How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:50 am

What rapid upward slope?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:18 am

2nd chart in the OP. If you don't see it, thats ok too.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:28 pm

Oh, you mean how it snowed during the winter?

Yeah, I hear it does that.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:42 pm

Is changes in Greenland ice due simply to weather. Is this years increase of SMB reflect a change in the weather and a new trend?

The 2012 red line in the DMI graph showing little or no ice accumulation (depending on how their models were adjusted) is a cherry-picked extreme year, which alarmists suggested was due to global warming. Those of us who follow the science, know 2012 was a year when a high pressure system settle over Greenland reducing cloud cover and increasing insolation, which is the standard dynamic for all heatwaves, resultng in extreme melting.

A new paper shows Greenland SMB trends are driven by cloudiness modulated by the all natural North Atlantic Oscillation and once again the models fail to simulate the natural drivers of climate change. From the paper Decreasing cloud cover drives the recent mass loss on the Greenland Ice Sheet. http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/6/e1700584

"The Greenland Ice Sheet (GrIS) has been losing mass at an accelerating rate since the mid-1990s. This has been due to both increased ice discharge into the ocean and melting at the surface, with the latter being the dominant contribution. This change in state has been attributed to rising temperatures and a decrease in surface albedo. We show, using satellite data and climate model output, that the abrupt reduction in surface mass balance since about 1995 can be attributed largely to a coincident trend of decreasing summer cloud cover enhancing the melt-albedo feedback. Satellite observations show that, from 1995 to 2009, summer cloud cover decreased by 0.9 ± 0.3% per year. Model output indicates that the GrIS summer melt increases by 27 ± 13 gigatons (Gt) per percent reduction in summer cloud cover, principally because of the impact of increased shortwave radiation over the low albedo ablation zone. The observed reduction in cloud cover is strongly correlated with a state shift in the North Atlantic Oscillation promoting anticyclonic conditions in summer and suggests that the enhanced surface mass loss from the GrIS is driven by synoptic-scale changes in Arctic-wide atmospheric circulation."


and

Our results indicate that climate models that do not adequately capture NAO behavior will not reproduce the forcing required to simulate the current SMB trends observed over the last two decades, confirming the results of previous studies (13, 16, 22, 23). They also indicate that the sudden decline in Greenland’s (surface)mass balance is not primarily a direct response to the local increase in atmospheric temperature, because anomalies in downwelling longwave radiation have contributed less energy to the increase in melt of the GrIS than SWD [shortwave solar] anomalies. This is contradictory to previous analyses that have focused on the increase in temperature as the main cause of GrIS melting (15, 16), as well as on the longwave warming effect of clouds."


They do mention that global warming may have altered general circulation patterns but such statements had nothing to do with their research and appears to be more appeasement to the CO2-drives-everything editors. Nearly all research has shown the North Atlantic Oscillation is natural and unaffected by CO2 in the models.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:04 pm

https://www.universetoday.com/136431/satellite-images-show-trillion-ton-iceberg-broke-off-antarctica/

The Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA’s Aqua satellite captured this image of the gigantic new iceberg on July 12, 2017. NASA Earth Observatory image by Joshua Stevens, using MODIS data from LANCE/EOSDIS Rapid Response.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Eeek! Save the Wales! :-P
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:22 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Eeek! Save the Wales! :-P

It's a Titanic problem.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:42 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Eeek! Save the Wales! :-P

It's a Titanic problem.

Thanks, Trump. :glare:
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:41 pm

ROTFLMAO

On a thread showing large accumulations of ice on Greenland, the alarmists respond by going to Antarctica to hype the natural calving if an iceberg from the Larsen C ice shelf as if such events never happened before CO2. No respected scientist will blame climate change on the calving of icebergs.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40321674

Far more telling is the alarmists' politics. The crack in the ice shelf began during Obama's first term and accelerated during Obama's second, yet the dooms day Trump haters say, Thanks trump.

Doesnt anyone on this forum understand natural change whether its Greenland or Antarctica?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:29 pm

JIm Steele wrote:No respected scientist will blame climate change on the calving of icebergs.

Well, there's yer problem: You don't understand that these scientists are respected, even if alarmists like yourself don't like them.

