Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

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Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:23 pm

The long term trend for glaciers shows increasing ice. Gloom and doomers cherry pick the short term trend of the 20th century pointing to a natural "zag" of declining ice. Alarmists dishonestly ignore the important 3000 year history of glacial ice.

Image

graph from Glacier and lake-level variations in west-central Europe over the last 3500 years http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 605hl853ra

The Great Aletsch, the largest and best studied of all the Swiss Alp’s glaciers beautifully illustrates the recent 3000-year cooling trend punctuated with periodic warm spikes that caused rapid glacier retreats. The Great Aletsch’s maximum length during the Holocene was reached during the Little Ice age. The recent "zag" of declining ice began about 1850, long before CO2 had any impact, when it began retreating to its current position, represented by the "red baseline" in the graph above.

However during the warmth of the Bronze Age, just 3000 years ago, the glacier was much smaller than today. During the cooler Iron Age the glacier began to grow, a "zig", but rapidly retreated "a zag" during the warm spike of the Roman Warm Period. The glacier advanced again almost reaching its Little Ice Age maximum, but retreated rapidly during the warm spike during the Medieval Warm Period.

During the Little Ice Age, the Great Aletsch zigged and advanced to its greatest length of the Holocene, in rhythm with a series of 4 documented solar minimums. Each advance was followed by a rapid retreat, similar to what we observe today, when solar flux increased.

The glaciers recent retreat does not appear any different from retreats in past. So what does that tell us? To be clear the skeptic argument is not “because it was natural before then CO2 can not possibly contribute today”.

The skeptic argument is simply, we can not determine the sensitivity of our climate and glaciers to rising CO2, until we have fully accounted for past and present natural dynamics. Far too often the media, and a few invested atmospheric scientists, simply assert that retreating glaciers were all natural in the past, but since 1950 the retreat is suddenly due to CO2. But past natural climate dynamics did not suddenly stop operating in 1950. To what degree are natural climate dynamics contributing today?

As the sun's output is now declining and approaching Little Ice Age minimums, we are provided a natural experiment to see if glaciers will again zig with increasing ice as they recover from the 20th century short term zag! Does the precautionary principle suggest we prepare for a new ice age?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:05 pm

How well do the Swiss Alp’s glaciers represent the GLOBAL state of affairs?........or are they the very definition of a Cherry?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:05 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How well do the Swiss Alp’s glaciers represent the GLOBAL state of affairs?........or are they the very definition of a Cherry?


ROTFLMAO

Bobbo cant handle the truth, so once again evokes the tired old cliche of cherry picking. ROTFLMAO

Typical predictable Bobbo

The change in glaciers in the Alp are very representative of global conditions as suggested by the IPCC. But they do not represent all glaciers. While Alpine glaciers retreated in the late 20th century, glaciers in Norway, New Zealand and the Karokoram were advancing!
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:00 pm

So Jimbo: 30 years from now.........world wide............more or less glaciers?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:11 pm

Mirroring the lack of ice in the Alps 3000 years ago researchers of Greenaland's ice sheet wrote,

Several records spanning from Melville Bugt to Jakobshavn Isfjord in western Greenland indicate the GrIS [Greenland Ice Sheet] achieved its minimum extent between ~5 and 3 ka, and farther south in the Kangerlussuaq region, new data presented here indicate the ice margin reached its minimum extent between ~4.2 and 1.8 ka.


from the paper Holocene evolution of the western Greenland Ice Sheet: Assessing geophysical ice-sheet models with geological reconstructions of ice-margin change. Young (2015)
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:13 pm

It was really cold in my freezer last night. Its a cherry. I've got a thermostat to control the zig zags. What temp would you like to see?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:It was really cold in my freezer last night. Its a cherry. I've got a thermostat to control the zig zags. What temp would you like to see?


Hmmmm In responsse to the peer reviewed science presented, Bobbo blathers on with more inane nonsense.

How boring and childish.

Its sad no one here can engage in a meaningful scientific discussion!
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:34 pm

So Jimbo: 30 years from now.........world wide............more or less glaciers?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So Jimbo: 30 years from now.........world wide............more or less glaciers?


Try to think for yourself Bobbo

The long term trend shows increasing glaciers.

The increasing Greenland ice suggests the zag is switching to an increasing ice zig.

Changes in glaciers do NOT correlate with CO2 unless you cherrypick the last few decades.

So what should we expect?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 pm

Well JS... you stump me a bit. You "seem" so sincere........and that is allowed by your posting the link.

