Animals may adapt to global warming.

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Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:41 pm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... ce+News%29

Acorn ants have been found to have adapted to warmer temperatures inside cities within a period of 100 years. Acclimation to greater warmth, and evolution to permit adaptation to greater warmth should be enough to prevent global warming by itself causing widespread extinctions.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:19 am

Its one more example why we are not all gonna die
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:25 am

Evolving into an anteater ain't exactly what I had planned on but at least I won't have to live with the sociopaths in their artificial habitats...
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby TJrandom » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:58 am

But probably not an example of why we should all sit back and do nothing.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:10 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170307130801.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Ftop_news%2Ftop_science+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Top+Science+News%29

Acorn ants have been found to have adapted to warmer temperatures inside cities within a period of 100 years. Acclimation to greater warmth, and evolution to permit adaptation to greater warmth should be enough to prevent global warming by itself causing widespread extinctions.

With all due respect (ie: none) this is an incredibly ignorant statement to make. You identify ONE species that has adapted to "warmer temperatures inside cities" therefore nothing to worry about for the other 99.9% of species that cannot so adapt?????

The threat of GLOBAL EXTINCTION has never been about "the warming by itself." Abysmal lack of basics.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:25 pm

Bobbo

It is NEVER just one species. The acorn ant has shown what numerous other species will accomplish.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:32 pm

Though, I find Bobbo's behaviour pretty offensive, I must agree with his point. Facts are facts. This is not about "the warming by itself".

99% of the fauna is dead, party because of us, and because of global warming. This "Animals may adapt to global warming." title is just plain wrong. It's so fkn ignorant I can't find the words. You should be a solo country in the Ipsos "Index of Ignorance" list.

Oh boy. I stop before I jot down something irreversible. Super Skeptic. Hah.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:48 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Though, I find Bobbo's behaviour pretty offensive, I must agree with his point. Facts are facts. This is not about "the warming by itself".

99% of the fauna is dead, party because of us, and because of global warming. This "Animals may adapt to global warming." title is just plain wrong. It's so fkn ignorant I can't find the words. You should be a solo country in the Ipsos "Index of Ignorance" list.

Oh boy. I stop before I jot down something irreversible. Super Skeptic. Hah.


Not 99% of species - most bugs are doing just fine, and they comprise most species. Not 99% of biomass - where it disappears, it is almost always replaced by something else. There is some desertification, and some ocean deadzones that lose biomass.

AGW is a calamity for some species, but not for all, by any means. Increasing human population is having far more impact than AGW.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:27 pm

Oleg,

99% of all species have gone extinct. In 4 billion years. :)

Yes, true bugs are generally fine. If you choose not to look the numbers. They can adapt way better than humans for example. True. But in reality biodiversity suffers big time.

Species replaced by what? Now really? Waste in the ocean? Air in the desert?

I've lived in four continents. You know why Chinese go to Argentina to fish, don't ya? Because
(1) the ocean temperature increased by a 'small' level which was 'sufficient' to kill many species in E-S C Sea. The o temperature increased due to human activity.
(2) Oh boy, chinese eat a lot...

1st)
But to be a bit more sophisticated, this is the "6th extinction crisis", which is 1000-10000 times higher than it was before. And this is because of human activities. 50% of all species will go extinct during the following 100 years.

I urge anyone, the numbers are out there, go take your time and find out yourself. You don't believe the numbers? Then go and research. It might take a few decades, but you'll see it's happening. But actually, it's enough if you can open your eyes. I went to Brazilian rain forest once with a biodiversity you can't imagine. Few years later it was only a jungle with less species, both in quantity and in diversity. (They started deforestation around, it impacts the environment, rain forests turn to jungle.) Again, a few years later, jungle with tourists. But you don't have to travel around to see the 'signs'.

