO 753 » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:31 am

Questioning that regular English spelling causes problems surprizez me, especially coming from a teacher. www.childrenofthecode.org
(That URL thing needz sum wrk. cant do copy & paste)

The argument that something woud be lost by changing to a real system duznt work. The orthography iz a major functional part uv our society, not a museum display. It iz technology, just like carz and telephonez. Its not necessary or practical for everybody to be driving Model T replicaz to work every day just to prezerve the history of the motorcar. So why iz having everybody learn and use the relics uv historical accidents that got fossilized 2 or 3 centuries ago acceptable?

Kiless, the biggest practical problem with the IPA iz that the symbolz are horrendous monstrositiez that cant be typed on a normal keyboard with any kind uv speed. The fundamental problem iz that its attempting to reprezent the movements uv our vocal organz rather than wut we hear. Like Blade sed "Sum MFs alwayz gotta ice skate uphill".

Athon, I agree that trying to simplify and standardize the whole language iznt practical or even desirable. English iz the most popular language in history partly bekuz its flexibity keeps it fresh and fit in the constantly changing environment. The fact that its likely to become the only language left in a century or 2 iz why its worth the effort to fix the spelling.

The opposite perspective on that iz equally valid. English got to be the defacto international language by riding the coattailz uv England and Americaz tech, military and pop art dominance. It coud easily looze that pozition if sum other nation with a different language becomez dominant. So getting rid uv its major flaw could be essential to keeping it on top.

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Postby Kiless » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:59 am

JO 753 wrote:Questioning that regular English spelling causes problems surprizez me, especially coming from a teacher. www.childrenofthecode.org
(That URL thing needz sum wrk. cant do copy & paste)


Sorry, where does that site say that your rewriting of English is going to somehow solve dyslexia, et al.?

In my studies of special needs education, I've seen nothing that indicates this argument.

The argument that something woud be lost by changing to a real system duznt work. The orthography iz a major functional part uv our society, not a museum display. It iz technology, just like carz and telephonez. Its not necessary or practical for everybody to be driving Model T replicaz to work every day just to prezerve the history of the motorcar. So why iz having everybody learn and use the relics uv historical accidents that got fossilized 2 or 3 centuries ago acceptable?


It's not fossilised (or shouldn't you be writing 'fozzilized' if you want to really adhere to your system when addressing me?). English is in a state of flux, always has been. But if you are trying to simplify it by actually making it more difficult... my case in point:

Kiless, the biggest practical problem with the IPA iz that the symbolz are horrendous monstrositiez that cant be typed on a normal keyboard with any kind uv speed.



Then I challenge you to type what you have here with replacing the occasional 's' with a 'z' actually speeds up anything you have written.


In fact, SMS language (as my earlier link indicated) would probably be faster if you're aiming for 'speed'.

Takes time to decide which letters you're going to adjust to produce incorrect spelling, doesn't it? ;) What you choose to change isn't going to be the same as other people... 'Fozzilized'...

My suggestion was that you consider how IPA already standardises pronunciations and if you work within an industry that caters for it (or ... just use a pen instead of a keyboard?) you might get some satisfaction in knowing you've adopted a useful strategy. It certainly will be an education that can cater for a future career, rather than making sites that don't appear to have any logical appeal or proper rationalisation... :(

I use IPA in ESL classes, for example. THRASS refers to it. I already mentioned a few careers where knowing it is quite useful.

Like Blade sed "Sum MFs alwayz gotta ice skate uphill".


Fictional characters and their cursing isn't a good substitute for actual research... :roll:

'For man is born to trouble, as the sparks fly upwards,' (Job 5:7), is probably just as accurate.

I'd respond to your rather potentially insulting Anglo-centric points made to Athon, but I think I'd be wasting more of my time. :(
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Postby Athon » Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:50 am

JO 753 wrote:Questioning that regular English spelling causes problems surprizez me, especially coming from a teacher.


It causes problems if there are conflicts in conveying meaning. Semiotics is the study of encoding information, and requires both the transmitter and the receiver of the code to recognize the code's value, and this value to remain consistent. Hence, for spelling, it's a matter of flexible literacy. The 'poor spelling' is often consistent amongst adolescents who find it easier to adopt their own rules. Those rules work in their own community, however outside of this is where the problems arise.

Devising a new 'phonetic' system would encounter the same problems. If it is not consistent over a wide variety of communities, the literacy issues would not really be addressed.

The argument that something woud be lost by changing to a real system duznt work. The orthography iz a major functional part uv our society, not a museum display. It iz technology, just like carz and telephonez. Its not necessary or practical for everybody to be driving Model T replicaz to work every day just to prezerve the history of the motorcar. So why iz having everybody learn and use the relics uv historical accidents that got fossilized 2 or 3 centuries ago acceptable?


