English multitopic

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English multitopic

Postby Monster » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:26 pm

I made this thread for various English questions.

And I want to start with this.

What do you use for the past tense of the verb "pet", as in petting an animal.

a. pet
b. petted

I use "pet", but I'm not 100% sure it's correct.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:46 pm

It's "petted". People have analogised the past tense to "pet" via other words like "set", "bet", and "let", but the proper form is "petted".

You can even get the sense of the "wrongness" of if you phrase your sentence in this way:

"The dog enjoys being petted."
"The dog enjoys being pet."

See: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/pet.html
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:24 pm

Gord's spot on.

Most people would chicken out and say 'stroked'.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:02 pm

I actually say "pet" even though I know it's wrong. Then I laugh, and nobody knows why. It's one of my many "inside jokes" that I make for myself alone 'cause I like to laugh at them and other people don't -- if I told them what I was laughing at, they'd just tell me it wasn't funny and look at me even weirder than they already do ('cause I'm laughing and they don't know why).

Like this: "Heh heh. 'Butterscotch'." :heh:
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:58 pm

Gord wrote:It's "petted". People have analogised the past tense to "pet" via other words like "set", "bet", and "let", but the proper form is "petted". You can even get the sense of the "wrongness" of if you phrase your sentence in this way:

"The dog enjoys being petted."
"The dog enjoys being pet."


OK. I think this all makes sense. I see that it is OK to use the word "pat". I always thought the word was "pat" rather than "pet". I may be wrong, but I thought it was "pat" because you "pat down a suspect" in police TV shows.

If I go to an etymology website, I see the word "pat". I am now wondering if "pet" and "pat" are slightly different words and I simply didn't know.


pat (v.)
1560s, "to hit, throw;" meaning "to tap or strike lightly" is from 1714; from pat (n.). Related: Patted; patting. The nursery rhyme phrase pat-a-cake is known from 1823. Alternative patty-cake (usually American English) is attested from 1794 (in "Mother Goose's Melody, or Sonnets for the Cradle," Worcester, Mass.).

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:12 pm

Gord wrote:I actually say "pet" even though I know it's wrong. Then I laugh, and nobody knows why. It's one of my many "inside jokes" that I make for myself alone 'cause I like to laugh at them and other people don't -- if I told them what I was laughing at, they'd just tell me it wasn't funny and look at me even weirder than they already do ('cause I'm laughing and they don't know why).

Like this: "Heh heh. 'Butterscotch'." :heh:


...more weirdly ...

:roll:

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gord wrote:It's "petted". People have analogised the past tense to "pet" via other words like "set", "bet", and "let", but the proper form is "petted". You can even get the sense of the "wrongness" of if you phrase your sentence in this way:

"The dog enjoys being petted."
"The dog enjoys being pet."


OK. I think this all makes sense. I see that it is OK to use the word "pat". I always thought the word was "pat" rather than "pet". I may be wrong, but I thought it was "pat" because you "pat down a suspect" in police TV shows.

If I go to an etymology website, I see the word "pat". I am now wondering if "pet" and "pat" are slightly different words and I simply didn't know.


pat (v.)
1560s, "to hit, throw;" meaning "to tap or strike lightly" is from 1714; from pat (n.). Related: Patted; patting. The nursery rhyme phrase pat-a-cake is known from 1823. Alternative patty-cake (usually American English) is attested from 1794 (in "Mother Goose's Melody, or Sonnets for the Cradle," Worcester, Mass.).


All of which would still make the past participle 'patted'. The only p-t word this doesn't work with is 'put'. Unless you're a golfer. But then you'd be starting with 'putt' anyway.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Austin Harper » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:36 pm

It drives me people when people say text (or maybe it's tex'ed) as the past tense of to text, eg "I text Bob earlier and he said he's coming to dinner."
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Yeah - it drives me people too.

(Yeah - done it myself, Austin).