F'r instance: http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacie ... te-change/

...With one particularly warm summer, a thinned ice shelf that is close to its threshold is liable to break up very quickly as meltwater ponding on its surface propagates downwards and initiates iceberg calving by hydrofracture. Some of these ice shelves have collapsed for the first time26....

...Pritchard and Vaughan (2007) argue that thinning as a result of a negative mass balance will reduce the effective stress of a glacier’s bed near the margin, reducing basal resistance and increasing sliding. This leads to further thinning, floatation, rapid calving and increased glacier recession33....

26. Domack, E., Duran, D., Leventer, A., Ishman, S., Doane, S., McCallum, S., Amblas, D., Ring, J., Gilbert, R. & Prentice, M. Stability of the Larsen B ice shelf on the Antarctic Peninsula during the Holocene epoch. Nature 436, 681-685 (2005).

33. Pritchard, H.D. & Vaughan, D.G. Widespread acceleration of tidewater glaciers on the Antarctic Peninsula. Journal of Geophysical Research-Earth Surface 112, F03S29, 1-10 (2007).
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:41 pm

Gord wrote:Well, there's yer problem: You don't understand that these scientists are respected, even if alarmists like yourself don't like them.

F'r instance: http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacie ... te-change/

...With one particularly warm summer, a thinned ice shelf that is close to its threshold is liable to break up very quickly as meltwater ponding on its surface propagates downwards and initiates iceberg calving by hydrofracture. Some of these ice shelves have collapsed for the first time26....

...Pritchard and Vaughan (2007)


ROTFLMAO There's your problem Gord!

You and the other alarmists really suffer from a Titanic departure from reality.

You refer to "meltwater ponding" that was observed on the Larsen B calving, during a foehn event (adiabtic heating meaning no effect from global warming or any other outside heating) and then you apply it to this natural ice berg calving, where no melt ponds were ever observed. No "consensus" scientist will support your foolish nonsense.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:47 pm

JIm Steele wrote:Is changes in Greenland ice due simply to weather. Is this years increase of SMB reflect a change in the weather and a new trend?


Zig-zag buffoonery.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:20 pm

JIm Steele wrote:
Gord wrote:
JIm Steele wrote:No respected scientist will blame climate change on the calving of icebergs.

Well, there's yer problem: You don't understand that these scientists are respected, even if alarmists like yourself don't like them.

F'r instance: http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacie ... te-change/

...With one particularly warm summer, a thinned ice shelf that is close to its threshold is liable to break up very quickly as meltwater ponding on its surface propagates downwards and initiates iceberg calving by hydrofracture. Some of these ice shelves have collapsed for the first time26....

...Pritchard and Vaughan (2007) argue that thinning as a result of a negative mass balance will reduce the effective stress of a glacier’s bed near the margin, reducing basal resistance and increasing sliding. This leads to further thinning, floatation, rapid calving and increased glacier recession33....

26. Domack, E., Duran, D., Leventer, A., Ishman, S., Doane, S., McCallum, S., Amblas, D., Ring, J., Gilbert, R. & Prentice, M. Stability of the Larsen B ice shelf on the Antarctic Peninsula during the Holocene epoch. Nature 436, 681-685 (2005).

33. Pritchard, H.D. & Vaughan, D.G. Widespread acceleration of tidewater glaciers on the Antarctic Peninsula. Journal of Geophysical Research-Earth Surface 112, F03S29, 1-10 (2007).

ROTFLMAO There's your problem Gord!

You and the other alarmists really suffer from a Titanic departure from reality.

You refer to "meltwater ponding" that was observed on the Larsen B calving, during a foehn event (adiabtic heating meaning no effect from global warming or any other outside heating) and then you apply it to this natural ice berg calving, where no melt ponds were ever observed. No "consensus" scientist will support your foolish nonsense.

Well, skeptics like myself simply don't believe your alarmist claims that 97% of climate scientists are idiots.

Your claim was that "no respected scientist will blame climate change on [sic]1 the calving of icebergs." I showed you were wrong -- respected scientists do blame climate change for the calving of icebergs. Rather than admit that, you turn the argument to another point. I never claimed which iceberg calving was due to climate change, only that climate change was blamed for the calving of icebergs -- which it is.

You're stuck on stupid, sir. Please deal with your problem.




