Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

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Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 28, 2018 10:10 pm

The Pakistani megacity of Karachi, home to more than 20 million people, is among the most water-stressed cities in the world,.............

Short read: https://earther.com/this-coastal-megaci ... 1821950015

the other place in the news is Cape Town South Africa.

My town Sacramento, California has come through about a 5 year drought with second year of good rain filling up our local dams. Water quality good enough to be bottled straight from the tap. I feel blessed every time I turn on the tap and their is "....♫...cool, clean...water..."

Not clean in the link is where people are actually getting the water they need. Trucked in water....from where? Implication is from the nearest other river system, but not stated.

I'm noticing more and more articles regarding water shortages and not just like the Aral Sea going dry because of a choice to use its water for farming instead of fishing.......but because of Climate Change, Population Growth, and most interestingly: the decisions of Governments to spend money on any other thing than basic services: as long as the 1% have theirs: the poor can put up with the trickle down NOTHING we give them. Most favorite issue is South American governments selling local water rights to Nestles Int'l Big Co for bottling and they take all the water and the citizens now have to buy water from the private source. You know": the benefits of capitalism.

I take pleasure in the simple things. Its not going to last forever.........
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 29, 2018 3:00 am

3,000 years ago, farmers in Persia were suffering from lack of water. With nothing more than bronze tools, they dug underground canals from the Persian mountains to carry water to the plains. Had to be underground to stop it all evaporating. Each canal had regular air holes to the surface. They were called qanots.

The fact is that humanity has had a lack of fresh water throughout history and prehistory. We have learned many new ways to manufacture and transport fresh water, and kinda kept up with demand. That is true by definition, because if we could not, the population would be smaller. Strong limits on fresh water supply would kill a lot of people.

The process of learning new ways continues. Science Daily recently had an item on a new membrane that cut the energy cost of desalination. I predict that fresh water will remain a limiting factor, but humanity will kinda keep up with demand by continuing to innovate.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue May 29, 2018 3:30 am

The point is that nuclear power is the wrong energy for places with low water tables.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 29, 2018 3:51 am

EM===thats not the point, but I appreciate the humor.

Lance: quite right. Thats why I focus on the benefits of capitalism and corruption. Greed over profiting from water shortages will drive the next wars/disputes.............
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 29, 2018 5:28 am

Actually, greed is more likely to drive increased water supplies. There are $$$ in that dihydrogen monoxide.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue May 29, 2018 5:48 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Actually, greed is more likely to drive increased water supplies. There are $$$ in that dihydrogen monoxide.
Not really.
Companies like Nestlé make more money selling water as a scares commodity than by increasing the supply.

The future is in cheap, small solar-powered desalination systems as used in Australia, and precise irrigation system as used by Israel.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 29, 2018 5:51 am

No argument there, EM.
But it is worth remembering that those small desalination plants and more efficient irrigation generate plenty of money.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 29, 2018 8:10 am

Coincidentally, Amanpor on tv interviewing the rare exception of an ex-pat Iranian who was invited to come back to Iran and help them with their drought/water problems. He got hounded out of the country by right wingers who didn't want his success to make the Leader Rouhani look good. The economy and jobs suffering in Iran due to drought.

The capital of Iran sits in the plain just south of a mountain/ski resort area. It was different to see the "gutters" in their main streets have a stream of constantly running clean water. I don't know why they did this but decades ago they had water to spare. so....dried up, diverted...who knows?
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue May 29, 2018 10:44 am

The Syrian war is almost entirely due to drought: in order to pacify the people, Assad handed out farmland to everyone, causing way to much water to be consumed, which in turn lead to most farms being abandoned for the cities: massive unemployment in the major cities was fertile grounds for radical groups.
When you are starving, even something as simple as a meal package can become a kind of weapon.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 29, 2018 11:42 am

Thanks EM--I read and have posted here about Climate Change causing a long term (10 year?) drought in Syria causing the farmers to seek relief in the cities leading to civil unrest. I accept that it may have been exacerbated by Assad initially encouraging farming as well? I wonder which was more responsible???