Because they are the accepted codes. Like it or not, that's simply the case.

Dialects exist, and have to be respected. Literacy is the ability to move between different types of code. There is no 'standard' English, however there are variances in its encoding which need to be respected simply because those rules are already in common practice.

Implenting a system because it appears easier is therefore naive. A simple way of looking at it is that if a basic phonetics system was indeed more efficient, English in all its forms would be heading that way. The fact that it isn't indicates that the idea has no merit.

Athon, I agree that trying to simplify and standardize the whole language iznt practical or even desirable. English iz the most popular language in history partly bekuz its flexibity keeps it fresh and fit in the constantly changing environment. The fact that its likely to become the only language left in a century or 2 iz why its worth the effort to fix the spelling.


The last sentence is incredibly ignorant, don't you think?

Present dialects of English will continue to evolve as they are subjected to varying cultural stresses. New words will be included, syntax will change in different cultures, and what we will end up with is a conflated melange of English-based dialects with pockets of Creole and Native languages. That is a far cry from saying that modern English will be the only language left.

Language does not work how you seem to think it works. By simplifying it down as you have, you've missed the essence of literacy and semiotics.

The opposite perspective on that iz equally valid. English got to be the defacto international language by riding the coattailz uv England and Americaz tech, military and pop art dominance. It coud easily looze that pozition if sum other nation with a different language becomez dominant. So getting rid uv its major flaw could be essential to keeping it on top.


Wow. I don't even know where to begin with this assumption. 'Wrong' is an understatement.

I'm beginning to suspect, however, that it might be a lost cause to even begin discussing this with you if you haven't a grasp of the basics of language development.

Athon

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Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:25 am

"WUT WE HaV HEU.....IZ FALEU......TU KUMYQNIKAT."
50 quatlooz to the 1st person to correctly identify that quote.

A few random responsez:

Kiless and Athon, I can see that you have the perspective that language is something that evolvez on its own, like some sort of animal, and that its evolution can only be studied, not influenced.

This iz not the case. English gets warped by every chowderhed with a microphone & audience who comez up with a catchy new twist on an old word. Evolution impliez advantagous change. English iz adapted, twisted, degenerated, infused in an entirely uncontrolled manner. The good with the bad, the smart with the stupid. Wutever becomez popular long enuff gets into the dictionary. I have no problem with that.

The only thing that duznt change anymore iz the spelling. It got fossilized by the original dictionary publisherz somewhen around 1600 I think. Ever since then, our educational systemz have been artificially linking 'correct' spelling to intelligence, wich helps maintain the fossilization.

My perspective iz that spelling iz technology that can be refined or completely reinvented to work better. The orthographiez uv several other languagez have been successfully replaced in the past. Spanish, Korean and Bosnian are good examplez.

You don't think English iz taking over? Therez an organization called the Rosetta Project thats dedicated to prezerving all the languagez that go extinct every year. Even some major languagez are loozing population. My gess iz that a form uv English with major components uv Chineze and Spanish/Portuegese will be wuts left by 2200.

Even though you 2 are arguing against it, I dont think you can seriously believe that there iz no advantage to a system that enablez nearly anybody to spell the entire language after only a month uv study & practice. And I dont think you reeeellly believe regular English spelling makes any sense.

Kiless, I have never heard anybody pronounce it 'FOZILiZD' ( I used Nooalf there so you could actually read the soundz ). I am generally doing a few casual phonetic correctionz here, not much real Nooalf spelling. The letter S making the Z sound just happenz to be the most obvious violation.

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Postby HghrSymmetry » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:33 am

Sadly, my "list" is getting longer.

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Postby Athon » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:53 am

JO 753 wrote:Kiless and Athon, I can see that you have the perspective that language is something that evolvez on its own, like some sort of animal, and that its evolution can only be studied, not influenced.


Um, two different claims you're stating here.

The former, yes. Look up 'memetics' some time. Culturally adopted behaviours such as language can indeed evolve, much like the evolutionary process that causes a chaotic system of coding such as genes to evolve. Basically, in fact, any time you have a changing system where some variations remain over others in relation to a stress, you'll have 'evolution'. Fascinating stuff, no?


To the latter, somewhat. The evolution of a meme such as language can be influenced intentionally, but it would take a lot of effort. Such 'memetic engineering' takes understanding the process, though, and influencing it. Not just randomly suggesting a new meme should be taken up.

This iz not the case. English gets warped by every chowderhed with a microphone & audience who comez up with a catchy new twist on an old word. Evolution impliez advantagous change. English iz adapted, twisted, degenerated, infused in an entirely uncontrolled manner. The good with the bad, the smart with the stupid. Wutever becomez popular long enuff gets into the dictionary. I have no problem with that.