1 the only reasonable reading for this is that you meant to say "for the calving of icebergs". If you really did mean "on the calving of icebergs", then you would be correct, but saying such a thing would be creating a strawman argument. Granted, you are the type of person to do so, though, so it's entirely possible you meant exactly what you had typed rather than the emended version I read in order to make any sense whatsoever of your claim.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Zig-zag buffoonery.


Typical bobbo. When he cant understand or accept the science, he launches into his usual insults. No cogent discussion of the science. Just his typical insults.

Bobbo who admits not knowing or understanding scientific papers is now calling Greenland scientists buffoons. ROTFLMAO. As all can see the links are not the issue. If the links dont support his nonsense he goes full blown scientard.

The new paper shows Greenland SMB trends are driven by cloudiness modulated by the all natural North Atlantic Oscillation, and once again that the models fail to simulate the natural drivers of climate change.

Bobbo is given a link (see below), and as predicted it doesnt mean a thing unless it agrees with bobbo's end-of-the-world paranoia. That's why bobbos prediction of zero smb on Greenland this year is a total fail. He doesnt understand how Greenland can gain so much ice, thinking everything breaks bad due to CO2 .

Aagain from the paper Decreasing cloud cover drives the recent mass loss on the Greenland Ice Sheet. http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/6/e1700584
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:28 pm

Gord wrote:You're stuck on stupid, sir. Please deal with your problem.


Yup yup yup glaciers have never calved until CO2 caused climate change. ROTFLMAO

Who is stuck on stupid?

And BTW You never showed I was wrong. Linking to a fellow stupid proves nothing.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:29 pm

JIm Steele wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Zig-zag buffoonery.


Typical bobbo. When he cant understand or accept the science, he launches into his usual insults.


Do you deny the charts/data you use do zig-zag?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:32 pm

JIm Steele wrote:
Gord wrote:You're stuck on stupid, sir. Please deal with your problem.


Yup yup yup glaciers have never calved until CO2 caused climate change. ROTFLMAO

Who is stuck on stupid?


Ha, ha. YOU are.

Prove you are not stupid by copy and paste where ANYONE has said: "glaciers have never calved until co2 caused climate change."

You can't. In a continuation of your grownupification: you "should" post an apology for this gross and immature diversion from the discussion in fact had to date.

....................................... but you won't.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Do you deny the charts/data you use do zig-zag?


Please repeat in English, or supply a link to translate your blather
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:35 pm

Such an intelligent discussion from our resident alarmists.

"you are stupid"

"no you are stupid"

Well if you cant deal with science such childishness is expected
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:38 pm

Where is your copy and paste? In bed with your links?????
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:40 pm

Ha, ha.............if I were a biased Moderator........... I might consider banning Jim Steele until he provided "any" copy and paste in response to his claim........or admitted, if not apologized, for such false, misleading, or unsupported arguments/statements/recounting/characterization. Then, for balance, I'd caution myself.

Pros and Cons.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:48 pm

ROTFLMAO!

All this bizarre nonsense and personal attacks simply because the facts show Greenland gaining ice this year.

Alarmists are such sensitive Sallys with little integrity.
The more links I prvide to peer reviewed papers, the more stupid the personal attacks. ROTFLMAO!
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:55 pm

No links.

No copy and paste.

No basic internet etiquette.

Ever wonder why the police attack you first at sit ins?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:55 pm

And for those alarmists suggesting warming on the Antarctic peninsula caused the natural calving, I suggest you get more informed. That region has been cooling for over 2 decades

From the paper by Turner (2016), Absence of 21st century warming on Antarctic Peninsula consistent with natural variability

Here we use a stacked temperature record to show an absence of regional warming since the late 1990s.
The annual mean temperature has decreased at a statistically significant rate, with the most rapid cooling during the Austral summer. Temperatures have decreased as a consequence of a greater frequency of cold, east-to-southeasterly winds, resulting from more cyclonic conditions in the northern Weddell Sea associated with a strengthening mid-latitude jet


https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v ... 18645.html
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:57 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
No basic internet etiquette.