Water. I have to admit a few decades ago when this was first mentioned as a future problem area, I didn't really recognize it even though I have spent most of my life in "The Arid West" and I chuckled at myself whenever coming across a river back East that was allowed to simply empty into the Ocean. "What a waste of water" I thought.....then...gee, its too bad this water can't be sent WEST.

Like most shortages, its distribution........../// In the case of water, a real limitation, not an artificial one created by man.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 29, 2018 1:00 pm

ElectricMonk wrote: Not really.
Companies like Nestlé make more money selling water as a scares commodity than by increasing the supply.
And some company that can undercut Nestle will be in the market hiyaku.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue May 29, 2018 1:12 pm

What I find particularly interesting is the relationship between the combination of Climate Change and urbanization: basically the question which Megacities will be able to deal with rise and population and possible decrease of water supply.
There are very few cities of 1million+ that can supply themselves with water. Some can in theory, but have such terrible/ancient piping that they lose a massive fraction: London is infamous for this.
Most coastal cities' groundwater is contaminated with sea salt. And they will be in dire straits when sea levels rise: I expect to see parts of Manhattan to get flooded in my lifetime.
So I believe that land-locked cities close to high mountains (which get snow in winter) will rise in importance compared to coastal cities or cities in swampy regions (Mexico, Washington).

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 29, 2018 1:28 pm

ElectricMonk wrote: There are very few cities of 1million+ that can supply themselves with water. Some can in theory, but have such terrible/ancient piping that they lose a massive fraction: London is infamous for this.
I had not noticed this before. New York just made the news a year or so ago finally installing another huge water supply pipe to become the primary source of water given the old pipes valves and gates were rusted solid? Being on point now, I do recall regular stories about various cities having huge water wastage because of leaks and corrosion and such. In the American West....most things (plumbing) is only about 100 years old........so our time has yet to come.

I have seen shows about "repair tech" where they can line an old broken pipe with some miracle fabric that seals the pipe thereby saving all kind of material and labor. I wonder if we should find such articles and send them to Flint...as a public service?
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 29, 2018 7:41 pm

That is a political problem.
Spending money on infrastructure and on replacing infrastructure is not sexy. So it does not gather votes. So politicians do not do it.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 29, 2018 8:13 pm

Not quite. Having clean safe drinking water is as sexy as you can get. ALL the rich people have it, ALL the time, AS MUCH as possible, including whatever they can take from the poor. Speaking of sex: {!#%@} the poor, just as we have always done....especially at national borders.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 30, 2018 4:31 am

It's an almost insurmountable problem: unless you have total state control like China, it's next to impossible to force people out of houses to replace the pluming underground . And, of course, in old European cities there is all kind of architecture and historical sites to consider.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 30, 2018 4:47 am

It still boils down to spending money. With enough money thrown at the problem it disappears. With politicians conserving money in order to spend it on vote catching ideas, the problem gets worse.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Wed May 30, 2018 7:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:That is a political problem.
Spending money on infrastructure and on replacing infrastructure is not sexy. So it does not gather votes. So politicians do not do it.
I'm guessing this is a U.S. centric problem?

Other nations, including my own, that is a winning strategy. The Liberals in the last election beat that drum wherever they went even calling to borrow and create a deficit to do so.

Jeremy Corbin is also getting favourable attention in the U.K. bringing up issues about infrastructure.

Really any social/democratic country is pretty aware of the importance of a good infrastructure and the role a government should play in that.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 30, 2018 8:44 am

Everyone is "aware" of whatever it you got. POINT IS: corruption doesn't care about anything except stealing as much $$ as possible. Everyone talks the talk.............very few if anyone walks. The talk: appeal to everyone. The actually doing of anything is very localized and therefore of limited aggregate political impact.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 30, 2018 11:55 pm

Hex

Not just US centric.

I am from NZ, and our new government has little interest in infrastructure. The vote catching issue right now is housing, and they are making extravagant promises about building heaps of homes. Probably a promise to be broken. Meantime, essential road building projects have been put on hold.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Thu May 31, 2018 12:18 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Hex

Not just US centric.