A language evolves when a variation occurs which is associated with a begavioural advantage of some form. Sure, phonetic alterations can occur naturally and even be influenced to an extent, however for reasons already mentioned, it is not a simple matter of recommending a new method of spelling en masse.

The only thing that duznt change anymore iz the spelling. It got fossilized by the original dictionary publisherz somewhen around 1600 I think. Ever since then, our educational systemz have been artificially linking 'correct' spelling to intelligence, wich helps maintain the fossilization.


And with that claim, I can conclusively say you have not one clue about what you're talking about. Never studied the history of languages, memetics, cultural evolution and behaviours...

Language has changed massively since the 1600's in terms of spelling. Grab yourself a document written from that period and check it out.

French influence on Anglicized spelling is a classic example, giving us variations such as 'colour' and funny ways of pronouncing words. It occured when it was more vogue to demonstrate a 'continental' education, hence accent words traditionally spelt more phonetically.

So, there you go. Blame the French. :)

My perspective iz that spelling iz technology that can be refined or completely reinvented to work better. The orthographiez uv several other languagez have been successfully replaced in the past. Spanish, Korean and Bosnian are good examplez.


With pressures that differed greatly from some random person suggesting a change.

You don't think English iz taking over? Therez an organization called the Rosetta Project thats dedicated to prezerving all the languagez that go extinct every year. Even some major languagez are loozing population. My gess iz that a form uv English with major components uv Chineze and Spanish/Portuegese will be wuts left by 2200.


You're either intentionally or stupidly misreading what I said. Read it again.

Even though you 2 are arguing against it, I dont think you can seriously believe that there iz no advantage to a system that enablez nearly anybody to spell the entire language after only a month uv study & practice. And I dont think you reeeellly believe regular English spelling makes any sense.


Again, you're not reading what we said, and you're misrepresenting it. We don't think it's a system which offers a great advantage as there is great variation in English dialects. As for English spelling making sense, it only makes sense in the context of history.

The changes you're suggesting are impractical at best, and unnecessary at worst.

Athon

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Postby Pyrrho » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:15 pm

George Bernard Shaw had some opinions on spelling, IIRC.
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Postby Kiless » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:00 pm

Jim Dominic wrote:George Bernard Shaw had some opinions on spelling, IIRC.


Wot, you mean 'Why can't the English / Learn to speak?' :P
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Postby Pyrrho » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:27 pm

Kiless wrote:
Jim Dominic wrote:George Bernard Shaw had some opinions on spelling, IIRC.


Wot, you mean 'Why can't the English / Learn to speak?' :P

I found a good page about Shavian alphabets and would post that link here, except the page features a very intrusive popup that tries to run software on my computer--and I have popups blocked. Basically, it reproduces Shaw's preface to Wilson's The Miraculous Birth of Language.
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Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:11 pm

I'd gess that it wuz trying to install a Unifon font on your computer, Jim. Unifon iz a reformed spelling thats similar to Nooalf.

Athon, your example uv why we shoud blame the French seemz to indicate that you dont know much about the history uv English.

"French influence on Anglicized spelling is a classic example, giving us variations such as 'colour' and funny ways of pronouncing words. It occured when it was more vogue to demonstrate a 'continental' education, hence accent words traditionally spelt more phonetically. "

They took over England and systematically eradicated the existing spelling system, then imposed their own spelling on the English language. Blame the French indeed! They get practically ALL the blame. A distant 2nd place goes to Dutch printing press operators who spoke little or no English randomly adding letterz to fill in lines of typeset.

But in my opinion, we get the blame for not fixing thingz since then. (everybody besides me & my fellow reformerz, such az George Bernard Shaw, Theodore Roosevelt, Ben Franklin, George Dewey)

I gess 1600 wuz before dictionaries started getting circulated. I dont profess to be good at history. Wenever, man! FOSSILIZED!

But all thats just water under the bridge. We cant continue to be victimz uv history.

Doc X. I'm working on "Incubus 2: The Bloodening" and "Incubus vs. Alien" starring William Shatner. Both will be in Esperanto and English with Nooalf Esperanto/English/italian/Spanish subtitlez.

Judging frum the response I'm getting here, I think I'm going to need a page for Ludites on the website. The old site had a section titled 'Krazy JO'z Bad Lojik Skeet Shooting Club' that had all the arguments against change with rebutalz. I liked it, but the sawed off shot gun with a scope didnt go over well with the PTA .

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Postby Kiless » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:19 am

Jim Dominic wrote:I found a good page about Shavian alphabets and would post that link here, except the page features a very intrusive popup that tries to run software on my computer--and I have popups blocked. Basically, it reproduces Shaw's preface to Wilson's The Miraculous Birth of Language.


Is this better? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/ShawPreface.htm

Ah, there's this too: http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shaw.htm
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Postby clarsct » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:36 am

Write a resume in Nooalf.