Your link supports growing ice and lakes in "west-central Europe" for the past 3500 years.

"west-central Europe" is NOT a global measurement nor a proxy for it.

the past 3500 years is not even the relevant time frame. You missed the hockey stick upturn.......but it may not even be there given the very restricted area?

I'm sorry JS......if you want to be RELEVANT to GLOBAL issues, you have to use GLOBAL data. And if you want to be relevant to whats happening right now......you have to use data from right now. Its that simple.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:if you want to be RELEVANT to GLOBAL issues, you have to use GLOBAL data. And if you want to be relevant to whats happening right now......you have to use data from right now. Its that simple.


More Boobo denial! More Boobo misdirection as he cherry picks local issues thinking they represent global change. He still fails to understand global statistics are a chimera of local statistics and fails to understand the long term trends.

Image

I understand everyone on this forum failed to understand the graph of Greenland where "right now" Geenland has gained ice. (So has the Karokoram as has Antarctica according to some researchers and discussed here http://landscapesandcycles.net/antarcti ... ural-.html ) So reading the graph of the historical Alps glaciers is probably far more difficult for Boobo's and others intellect.

Nonetheless, the key insight from the Great Aletsch glacier is how rapid glaciers can grow and how quickly they can retreat,

Another key insight is glaciers increased happened despite increasing CO2.

The other insight is despite the zigs and zags we are on a trend to have more glacial ice.

Alas, educating Boobo with peer reviewed science is like throwing pearls before swine.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"west-central Europe" is NOT a global measurement nor a proxy .


Its hilarious that alarmists have long pointed out shrinking Alpine glaciers as a proxy for climate change. Only bobbo, in his denial, argues against the scientific consensus that changes in the Alpine glaciers are not good proxies for global climate change.

When the zigs and zags expose boobo's misunderstanding, he sticks his fingers in his ears.

Image

So boobo, please list the scientific papers that argue "changes in Alpine glaciers do not reflect global climate change".
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:25 am

Sorry Jim. You are just making stuff up. There is no such consensus re the Alps.

.........its actually a lie..........but we've been down this road before.

Prove me wrong: link to any consensus statement.

I won't wait..........I'll move on to other threads................. cause you got nothing.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Sorry Jim. You are just making stuff up. There is no such consensus re the Alps.


ROTFLMAO. Liar liar pants on fire.

Actually Boobo it is you who has made things up. There are absolutely NO papers arguing that changes in the Alps do not reflect global climate change trends and thus can not serve as proxies for that change.

So show me the damn link that repeats your bullsh*t bluff that Alpine glaciers do NOT reflect long term global climate change i.e can not serve as proxies

The long term growth of Alpine glaciers during the LIttle Ice Age have coincided with the long term cooling of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans as well as growth of North American, South American glaciers. The lack of glaciers during the Roman Warm period generally coincides with warm periods around the world. As scientists have stated:

"The glaciers are kind of a direct signal of climate change," said Samuel Nussbaumer, a scientist with the World Glacier Monitoring Service at the University of Zurich.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2013-09-trail-swi ... n.html#jCp


You might also read the paper As Climate Changes, So Do Glaciers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC34302/

From their abstract

Understanding abrupt climate changes requires detailed spatial/temporal records of such changes, and to make these records, we need rapidly responding, geographically widespread climate trackers. Glacial systems are such trackers, and recent additions to the stratigraphic record show overall synchronous response of glacial systems to climate change reflecting global atmosphere conditions.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:11 am

There are absolutely NO papers arguing that changes in the Alps do not reflect global climate change trends and thus can not serve as proxies for that change.


down to proving a negative now JS? Bwhahahah!

"
"The glaciers are kind of a direct signal of climate change," said Samuel Nussbaumer, a scientist with the World Glacier Monitoring Service at the University of Zurich.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2013-09-trail-swi ... n.html#jCp


So I read more....past the headline that I thought surely I was misreading: "Trail of melting Swiss glacier shows climate change in action".....ummmm....just the OPPOSITE of what you are saying and saying the links say??

oooohhh...... there's your quote: ""The glaciers are kind of a direct signal of climate change," said Samuel Nussbaumer, a scientist with the World Glacier Monitoring Service at the University of Zurich.===>>>BUT THE GLACIER IS METLING AWAY. "Globally, glaciers are one of the main contributors to sea level rise, and their contribution to shrinking shore lines is believed to have doubled in recent decades."