I am from NZ, and our new government has little interest in infrastructure. The vote catching issue right now is housing, and they are making extravagant promises about building heaps of homes. Probably a promise to be broken. Meantime, essential road building projects have been put on hold.
That is too bad to hear, we have a housing problem here also, but I think that is pretty universal no matter what governmental structure you are under.

I really don't know much about NZ other than they signed onto the TPP pretty quickly, which didn't seem like a good sign to me.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 31, 2018 2:07 am

To Hex

NZ will sign any free trade deal quickly. From our view point, why not ? We have next to no trade barriers anyway, without those deals, so knocking down trade barriers on the other side is a damn good idea. We have free trade deals with a number of nations that the moron Trump considers to be evil. Makes us lots of money !

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Thu May 31, 2018 2:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Hex

NZ will sign any free trade deal quickly. From our view point, why not ? We have next to no trade barriers anyway, without those deals, so knocking down trade barriers on the other side is a damn good idea. We have free trade deals with a number of nations that the moron Trump considers to be evil. Makes us lots of money !
I am certainly not against trade deals, especially with the fast expansion of the global economy and a real need for Canada to become less dependent on the U.S. for trade. That being said even though I'm for trade, I'll always oppose bad trade deals and much of what is in the TPP gives way too much power to corporations over governments, too much of the created wealth will go to those said corporations and not the people creating it and will weaken the ability of all levels of government to protect their land, resources, and health. The TPP is going to suck for everyone that isn't elite.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 31, 2018 5:21 am

A poor free trade deal is still better than ridiculous protectionism.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Thu May 31, 2018 7:19 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:A poor free trade deal is still better than ridiculous protectionism.
Neither is ideal in today's world as Trump is finding out, but I'll disagree about what is worse. I'll define a bad trade deal as a deal that only benefits a few in a society and from what I've seen bad trade deals under that definition just propels a race to the bottom. Rather than uplifting the common worker, you know the people who are creating the wealth, bad trade deals makes it easier to push labour down in both wages and safety. It is happening everywhere and it is a product of full capitalism, it is a feature not a bug.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 31, 2018 9:17 am

Obviously a good trade deal is better. But I am vehemently opposed to protection , which hurts every one in the end.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Thu May 31, 2018 2:35 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Obviously a good trade deal is better. But I am vehemently opposed to protection , which hurts every one in the end.
I don' t think this is true at all. Protectionism has its place, just like free trade. Protectionism works in unfair trade practices and when used properly saves jobs in a home country that would otherwise be lost in that race to the bottom I mentioned before.

Simply put trading isn't binary, you have to find the proper balance, which is why trade negotiations take so long.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 31, 2018 8:17 pm

Hex

True only if you look at that from a parochial and limited way. If you can get out of that and think globally it changes. Everyone is better off if you stop those stupid barriers to trade. Free trade also accelerates economic growth, even for those who think they benefit from protection.

Here in NZ, we had a backward protectionist government till 1984. Then a new government demolished subsidies and trade barriers, and our economy moved into the fast lane.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Hex » Thu May 31, 2018 9:52 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Hex

True only if you look at that from a parochial and limited way. If you can get out of that and think globally it changes. Everyone is better off if you stop those stupid barriers to trade. Free trade also accelerates economic growth, even for those who think they benefit from protection.

Here in NZ, we had a backward protectionist government till 1984. Then a new government demolished subsidies and trade barriers, and our economy moved into the fast lane.
I'm not fully disagreeing with you. Trade in this world is important, but right now trade agreements really are focused on what corporations, in particular, mega-corporations, can get out of it. You are starting to see the results in an accelerating gap between the rich and everyone else. it is obscene that a handful of people can hold the same private wealth as half the population on Earth and as long as we go this way it'll get worse, not better. There is no such thing as trickle-down economics, the biggest piece of propaganda that the elite has managed to instill in regular people is that unless these corporations aren't making gobs of money everything will fall apart. It isn't true, that is greed talking, trade should also include a fair equitable sharing of profits with everyone involved. Not in the way that everyone should get paid the same, this isn't some kind of scree against the wealthy, what i am saying is the elite are taking what their workers earn through low wages, few benefits and still work them like dogs. This is how someone like Jeff Bezos can become the richest man on Earth, but almost half of his employees are supplemented by social programs just to live.

