Hydrogen is making a comeback

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ElectricMonk
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Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri May 12, 2017 9:50 am

Both hydrogen and LNG are hard to transport long distance. But renewable energy is generated in some places better than others (sunlight, wind, etc.)

Australia has come up with a membrane that can separate hydrogen from ammonia, a liquid that is easy to move ( or pump) and could be used in new hydrogen powered cars, producing water and nitrogen as exhaust.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-1 ... fmredir=sm
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Gord » Fri May 12, 2017 1:55 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-11/hydrogen-breakthrough-could-fuel-renewable-energy-export-boom/8518916?pfmredir=sm

..."What the CSIRO technology is on the cusp of achieving is using renewable ammonia as a very efficient way to transport hydrogen — and that's a game-changer," [Mr. Want] said.

"It means Korea, Japan, the whole of South-East Asia can now import Australian renewable energy in the form of renewable hydrogen...."

Okay, first of all, "Mr. Want"? Fake name alert! :P He's clearly a Devil character from a Stephen King book.

Second, if they're still on the cusp of achieving it, then you can't NOW use it to important hydrogen because they haven't achieved it yet.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri May 12, 2017 2:53 pm

You mean I shouldn't have invested all my money in this?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Gord » Fri May 12, 2017 2:57 pm

Yes, you should have. I shouldn't have.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 12, 2017 4:53 pm

So..........who do I short, and who do I long?

Yes. "Hydrogen Economy." Its one of my favorite topics to follow as it is "new tech" and has SO MANY applications from power storage to power transport to use. And at least at the end point, its all green.

Hydrogen gas and liquid is stored and moved all the time right now. Lots of other highly inflammable items as well. A year ago there seems to be an oil train fire once a month for 4-5 months? All those flames right outside town usually by a kiddie school?

I'll bet without much trouble whatever the transport/storage issues are that they could be "solved." for ultimate safety, it sounds like transporting ammonia, a poisonous gas, is safer? If so, I also assume its fairly easy to transmute H into NH3. Gee.........three H's. That is very concentrated? Strip the Nitrogen into fertilizer and you got your gas. Cool.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri May 12, 2017 5:39 pm

The nitrogen goes into the atmosphere - which is mostly nitrogen anyway.
But it's true that liquid ammonia has a much higher hydrogen density than liquid hydrogen and takes much less effort to keep safe.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 12, 2017 5:55 pm

EM--just to quibble....why put the nitrogen into the atmosphere if you can use it to make fertilizer?

And...liquid Hydrogen is just hydrogen gas cooled down? Now....from High School, hydrogen gas is H2 or 100% hydrogen. Pure Hs with the maximum density compared to anything that is mixture?

But tis a quibble. Its a cost factor to convert at both ends. I assume that might be well worth it for safety issues...and perhaps especially so if used in Hydrogen based fuel cells for cars? I assume as fuel cells and not for direct combustion....but who knows?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri May 12, 2017 6:47 pm

Because a gas has a lower atom density than a liquid: liquid hydrogen, unless incredibly cooled is more compressed gas than liquid.
And ammonia is already the precursor to amonium nitrate fertilizer.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 14, 2017 4:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So..........who do I short, and who do I long?

Yes. "Hydrogen Economy." Its one of my favorite topics to follow as it is "new tech" and has SO MANY applications from power storage to power transport to use. And at least at the end point, its all green.

Hydrogen gas and liquid is stored and moved all the time right now. Lots of other highly inflammable items as well. A year ago there seems to be an oil train fire once a month for 4-5 months? All those flames right outside town usually by a kiddie school?

I'll bet without much trouble whatever the transport/storage issues are that they could be "solved." for ultimate safety, it sounds like transporting ammonia, a poisonous gas, is safer? If so, I also assume its fairly easy to transmute H into NH3. Gee.........three H's. That is very concentrated? Strip the Nitrogen into fertilizer and you got your gas. Cool.