I can predict you how many callbacks you receive. Care to wager?


Try writing anything in it. This is why it fails, it fails what people EXPECT to see. It is coded wrong, to steal a page from Athon's notebook. I've wondered why your spelling was so horrid, and I thought it was just because you were a teenager. Now I know.

Oh, and English is the result of a drunken Norsemen trying to speak Welsh to a Frenchman.
Once you realize this, the rest falls into place.
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Postby MajorityofOne » Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:54 pm

to Dr. X: That's just stupid!

To the green-eyed monkey boy: I don't read your posts because I don't have the time. I'm a fast reader when things are spelled correctly because I'm familiar with a word without having to stop and try to figure out how it's pronounced, so I just skip your stuff 'cause I don't have the time or the inclination. I read your first one on this because it was short, but didn't read any of the others. Just FYI
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Postby MajorityofOne » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:01 pm

Kiless wrote:
('you're' not 'your'..... sheesh...)


Thanks for this. It bothers me as well. Also:

Its = possessive (It has its own food.)
It's = it is (It's time to go to lunch.)

You're = you are (You're a good boy.)
Your = possessive (It's your food.)

Why is this so darn difficult???
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Postby MajorityofOne » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:47 pm

You get a biscuit.
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Postby Kiless » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:06 pm

Now I'm lost. Is there even an initial topic to get back to? :oops:
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Postby Tsukasa Buddha » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:20 pm

Oh, and what about words that are pronounced the same way, yet have different meanings? Genes and jeans? But and butt? Or and oar (there can also be more depending on the dialect)? Under Nooalf they would be spelled the same way.
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Postby DeusEx_Humana » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:13 pm

I think trying to top-down construct languages is silly, it never happens.

Language evolves all the time, but it evolves as to how people just naturally use it.

My prediction - "Smileys" :) will enter the language officially within 5-10 years as a word, people are already using it that way. Just try and stop people from using smileys!

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Postby JO 753 » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:37 pm

Tsukasa, its like that & even worse with regular English anyway. Lead lead, read, read, for example. You dont have any problem understanding speech, do you? Reading Nooalf iz the same az listening to speech.

clarsct, I'd be more likely to get a response frum a resume written in Nooalf, but it woud be to ask "Wut the hell iz this?" Why dont you try reading the website. Download the 2NQ4YQ font and then you can see how Nooalf really looks.

Major. Wut? Are you a mid 1900z English school marm? I 'know how to spell' at least az well az the average PhD, I just dont like to participate in supporting nonsense. Nobody haz the right to criticize spelling until they can spell all the words in the entire language, including trade jargon. Give the Guiness Book guyz a call when your dun memorizing it all, bekuz you will be the 1st.

I'll make easy for you to read the next part.

You are all very critical of this, yet apparently haven't bothered to read and understand the few pages of the website. All I'm seeing here so far is knee jerk reactions. I don't expect anybody to like it, but I think you should be able to see the advantages. At least come up with better arguments against it.

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Postby Kiless » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:09 am

JO 753 wrote:You are all very critical of this, yet apparently haven't bothered to read and understand the few pages of the website. All I'm seeing here so far is knee jerk reactions. I don't expect anybody to like it, but I think you should be able to see the advantages. At least come up with better arguments against it.


Actually, the reverse is true. I read the whole thing. I'd expect the same regard in return, but I guess that's too much to hope for.

You haven't bothered to read and understand our posts on why you're wrong. 'Knee jerk' indeed.

That you don't see the disadvantages and instead dismiss the criticisms outright or don't address them.

That you don't even realise the logic of our arguments which are based on more than mere opinion and what appears to be a rather antagonistic attitude towards teachers of English (is there someone at your school who is giving you a hard time about your grammar or performance in class?).

In fact, you don't even appear to have done any serious study of language (is there a source for that quote you threw in, for a start?).

I suggest that you have another reread of everything that people have written. Until then, I for one am done with you as this is clearly a waste of more time.
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Postby JO 753 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:04 am

OK, so tell me. What disadvantages?

I've read everything. I haven't responded to a lot of things, mainly because they were missing the point. Pretty much anything that refers to the study of language is a non sequitur. You didn't even get to Etymology.

For a start, what quote?

What you aren't getting is that it's easier to memorize 34 letters than 34,000 groups of letters and the difference is ruining lives and costing us all hundreds of billions of dollars.

Brainfart and ifort seem to get the main idea. Why can't you?

We often forget how much time and effort we have devoted to learning what we know. It then surprises us when someone has a hard time understanding the basics of our subject. This applies both ways here. I have a hard time believing that you think English spelling isn't crap and you don't see a problem with millions of kids and foriegners spending years instead of weeks learning it. English majors are often the most strident objectors to Nooalf.

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Postby JO 753 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:11 am

P.S. I'm not a teenager or a student.


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