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:06 am

That's what I get for trying to post using my phone.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:32 am

Language is not logical as it arose "organically" from custom and usage. The "rules" establish only majority uses or trends. Its mostly group identification and experiential.

I used to care a whole lot more than I do now. Now.......... its not even interesting. Current usage, the right and wrong of it. What is still fascinating to me is the etymology of the different words. Lots of history and culture bound up in the evolution and change of our words.

Making a "good" dictionary a pleasurable read in itself. Short reads, not a tear (sic?).
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:40 am

Bobbo, you iconoclast!

The 'rules' establish common comprehension. That's where the history and culture lie.

"The "rules" establish only majority uses or trends. Its mostly group identification and experiential". Well, precisely. Uvverwize, fingz forl apart, no wot I mean?

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:45 am

Yes..... and there is total comprehension when using either pet or petted, or even pat or patted==or stroked. Thats my whole point.

Your lapse into Jo speak demonstrates an entirely different issue. Everything is a matter of degree. Some things count, other don't, many are in the middle. Some can't follow an argument.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:48 am

So, in comprehensible English is the reason for our commonality?

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:52 am

Poodle wrote:So, in comprehensible English is the reason for our commonality?


Did you mean to bifurcate and cleverize your challenge? Ha, ha. Of course, in both furcations, English is part of our commonality. Part of the cause as well. Same for the French, Italians, etc.

totally bored to dither so?
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:02 am

No, not bored, bobbo - it's one of my interests. Not aggressive either, as it's just one of my interests. But I'm really interested in the fact that you understood that there was, indeed, a bit of a challenge in my post. How could you possibly have understood that if "there is total comprehension when using either pet or petted, or even pat or patted==or stroked. Thats my whole point"?

Obviously not as, by your own admission, you recognise that a loosening of language rules gives rise to confusion. From my post (and my post alone) can you possibly say what I meant if normally accepted grammatical rules were done away with?

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:34 am

Poodle wrote: But I'm really interested in the fact that you understood that there was, indeed, a bit of a challenge in my post. How could you possibly have understood that if "there is total comprehension when using either pet or petted, or even pat or patted==or stroked. Thats my whole point"?

Obviously not as, by your own admission, you recognise that a loosening of language rules gives rise to confusion.

A question rather than acquiescence or submission is almost always a challenge regardless of what other innocent motives may exist.

From my post (and my post alone) can you possibly say what I meant if normally accepted grammatical rules were done away with?
Because as I expressly stated, I took what I saw to be the two opposite possible meanings and followed the logic of both.

I'll demonstrate: "is xxxx that results in the death of all mankind a good thing or not?" //// You don't know what xxxx is, but you can conclude its not a good thing.

Obviously not as, by your own admission, you recognise that a loosening of language rules gives rise to confusion.
I said just the opposite: its a matter of degree. Sadly, being grammatically correct often does not avoid miscommunication. Language is like that. Hoomans are like that.

Easy.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:14 am

Poodle wrote:
Gord wrote:I actually say "pet" even though I know it's wrong. Then I laugh, and nobody knows why. It's one of my many "inside jokes" that I make for myself alone 'cause I like to laugh at them and other people don't -- if I told them what I was laughing at, they'd just tell me it wasn't funny and look at me even weirder than they already do ('cause I'm laughing and they don't know why).

Like this: "Heh heh. 'Butterscotch'." :heh:


...more weirdly ...

:roll:

Disagree! :nyaah:
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:20 am

I hate it when people shorten "microphone" to "mic" instead of to "mike". Do they also shorten "bicycle" to "bic" and "tricycle" to "tric"?

Incidentally, the word "dike" comes from the Old English word "dic". To me, this "-ic" to "-ike" and back to "-ic" implies a backward trend in the development of language.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:03 am

There is no "direction" in language development. Not even a slow increase in number of words. What I recall from somewhere: "Each language is sufficient for its own needs." English is unique in world languages for the Historical and accidental cultural influences that created such diversity and precision. Mostly the Anglo/Saxon, formal/informal, legal/non legal, church/state divisions that formed but where both kept.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There is no "direction" in language development. Not even a slow increase in number of words. What I recall from somewhere: "Each language is sufficient for its own needs." English is unique in world languages for the Historical and accidental cultural influences that created such diversity and precision. Mostly the Anglo/Saxon, formal/informal, legal/non legal, church/state divisions that formed but where both kept.