This guy, although I'm sure it wasn’t his intent:
sciencetoolbar wrote:simple small generator lighting 11 W 230 V Hg bulb test
2 coils, neodymyum magnet sphere 26 mm, 4 V Dc motor, baterry 3,7 V 2000 mAh
the generator is transforming the magnetic flux generated by the sphere in electricity with the help of the coil.
we are looking to improve it and find a suitable aplication.
thx st
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KErVBeGeUOE


Explains everything, in albeit a rather oblique way everything wrong with the hydrogen economy. Hydrogen does not occur naturally, we have to make it, and thus it is not a fuel, it's a storage medium, and a particularly inefficient one at that. I ask you to watch that short video and get back to me and tell me just where he's going wrong.
Last edited by Nobrot on Sun May 14, 2017 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 14, 2017 4:46 am

I agree that hydrogen is nothing but an energy storage - I wouldn't build cars with it.
But since incoming sunlight density is way beyond what we need, efficiency in energy conversion isn't so much the issue as transportability.
Hydrogen (as for example in ammonium liquid) only has to be cheaper/more reliable to transport and store than long-distance power-lines plus batteries.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 14, 2017 4:53 am

ElectricMonk wrote:I agree that hydrogen is nothing but an energy storage - I wouldn't build cars with it.
But since incoming sunlight density is way beyond what we need, efficiency in energy conversion isn't so much the issue as transportability.
Hydrogen (as for example in ammonium liquid) only has to be cheaper/more reliable to transport and store than long-distance power-lines plus batteries.


Nobrot's head just went...

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 14, 2017 4:58 am

Nobrot wrote:
Nobrot's head just went...

Image



not sure why.

The idea is to have massive solar park in remote, highly sunlit places such as Australian Outbacks of Saharan Africa. Building power lines from there to the places where the electricity is needed is daunting and will cause a lot of power-loss on the way.
Even Germany is struggling to build powerlines to connect its offshore windparks in the north to the southern industrial centers - people don't like powerlines, so they have to be dug underground at really high cost.
Compared to that, hydrogen might downright simple.

For local energy production, molten salt or other clever things would be much more efficient, of course.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Nobrot
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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 14, 2017 5:08 am

Analyse this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KErVBeGeUOE
What do you see?

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 14, 2017 5:11 am

I guess you mean what a waste it is to transfer energy back and forth - but that is only because all the pieces are right there on the floor.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 14, 2017 5:22 am

ElectricMonk wrote:I guess you mean what a waste it is to transfer energy back and forth

You can't win.
you can't break even.
You can't get out of the game.
Those pesky laws of thermodynamics.
ElectricMonk wrote:- but that is only because all the pieces are right there on the floor.

With a hydrogen economy you must make the pieces.

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 14, 2017 6:38 am

no one is claiming to have build a Perpetuum Mobile. So please stop trying to be clever about this.

DC transmission becomes pretty useless for distances of 4,000 miles+, even using all the tricks - we can't connect Africa to central Europe or China/Japan to Australia.
If we want to generate solar power there, we have to ship it somehow.
Various forms of hydrogen might or might not be a viable solution.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Gord
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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby Gord » Sun May 14, 2017 7:01 am

I still don't think we should trust someone named Mr. Want.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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ElectricMonk
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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 14, 2017 7:08 am

Gord wrote:I still don't think we should trust someone named Mr. Want.


"Want doesn't Get"
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Hydrogen is making a comeback

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 14, 2017 5:02 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:no one is claiming to have build a Perpetuum Mobile. So please stop trying to be clever about this.

DC transmission becomes pretty useless for distances of 4,000 miles+, even using all the tricks - we can't connect Africa to central Europe or China/Japan to Australia.
If we want to generate solar power there, we have to ship it somehow.
Various forms of hydrogen might or might not be a viable solution.

I assume the economics of shipping hydrogen could make profit for those who have an excess of it? Just saw a show on the shipping of Liquid Natural Gas from and to....forget where. In my ignorance then it would be the cost of production? Which should be near zero if its excess production in the generators location? An excellent application for------the Free Market. Nice when that happens.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


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