2nd)
Oleg, You may sound off topic, when you say "human population" is a bigger impact. Well. It is true. But. It is the very same topic. Global warming is not only because we burn coal for instance. But because we fart. And we fart a lot. No joking. There are statistics demonstrating your impact of breathing (or farting, or swimming...) compared to the impact of the exhaust gas of your car. I literally started to breath only in sips for a few days. :)

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:36 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

It is NEVER just one species. The acorn ant has shown what numerous other species will accomplish.

LANCE: you only continue in the same vein: abysmal. I rag on you because you know enough to know better...but you choose not too even when on notice. Its why society doesn't improve.

Oleg did a much better job. Still wrong.... but better.

WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE............. and that includes the bugs, or most of them. Need we quibble about what part of the last percent might survive?

Alias: it might be fun for you to make the distinction between offensive posts that you agree with. How many engagements have you had with lance? forming opinions without basis is offensive to some. ................... and very few ever get the humor............Abysmal. Simply abysmal.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Its bugs me each time I read it, so I'll post it: Animals don't adapt, species do. ((for the most part)). Like a comedy pyramid, when basics are wrong, the structure is not sound, and the payoff is...... not funny.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:49 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Abysmal. Simply abysmal.


I agree with facts my dear man. It is how it is. Your style has no effect but keep doing. It is fun.

Engagements with Lance? As you say. :) We'll get better or not. Pure and simple, time is my enemy still I'll be patient.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm

..........but of course style has its effect. Thats why there are different styles.

Abysmal. Simply Abysmal.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:38 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:99% of the fauna is dead, party because of us, and because of global warming.


If you enjoy facts I suggest you back such a bogus claim with evidence (not speculation) . Indeed humans have caused extirpation of many species but mostly on islands by introducing invasive species and predators. Do you have a list of the species not found on island that would make up your 99%???

There is not one single species extinction that can unequivocally be tied to global warming. Claims about polar bears, butterflies, pika, golden toad have all been thoroughly debunked. The warming icon polar bears continue to increase and confirm Inuit knowledge "It Is the Time of the MostT Polar Bears".. Reports of 8 declining populations, dwindled to 3 by 2014, and those three are now reported to be increasing. Those are the facts
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:48 pm

JIm Steele wrote:If you enjoy facts I suggest you back such a bogus claim with evidence (not speculation).


Jim. I did not expressed myself appropriately. Not fauna. Species. 99% of the species. That is the right one. Sorry-sorry.

For that, I beg hard and recuse myself.

On the other hand, time wasted.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:52 pm

It's pretty funny. The Skeptic forum should be a place for critical thinkers. Instead it has evolved into another End of the World Cult

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:55 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Jim. I did not expressed myself appropriately. Not fauna. Species. 99% of the species. That is the right one.



Sorry wrong again. Abyssmal

All you gotta do is show me a list of the 99%.

I promise it will be harder than naming the scientists who make up the illusional 97%
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:10 am

I can hear the rim shots. A cacophony of science denying chart vomiting straw man changing horses while picking cherries.

Assbizmal.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:32 am

I think bobbo is on this forum to recruit for his dooms day cult. Otherwise incoherent speaking in tongues would have no other value.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I can hear the rim shots. A cacophony of science denying chart vomiting straw man changing horses while picking cherries.

Assbizmal.


:D The style bman, killer!


Jim, do I have time to tell you what happens with your poo when you use the english toilet? No fkn hell no.

Should I lecture you about what 'scientific method' is? About statistics, descriptive or predictions? Or should I teach you how to use google?

Maybe you are a denier or a troll or an epistemological pseudo jewel. Deny what you want. Your argument is worthless. Learn, man up.

I won't give you any more of my time.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:54 am

Doomsday cult? Possibly. More likely just stupid.

The 99% extinction figure is an estimate put up by paleontologists, and may well be correct. But it is utterly irrelevant since it has nothing to do with humans or with global warming. The biggest extinction event ever to occur since metazoan evolution was at the end of the Permian period, about 250 million years before the first humans ever appeared on this planet.