Ha, ha. No need to go further.........Jimbo.....please get a neuro scan asap.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: there's your quote: ""The glaciers are kind of a direct signal of climate change," said Samuel Nussbaumer, a scientist with the World Glacier Monitoring Service at the University of Zurich.===>>>BUT THE GLACIER IS METLING AWAY.


More dishonest Bobbo double speak. Does bobbo have no shame!

My argument here has NEVER been that most glaciers are not retreating now. So what is bobbo blathering about???

The topic at hand is over the past 3000 years the glaciers have grown and retreated, just as they are doing now but for 2900 years glaciers retreated WITHOUT the help of CO2. The claim of this post is the rapid retreats we are seeing this century are very similar to the rapid retreats of the past. So today's retreat can readily be due to natural factors.

But Boobo tries to divert the issue dishonestly, oddly asserting that changes in the Alps' glaciers are NOT proxies for global climate change and Mr Twoface provides NO LINK for his lies. When shown that scientists indeed argue "glaciers are kind of a direct signal of climate change" boobo perverts the issue again.

What a strange dishonest little man. He's got more twists than a pretzel factory.

Again the issue is the current melting is just a zag in the long term climate change trend of increasing glaciers over the past 3000 years. The past 3000 years reveal that rapidly retreating glaciers happen naturally and periodically. Thus while many simply accept rising CO2 must be causing retreating glaciers, they have FAILED to account for natural retreat.

Since the Little Ice Age glacier growth was associated with extended solar minimums, we now have the beginning of a natural experiment as solar activity approaches Little Ice Age minimums. History suggest glaciers will soon recover
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:51 am

Wow. Here we go again. When in the past was trillions of tons of fossil fuels burned?

You are trying to obfuscate the relevant issue: whats been going on for the past 200 years or so.

I think you know it too. I accept you recognize your link said the EXACT OPPOSITE that you claimed. Aren't links great?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:38 am

Bobbo, I reckon you would argue black is white, that your Grandmother was actually your Grandfather, blah, blah.

JS asked you to provide a link supporting your argument. Unless my poor old aged eyes are failing me, you haven't done that.

I recall, Bobbo, that you called me out a few times in the past to post a link to substantiate my statements. Why is it that you can't lead by example.

Without backup, your posts are just drivel. Being skeptical of everything anybody says is not really what skepticism is all about. Certainly we do not just accept statements willy nilly. We look for supporting evidence, or scientific papers supporting various theories. As I believe I've said before Bobbo, you just appear to argue for argument's sake. I see very little science in most of your arguments. Don't know about America mate, but down under here, we call it bull {!#%@}.

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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:56 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Bobbo, I reckon you would argue black is white, that your Grandmother was actually your Grandfather, blah, blah.


Indeed PHoenix, you characteriz Boobo exactly. We go down this road with boobo every time he loses a scientific argument. Indeed boobo indulges in tons of BS, manufacturing bogus narratives and strawmen arguments. It seems strawmen are all he can refute. He's a legend in his own mind.

He refuses to support his BS with links because there arent any.

As illustrated in the Alps, Boobo cant refute the facts no matter how much he lies and misdirects

1) worldwide glaciers were much less extensive 3000 years ago than today.
2) even during the Little Ice Age glaciers periodically retreated just as rapidly as they do today despite low CO2.
3) the long term trend shows increasing glaciers and the current glacier retreat is just a zag in that trend.

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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trying to obfuscate the relevant issue: whats been going on for the past 200 years or so.


Boobo you refuse to accept what the scientific community has engaged in for decade. All researchers will admit, we can NOT evaluate the effect of rising CO2 on climate unless we accurately evaluate the boundaries of natural climate change. Burning fossil fuels only proves we are burning fossil fuels. Your arguments tell us nothing about the effect of rising CO2.

Examining the past reveals how climate changes naturally with low CO2. Examining the past does not obfuscate what is happening today, it constrains our interpretations.

And because past climate changes blow holes in your dooms day paranoia, you engage in every manner of obfuscation on this thread from lies about my claims to nonsense about your freezer to total BS with no links. What a piece of work you are.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:53 pm

WHATS THIS?????????

No insane laughter. No pictures of cuddly animals. Responding directly to what is said??? Ha, ha......when all else fails....actually engage? Jimbo....we need you on the Cult of Anti Holocaust Deniers thread.

JIm Steele wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trying to obfuscate the relevant issue: whats been going on for the past 200 years or so.