ROTFLMAO. The most dishonest, insulting, avoider of meaningful scientific discussion, tries to suggest it is others that lack etiquette. ROTFLMAO
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:01 am

Tic tic tic...
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:14 am

JIm Steele wrote: Yup yup yup glaciers have never calved until CO2 caused climate change. ROTFLMAO


To be fair, and more insightful than JS, this could well be sarcasm more than an attempted direct argument. Jimbo does use "humor" to deflect from his single minded effort to bring about World Climatic Cat-tas-trophy.

Sadly, like the intertwining of natural and man made stimulus.......he can't tell the difference===>and neither should we on the former, but certainly on the ladder.

Have I word played enough?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:17 am

Image
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:22 am

JIm Steele wrote:
Gord wrote:You're stuck on stupid, sir. Please deal with your problem.

Yup yup yup glaciers have never calved until CO2 caused climate change. ROTFLMAO

Who is stuck on stupid?

You are. No one ever made any such claim.

And BTW You never showed I was wrong.

Yes I did.

Linking to a fellow stupid proves nothing.

I know you are but what am I. :beee:
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:23 am

JS: so what is your point of posting your link re ice gain "this year" in Greenland?

Is it that weather varies????? ................ or what?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:25 am

JIm Steele wrote:All this bizarre nonsense and personal attacks imply because the facts show Greenland gaining ice this year.

No, your bizarre nonsense and personal attacks just show that you either don't know what you're talking about or you're intentionally being deceptive.

That's not an exclusive or, by the way; both could be true. In fact, they probably are.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:27 am

JIm Steele wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No basic internet etiquette.

ROTFLMAO. The most dishonest, insulting, avoider of meaningful scientific discussion, tries to suggest it is others that lack etiquette. ROTFLMAO

Well, he's not wrong.

Just because he's a monster doesn't mean you're not a monster too.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:33 am

Image

Lots of good stuff on JS's linked site that he doesn't mention like the above chart showing the "balance status quo" being rapidly re-established, along with the below explanation:

"As mentioned, satellites measuring the ice sheet mass have observed a loss of around 200 Gt/year over the last decade."

Thats a lot of ice loss to deny.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:57 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Image

Lots of good stuff on JS's linked site that he doesn't mention like the above chart showing the "balance status quo" being rapidly re-established....

Look closer, it was never "un-established". The line goes up and down, just like other years. Sometimes it's outside of the grey to the top, sometimes to the bottom, just like other years -- that's how they get the grey zone in the first place. It's a trend. You can't take one year and hold it out as The Answer™, you have to wait and gather more evidence. Otherwise, you could look at that chart and declare, "The results from March prove Greenland has completely melted!"

(Hint: They don't.)
Last edited by Gord on Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:58 am

Gord: thanks for the catch.
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Jim Steele
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:JS: so what is your point of posting your link re ice gain "this year" in Greenland?

Is it that weather varies????? ................ or what?


No no no Bobbo. You keep diverting the issues raised. Its a dodge you always do.

I ask again, Why did you predict that the SMB will dip below the red line towards zero?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:57 am

Gord wrote:Your claim was that "no respected scientist will blame climate change on [sic]1 the calving of icebergs." I showed you were wrong -- respected scientists do blame climate change for the calving of icebergs.


Glaciers calve naturally all the time. The consensus is the Larsen C calving was natural as well. Only stupid alarmist scientists and Gord will blame the Larsen C calving on climate change when that region has been cooling for 2 decades.

Gord wrote: I never claimed which iceberg calving was due to climate change,


Dont play that idiotic game. You made your climate claim in the context of the Larsen C calving. Saying some imaginary glacier over the rainbow calved due to climate change is more alarmist nonsense.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:06 am

I must say this has become one of the most hilarious examples of alarmists bumbling fabrications yet.

All I said in the original post was:

Greenland has been adding ice at a record pace. Most likely it will gain over 500 gigatons this year

Image

And bobbo, scrm and Gord go nuts (literally) trying to divert the issue with all sorts of personal nonsense. Doesnt take much to push their goofy buttons.

My prediction stands Greenland will accumulate about 500 gt in SMB, and predictions of zero will reveal a total lack of scientific understanding.
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:57 am

Yes...........and THIRD TIME: what are we supposed to take from such a factoid?
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Re: How much ice will Greenland gain this year?

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes...........and THIRD TIME: what are we supposed to take from such a factoid?


ROTFLMAO You cant think for your self?

Its quite obvious!
“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." Galileo


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