Currently, there are ten to twenty species known to go extinct every year. That is, species that existed a decade or three back, and now can be shown not to exist (although such demonstrations have been known to fail). The various moronic environmental organisations, like Greenpeace, that ignore good science, come up with incredible estimates of how many species go extinct each year without any biologist ever catching on. Bobbo is one of their patsies, in that he believes that horsecrap.

Interestingly, for every species known to go extinct, there are something like 100 new species discovered.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:02 am

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Maybe you are a denier or a troll or an epistemological pseudo jewel. Deny what you want. Your argument is worthless. Learn, man up.

I won't give you any more of my time.



ROTFLMAO And maybe you are bobbo's alter ego using another alias.

And true to form you make another totally bogus comment, "99% of the fauna is dead, party because of us, and because of global warming" That's typical bobbo "we all gonna die" psychobabble that can not supported anywhere except in the minds of the delusional.

Indeed Alias you will not give me anymore time because you can not honestly back up your BS.

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Your argument is worthless.


Indeed, there is the old saying "Dont throw pearls before swine" The swine do not appreciate the value of pearls, or pearls of wisdom
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:48 am

As I have posted before, Coral can adapt almost immediately!

http://landscapesandcycles.net/coral-bl ... ebate.html
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:56 am

The polarbear thing is interesting. In the 1950's and 1960's, polar bears were hunted for 'sport' and their numbers fell to an estimated 5,000. Recent aerial studies have shown they have recovered to a level of approximately 25,000. Banning hunting was the key. No data yet exists to show global warming is reducing polar bear numbers. Just speculation.

There is, of course, no doubt that humans are causing many species to go extinct. But empirical evidence shows 10 to 20 species per year, while wild speculation runs to weirdly high numbers. Anyone who quotes the wild speculation is not being very scientific.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:20 am

Yes, the loss of habitat, loss of wetlands, introduction of invasive species and overhunting, have caused extinctions and those are things we can and should address.

In contrast, warming , whether you believe it is natural or anthropogenic, has lengthened the growing season, greened the planet and lowered cold stress. Marine productivity doubled and tripled.

But the Cult of Doom wants to go back to the Little Ice Age when trees stopped growing in the mountains and glaciers covered farms and villages. Go figure.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:18 am

JIm Steele wrote:In contrast, warming , whether you believe it is natural or anthropogenic, has lengthened the growing season, greened the planet and lowered cold stress. Marine productivity doubled and tripled.


What kind of scientist only looks at supporting evidence and doesn't weight it against the opposing evidence?

..................................................... only the self described.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Interestingly, for every species known to go extinct, there are something like 100 new species discovered.

.........that would "really" be interesting if they came into existence rather than simply be discovered.

Lance: the last time we went around the extinction issue, I could find many dire statements and worse predictions but in the time spent...could not come up with any actual list/tally of the species actually thought extinct. I find that suspicious. You'd think such a list would be kept at least for the large body animals? Hmmmm.... there is that list of endangered species? That might be a lead in.

I might be short sighted, but I still don't focus much on animals other than hoomans, even though our fates are very much entwined. Last dire "we are all going to die" declaration was about pollinating bumble bees. I assume that issue can be researched to any point one wishes to reach? = = = = = queuing Jim Steele.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:52 am

Interesting list to review however the categories are determined: http://www.worldwildlife.org/species/di ... 1489139293

Saw a show last week about how the Bumble Bee should be put on the endangered list but the Farm Association kept it off the list because if on the list it would cost farmers an additional $2 per acre. maybe Bill Gates could start the small drone pollinating initiative to prepare us for this cataclysm.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Interesting list to review however the categories are determined: http://www.worldwildlife.org/species/di ... 1489139293

Saw a show last week about how the Bumble Bee should be put on the endangered list but the Farm Association kept it off the list because if on the list it would cost farmers an additional $2 per acre. maybe Bill Gates could start the small drone pollinating initiative to prepare us for this cataclysm.