Boobo you refuse to accept what the scientific community has engaged in for decade. All researchers will admit, we can NOT evaluate the effect of rising CO2 on climate unless we accurately evaluate the boundaries of natural climate change.
Once again, I wonder if we should just chart and number your arguments for rapid dismissal?
1. Its not "me" doing anything..... except following the best science I can find: the IPCC.
2. It is Climate Science that determined co2 was driving current climate BECAUSE THEY ESTABLISHED THE BOUNDARIES OF NATURAL CLIMATE CHANGE....and correct me if I'm wrong...but natural climate right now would have us in a cooling spell?

JIm Steele wrote: Burning fossil fuels only proves we are burning fossil fuels. Your arguments tell us nothing about the effect of rising CO2.
No. But nice twist. Burning fossil fuels is what takes us beyond your "Natural climate cycles." If we should be cooling, or warming at a lesser rate..... why aren't we? And you go thru all the known factors and the only one recognized as the possible driving force......the only stimulus that is gaining in strength or effect is co2. Repeat Argument #1==its the IPCC that determined that Climate Change is being driven by co2. Personally....I have no idea at all.

JIm Steele wrote: Examining the past reveals how climate changes naturally with low CO2. Examining the past does not obfuscate what is happening today, it constrains our interpretations.
Examining the past shows how climate changes naturally at all different levels of co2. I agree examining the past does reveal what is happening today...its YOU cherrypicking the data that attempts to deny the obvious.

JIm Steele wrote: And because past climate changes blow holes in your dooms day paranoia, you engage in every manner of obfuscation on this thread from lies about my claims to nonsense about your freezer to total BS with no links.
What do past climate changes reveal about dumping trillions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere in 200 years tell us? It tells us the temps will go up.......and thats all I say........except noticing that such a temp rise will destroy our society. Causing a mass extinction of most life on Earth ........ hmmmm.....because the literature is so "conservative" I don't really have a feel for how remote that possibility is. I will admit, my gut but not clear thinking says some huge Methane Release to create an extinction event "probably" is less possible than I was thinking. Probably....but I just don't know. Hard to think rationally with precision when bird dogs like yourself deny the basics.

JIm Steele wrote: What a piece of work you are.
30 years from now: More or Less glaciers? You say there will be more glaciers and provide a link saying just the opposite. So: "No, you are."...... course, "work" isn't the word I'd use.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Its not "me" doing anything..... except following the best science I can find: the IPCC.
2. It is Climate Science that determined co2 was driving current climate BECAUSE THEY ESTABLISHED THE BOUNDARIES OF NATURAL CLIMATE CHANGE....and correct me if I'm wrong...but natural climate right now would have us in a cooling spell?


Ok I will correct you. Again! To travel down this road again and again with boobo, I am told I have the patience of a saint.

First Boobo, provide a damn link to the paper that shows climate models have unequivocally simulated natural variations. Both the IPCC and the recent National Climate Assessment show the CO2 driven models do not accurately simulate El Ninos, Pacific Decadal Oscillation, North Atlantic Oscillation, monsoons etc etc... You are just blowing more smoke. Again.

Realize that the only evidence that the IPCC has that CO2 is causing recent climate change is the discrepancy between their models of natural variability and recent warming. Proponents of CO2 climate change argue their models can only simulate recent warming if CO2 is added to their model. However their models of natural variability not only failed to simulate recent warming but failed miserably to simulate the warming of the 1930s as seen in the graph from Gillette 2008. Compare the graphs blue line (natural model) to the black line (observed) http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v1/n ... eo338.html

Image

Remember natural variations due to El Nino and the Pacific Decadal Oscialltions were never incorporated into their initially models. The PDO was only named in 1997 when their models had already blamed warming on CO2. So they tuned their models to CO2. However the more parsimonious explanation for the failure of their models to simulate both natural variability and explain recent and past warming is simply their models were incomplete. That is the basic science you fail to comprehend. When CO2 is added, their faulty models converted the observed warm blips of the 30s and 40s into temperatures colder than what was observed. ROTFLMAO

To deal with their failures to model natural climate change in the 30s and 40s, instead of making better models, IPCC scientists discussed getting rid of the inconvenient warm blips. Furthermore despite the cooling trend over the past 3000 years, CO2 increased. If the rising CO2 was used to model late Holocene temperatures the models would contradict the observed cooling trend. This is known as the Holocene Paradox.

Here is an example of IPCC scientists dealing with their bad models!

"Phil, Here are some speculations on correcting SSTs to partly explain the 1940s warming blip. If you look at the attached plot you will see that the land also shows the 1940s blip (as I'm sure you know). So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean -- but we'd still have to explain the land blip.