I doubt that English is unique for those attributes... common, may be a better discription.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:38 am

Could be. Wouldn't having the most words in a language be unique by definition? Unique: the only one (with the most words).

Edit: I googled (language with most words in the world)==and its a mess. Fun to read for a few facts included: http://www.lingholic.com/how-many-words ... ng-part-2/
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Monster » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:03 pm

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There is no "direction" in language development. Not even a slow increase in number of words. What I recall from somewhere: "Each language is sufficient for its own needs." English is unique in world languages for the Historical and accidental cultural influences that created such diversity and precision. Mostly the Anglo/Saxon, formal/informal, legal/non legal, church/state divisions that formed but where both kept.


I doubt that English is unique for those attributes... common, may be a better discription.

Unique! Not at all. Russian, for example, has Mongol and English words in it.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:41 pm

Monster: you mean that by law in certain cases and almost universally by custom, in Russian you have to give the Russian term followed by the Mongol term in order to follow the norm?

EG: to have and to hold, or .... hereby lease and sub-let....etc.

Besides, I emphasized that English is unique in have more words, more combos. With English, you get Anglo, Saxon, Norman, viking, Dutch, German, Latin ...blah, blah. Of course all language has roots.

Not anything to argue about. ////////Edit: that came off more dismissive perhaps than I meant. I posted above the issue is "a mess." Point being as the link talks about, there is no set way to measure the number of words. The etymology of words is interesting....regardless of language. I just follow English, as I know it the best.... misuse notwithstanding.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:24 pm

I also doubt that English has more words.... Certainly English adopts foreign words easily - but so does Japanese, and I suspect so does many languages - except possibly those where a central authority somehow clamps down, or where a population is isolated. Japanese has several indigenous languages, a massive influx of Chinese, then Korean, English, German, etc. Words get added from foreign sources, and are newly generated as a need arises. I have never experienced a case where one needed to switch languages in order to describe or discuss something. Of course I may not know a word in either language, but with just a bit of research I can generally find it.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:41 pm

Why do you doubt TJ? Do you think languages are like the humanity loving world religions: all the same?? Or are there similarities in the main but also SOME DIFFERENCES?

No need to switch languages huh? Famous example everyone knows: Eskimo has 50 different words to describe snow. Can you do that with the same transfer of knowledge in English or any other language? Or how about some arabic language having 35 words to describe camels? Each language sufficient for its own needs? Hawaiian for wind and wave action???

........and so forth.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:59 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why do you doubt TJ? Do you think languages are like the humanity loving world religions: all the same?? Or are there similarities in the main but also SOME DIFFERENCES?

No need to switch languages huh? Famous example everyone knows: Eskimo has 50 different words to describe snow. Can you do that with the same transfer of knowledge in English or any other language? Or how about some arabic language having 35 words to describe camels? Each language sufficient for its own needs? Hawaiian for wind and wave action???

........and so forth.


I see... Yes, on a particular topic, some languages may indeed have more words. Good examples. But I was thinking of a language overall - English in total, or Japanese in total.

If I wanted to express the same 50 different descriptions for Eskimo`s snow when speaking in Japanese, I would likely need to adopt (and modify for easy pronunciation) those Eskimo words into Japanese - adding to the number count of Japanese.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:09 pm

TJ===given all the variables, why do you think one language may or should have more words than another? Once you identify those variables, then apply to English vs Japanese or any other. Or...do all languages have the same exact number of words....as you say: overall?

Know what I mean?
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ===given all the variables, why do you think one language may or should have more words than another? Once you identify those variables, then apply to English vs Japanese or any other. Or...do all languages have the same exact number of words....as you say: overall?