The system is broken for everyone but the wealthy and powerful and many of these trade agreements are part of the problem.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 31, 2018 11:35 pm

Hex

I totally agree that the disparity between very rich and very poor is obscene. I also agree that trickle down is a myth. A convenient myth for those with the money.

But protectionism is not the answer. In fact, protectionism is rather too often instigated in order to permit the very rich to continue to milk local economies. My own view is that taxation is the answer. There are too many loopholes to allow the very rich, like the moron Trump, to avoid tax altogether.

My view is that businesses and corporations should be taxed on turnover, not profit. It is too easy to fake a low profit. But turnover is easily measured. Imagine an oil company that has to pay 10% of its total income in tax. Currently it probably makes 50% profit and pays 1% tax. Of course, some management will try to fake low turnover, but that is much easier to uncover than faking profit. We might have to build a few more prisons.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:41 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Everyone is better off if you stop those stupid barriers to trade.
"Everyone" is always ==>FALSE.

It is always true that more people will benefit or be harmed by one policy vs another.

See the difference? ((I know that you don't....but for those who do............))
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:23 am

Bobbo

As I already pointed out, it is a matter of time. Protectionism is short term thinking. Any benefit is for a few people only for a short time only. In the long run, protectionism works to make the economy weaker.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:28 am

Lance: You continue to make the same error. Conflation.

The "economy" is nothing more than the summing up of those who benefit with those who are harmed with most often the majority not being affected on way or the other. In fact, "the economy" usually is about the stock market and the effect on those who skim from it, aka: the 1%.

Don't be a stooge.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:24 pm

Bobbo

The economy is about the welfare of every one. A strong economy makes for well paid jobs, and for business opportunities. It is not just for the 1%.

I agree that the 1% have too big a share of the resources available, and I would like to see a better taxation system tackling this. But the 1% will screw everyone else with or without protection .

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:59 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: The economy is about the welfare of every one.
Simplistic NON-Think. "The Economy" is a mix of everything.....good and bad. Strong or Weak Economy some people benefit while others are harmed/hurt. ================>ALWAYS. IE: no exceptions.

Reality is a bit more complex than the simple black and white approach you use. I call it your simplistic religious mode of emoting. ymmv.
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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:18 pm

Bobbo

In spite of your comments, there are still generalisations that hold true. Sure there are always individual exceptions. But if something benefits one person and harms a dozen, it is bad.

Take Trumps tariffs on steel imports, supposedly to help the American economy.

Steel workers may benefit. But steel becomes more expensive, and under the tariff protection, the American steel industry is less assiduous about increasing its efficiency, due to reduced competition. In the long run, that means a sick steel industry.

At the same time, the American buyers of steel have to pay more. Since they use the steel to make things, those things become more expensive. Those manufacturers who export are suddenly less competitive on world markets, and may even go bankrupt. There is a further flow on effect. Imagine, for example that the steel was used to make agricultural tools and equipment. The farmers pay more, meaning they have to charge more when they sell their produce. A couple of steps further on in the supply chain and the very poor are paying more for food, making their lives even more miserable. This scenario is repeated in every supply chain that begins with steel.

At the end of the day, a tiny number of people benefit, and a very large number are harmed. So why did Trump do it ? After all, even though he is a moron , his advisors are smart enough to know better. Answer, Trump is sucking up to wealthy steel corporations.

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Re: Good Times: Nuclear Powers running out of Water

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:42 pm

Lance: you make my point..........rather than make a generalization: LOOK AT who is being helped and who is being hurt. Put the analysis THERE, are you might find the ECONOMY IS GOOD being touted when it is only the top 1% who is being benefited. In fact, that is the general rule.................

Seeing a deeper truth only takes a little bit of practice.........
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?