I've chosen 0.15 here deliberately. This still leaves an ocean blip, and i think one needs to have some form of ocean blip to explain the land blip (via either some common forcing, or ocean forcing land, or vice versa, or all of these). When you look at other blips, the land blips are 1.5 to 2 times (roughly) the ocean blips -- higher sensitivity plus thermal inertia effects. My 0.15 adjustment leaves things consistent with this, so you can see where I am coming from. Removing ENSO does not affect this. It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with "why the blip".
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:24 pm

Didn't we go over all those?

I think so.

I could only repeat myself..........so i won't.

The IPCC is the considered opinion of qualified scientists. I'll wait for them to agree adding co2 doesn't matter.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Didn't we go over all those?


Yes. You are a slow learner so I must repeat your science lessons. The last time we went over the science your woeful lack of knowledge was repeatedly exposed.

And once again to cover your shortcomings, you dodge the scientific evidence I presented from peer reviewed journals that show models have failed to correctly simulate natural variability.

Perhaps you have a link (ROTFLMAO) to an IPCC model that correctly models the 30s and 40s warm temperatures?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:43 pm

Jimbo: we went over those before.

aka: Nothing New.

sorry.....I'd like to play the game with you.........buts its been played, or I'm played out. I don't want to go back to basics with your flip flopping on whether or not co2 is a green house gas.

What am I interested in?....hmmmm...how to put some LIFE into the IPCC so that we the victims of inaction can really understand the likilhood of the different scenarios coming about?.........Oooh....what kind of technology application is possible to return us to 280ppm? I recall fondly that 6ix part show on such solutions...like covering the North Pole in tin foil?==ie: they had nothing.

I know.......you aren't interested in such things..........and vice versa.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jimbo: we went over those before.


Yes and as we see now, you have never refuted any of the evidence. You just try to re-direct the debate elsewhere.

You cling to the "IPCC" without understanding all the issues as if the IPCC has refuted the evidence I presented.

I think Einstein had you and your fellow gloom and doomers in mind

“Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”



Hmmmmm! boobo or Einstein????


Image
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't want to go back to basics with your flip flopping on whether or not co2 is a green house gas.



This is another example of boobo's egrgious lies which he never provides links to verify.

As Einstein wrote and Boobo should understand

Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.




I have never flipped flopped. I have always agreed CO2 was a greenhouse. My argument has always been the climate has lower sensitivity to rising CO2 than gloom and doomers suggest.

Prove me wrong boobo. Provide the quotes and links that I have ever flipped flopped and that you are not ugly liar.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:40 am

We had that discussion already. Same quotes. First time ever the use of "ugly." Is that enough to trudge through it all again?.........Nope.

so........does green house gas heating the planet up which your magic eight ball only says "more slowly" than the experts do support the notion of growing or shrinking glaciers?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:05 am

Show the quotes and links proving I have ever flipped flopped, otherwise you are proving you are just an ugly liar who repeats the same bogus crap ad nauseum!
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:37 am

You say co2 is a green house gas. THAT means it is heating things up..........adding to your notion of the constraints of natural cycle constraints. You prove this by posting studies you say show glaciers are growing in the Alps.... and then link to an article that says exactly the opposite.

You are welcomed.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jimbo: we went over those before. aka: Nothing New.
I don't want to go back to basics with your flip flopping on whether or not co2 is a green house gas.


Yes we have been over this before and it has been proven you are a shameless ugly liar time and time again.

Show the quotes and links proving I have ever flipped flopped about Co2 being a greenhouse gas, otherwise you are proving once again you are just an ugly liar who repeats the same bogus crap ad nauseum!

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You prove this by posting studies you say show glaciers are growing in the Alps.... and then link to an article that says exactly the opposite.


Boobo proves he is willing to shamelessly distort the facts or is totally ignorant of basic science. He fails to comprehend the difference between a 3000 year trend of increasing glaciers and a 150 years of glacier retreat.

This post with the accompanying graph shows both short term zigs and zags over the 3000 year trend. But boobo's disgusting trolling tries fabricate a bogus contradiction. And like propagandists of the past that boobo appears to emulate, if you tell big lies long enough he hopes people will believe them.

He could have been referring to Boobo when Einstein wrote

Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:54 pm

Ha, ha.........poor Jimbo. Your links say the exact opposite of what you say they do.

Your chart clipped to hide the relevant most recent hockey sticks of destruction.