Know what I mean?


I don`t think one language should have more words than another, overall. That was my point. Nor do I contend that they have the same number of words. Instead, if they are open to adoption of ideas and words, then they can have all they need.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There is no "direction" in language development.

There is a "time" direction in the development of anything.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:53 pm

I want someone to write an essay explaining how the number of words in a language's vocabulary is important and then apply the same logic to real German words like "Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz"

As my hobby is German military machines, I already have to struggle with long compounded German words. It works, in regards to conveying information, but I'd hate to encipher a hand written field report describing each vehicle in a armoured squad.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:03 pm

Long German words?

Try floccinaucinihilipilification - a perfectly good English word which may get used once, maybe, in a century.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:48 pm

Poodle wrote: Try floccinaucinihilipilification - a perfectly good English word which may get used once, maybe, in a century.
Don't try your cunning antidisestablishmentarianism tricks on me, young man! :D

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:36 am

Why is "short" longer than "long"? And why does "monosyllabic" have so many syllables?
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:39 am

Please allow me to give two examples of English loan words entering the Japanese language.

Our cell phones were known as `keitai`, and this is still in usage. But when `smart phones` came along, in Japanese they became `sumafo`. (smart phone) Then to further distinguish and denigrate owners of keitai, they became known as `garakei` among the younger generation. The `gara` was borrowed from Galapagos, as in the Galapagos Islands – meaning ancient, un-evolved, etc. And the `kei` was shortened from the original `keitai`.

As you can see, these are not English words – but rather borrowed roots modified to fit the existing language – so are truly new Japanese words. I am sure that similar additions also occur in English and other languages...

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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:00 am

TJrandom wrote:I don`t think one language should have more words than another, overall.
What the frick does "should" mean in this context? Did you read ANYTHING posted above??????? "All languages are sufficient for their own needs." Do you think 15 islanders in the middle of the Pacific "SHOULD HAVE" as many words as an island nation of 50 people? ( :idea: ) snark!! ...........ok....... as many words as a highly technical country of 1.4 Billion?

TJrandom wrote:Nor do I contend that they have the same number of words.
Yep, that was another snarky comment of mine trying to get you to recognize the assumptions you make .... If one language shouldn't have more worlds than another, then wouldn't all languages have the same number????? You fail in math as well as linguistics.

TJrandom wrote: Instead, if they are open to adoption of ideas and words, then they can have all they need.
Why should anyone but Eskimos be open to adopting 50 words for snow? ...................... OK......................Laplanders. You got me there.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:01 am

TJrandom wrote:Please allow me to give two examples of English loan words entering the Japanese language.
My review of 1940's English/Japanese translation books can explain some of the confusion.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:07 am

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There is no "direction" in language development.

There is a "time" direction in the development of anything.

Time has no direction with regard to language. In what I have to guess you mean, languages grow and shrink according to circumstances other than the passage of time.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
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Matthew Ellard
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Why should anyone but Eskimos be open to adopting 50 words for snow? ...................... OK......................Laplanders. You got me there.


It the legacy of their language's evolution to become "efficient" in that particular environment. The overall theory is called the Sapir Worf theory of ethno-semantics.
http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~johnca/spc ... -sapir.htm

One element of the theory is that two people from different cultures cannot fully exchange the meaning of particular words evolved in one particular cultural environment.

On our forum, Gorgeous and Freebill claim "aliens" are giving us words of wisdom about love, spirituality and so on. Obviously, under the theory, an alien wouldn't have a clue what humans love or spirituality is.
That's a simple reason you know this "alien advice" is complete crap.

Matthew Ellard
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: English multitopic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Time has no direction with regard to language. In what I have to guess you mean, languages grow and shrink according to circumstances other than the passage of time.
Read both parts of "1984" the book. The first part is the fictional novel. The second part is a deep discussion on the state using language manipulation to control people's thoughts. It is also a good general discussion on the evolution of language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak


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