Everyone sees that.........even you.

Deal with ................... the facts of the matter.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:26 pm

Still Waiting!


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jimbo: we went over those before. aka: Nothing New.
I don't want to go back to basics with your flip flopping on whether or not co2 is a green house gas.


Yes we have been over this before and it has been proven you are a shameless ugly liar time and time again and you constantly distort what has been said.

Show the quotes and links proving I have ever flipped flopped about Co2 being a greenhouse gas, otherwise you are proving once again you are just an ugly liar who repeats the same bogus crap ad nauseum!

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Your links say the exact opposite of what you say they do.


Show the quotes and links proving "my links contradict my assertions" otherwise you are proving once again you are just an ugly liar

Your never ending string of lies is slander.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:58 pm

See above.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby Jim Steele » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:07 pm

Alarmists always suggest a false dichotomy: Growing glaciers are weather and shrinking glaciers are climate. ROTFLMAO

At least 58 New Zealand glaciers advanced between 1983 and 2008, with Franz Josef Glacier (Kā Roimata o Hine Hukatere) advancing nearly continuously during this time.

"Glaciers advancing is very unusual—especially in this period when the vast majority of glaciers worldwide shrank in size as a result of our warming world," says lead-author Associate Professor Andrew Mackintosh from Victoria's Antarctic Research Centre.

"This anomaly hadn't been satisfactorily explained, so this physics-based study used computer models for the first time to look into it in detail.

"We found that lower temperature caused the glaciers to advance, rather than increased precipitation as previously thought. These periods of reduced temperature affected the entire New Zealand region, and they were significant enough for the glaciers to re-advance in spite of human-induced climate change."



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-02-zealand-u ... s.html#jCp

Not to mention the growing Karakoram glaciers
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:29 pm

JIm Steele wrote:Alarmists always suggest a false dichotomy: Growing glaciers are weather and shrinking glaciers are climate. ROTFLMAO

Only accurate thing you have posted in years. Are you learning anything or was this an accident..... a zig in the zag of things if you will?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:39 am

ROTFLMAOPIMP
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby robinson » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:03 pm

I was just reading a bunch of books and papers that use glaciers (as well as other data) to explain how we know the climate has changed during the Holocene.

http://paleoglaciology.org/regions/Over ... rDynamics/ (shows the Alps)

The period since the Altithermal is called neoglacial, because that's when the glaciers grew again. It's pretty well known by actual science and people who spend their lives researching climate history.

And the evidence is worldwide, not just for Europe and North America.
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:35 pm

robinson wrote:I was just reading a bunch of books and papers that use glaciers (as well as other data) to explain how we know the climate has changed during the Holocene.

http://paleoglaciology.org/regions/Over ... rDynamics/ (shows the Alps)

The period since the Altithermal is called neoglacial, because that's when the glaciers grew again. It's pretty well known by actual science and people who spend their lives researching climate history.

And the evidence is worldwide, not just for Europe and North America.

And what conclusion do you draw from all this actual science?
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Re: Natural "zig-zags" of the Alp's glaciers

Postby robinson » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:12 am

Because of the recent melting of some glaciers, new reconstructions of past variability based on the analysis of tree rings and organic material buried by the former glacier advances and released in the glacier forefield recently became possible (Holzhauser et al. 2005, Hormes et al. 2001, Koch et al. 2005, Jorin et al. 2006, Grosjean et al. 2007).

Several aspects of glacier dynamics should be kept in mind when this data is used for climatic reconstructions. The response time of an advancing or retreating glacier front to a climatic signal differs for different glaciers depending on type, size and morphology of the glacier. For typical alpine valley glaciers the response time is estimated as 10 to 50 years (Oerlemans 1998). The best climatic indicators are non-surging mountain glaciers of moderate size and simple shape, which are located on-land (without floating tongue), and have a regular accumulation (rather than provided by avalanches or snow re-distributed by wind).

We are learning more all the time, for example
"Even though the warm Eemian period was a period when the oceans were four to eight meters higher than today, the ice sheet in northwest Greenland was only a few hundred meters lower than the current level, which indicates that the contribution from the Greenland ice sheet was less than half the total sea-level rise during that period," says Dorthe Dahl-Jensen, Professor at the Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, and leader of the NEEM-project.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130123133612.htm

If that is true, then the water came from somewhere else, Antarctica being the most likely suspect. Understanding how nature works, and what we are doing to change things is actually a very important matter.

https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TO ... -11-44.pdf
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