Yap. I've just talked to a US mellific group, they painted a disastrous picture about how pollinating works now. Bees are dying big time.

Recently, I've relocated again from Asia. Ex, Chinese pollenize manually in the many regions. Gals and guys go around like crazy and pollinate. They miss the bee outfit. sarcasm

Not to mention the other pollinizing species...

Off topic, At least there are more initiatives to pollinate with robots. Pfff. The Gates Foundation have started working on it several years ago, bobbo, with a bunch of other cs. Of course, it means nothing, just fyi.

Cheers

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:06 pm

On pollinating.

Here in NZ, we experienced a disaster in that the varroa bee mite entered the country, causing a substantial loss of bee numbers. Apiarists fought back with miticides, and kind of kept them under control. Wild bee populations, though, plummeted. However, recently, the wild bee population has grown substantially again. I have a wonderful lemon tree, and it is now covered with wild bees in the flowering season. Animals can, and do, adapt to adverse conditions.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:36 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: I have a wonderful lemon tree, and it is now covered with wild bees in the flowering season


: good :

Lance Kennedy wrote: Animals can, and do, adapt to adverse conditions.


I am out of breadth. Thank you for being pure.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:55 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Oleg,

99% of all species have gone extinct. In 4 billion years. :)

It helps to define the parameters. Your first mention of 99% could have referred to many things, including the past week, the past 200k years (since H. sapiens came along), since the Big Bang, etc. It could have been referring to all animals, animal species, species larger than your thumb etc.

You see? Undefined, it was meaningless.

1st)
But to be a bit more sophisticated, this is the "6th extinction crisis", which is 1000-10000 times higher than it was before. And this is because of human activities. 50% of all species will go extinct during the following 100 years.


Higher than what was before? Previous extinction events? The Permian event killed nearly everything, marine and terrestrial. AGW isn't going to unless it turns the Earth into a Venus, which is not a realistic scenario.

2nd)
Oleg, You may sound off topic, when you say "human population" is a bigger impact. Well. It is true. But. It is the very same topic. Global warming is not only because we burn coal for instance. But because we fart. And we fart a lot. No joking. There are statistics demonstrating your impact of breathing (or farting, or swimming...) compared to the impact of the exhaust gas of your car. I literally started to breath only in sips for a few days. :)

If we are to discuss the impact of temperature on species diversity, it is necessary to separate out the changes due to things like deforestation, agriculture, hunting, and so on. They do reduce species diversity, but they will whether the temperature rises or not, and whether CO2 rises or not.

If coral colonies collapse due to warming/CO@ concentrations in the oceans, do we include loss of species which depended on the coral but would have been ok otherwise? (IMO, yes).

What is your source for the estimate of 50% of species going extinct in the next century? Prima facie, I don't believe it, not even including all causes of extinction. The Amazon rainforest could lose such a high percentage, perhaps even higher depending on how far the deforestation goes. But, from what I can see, the effect of temperature there is negligible.

Amphibian populations are in decline all over the place, but there is no consensus on why. Without understanding why they are in decline, it is mere blathering to ascribe it to any particular cause.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:27 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: ....


Oleg. I have friends who must argue with everyone just for fun.
They are still my friends. Though, persuasion is something bsers think they have got. My friends realised that. Of course they have my help.

Words, logic, reason. "Plato never existed." Stick it to your forehead.

Start here:
http://www.pas.va/content/dam/accademia ... nction.pdf

You can take your time and read a little here, here, here and here:
https://www.cbd.int/doc/?meeting=cop-10
http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/bi ... diversity/
http://www.theworldcounts.com/counters/ ... tion_facts
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/focus/so ... index.html

He will have not time for you but you can try to talk to his secretary:
https://www.cbd.int/secretariat/es/

Help yourself:
http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/vasectomy-14387

Take your time.

Of course you will argue for the sake of burning my time.

And I'll have no time for you in any topic.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:44 pm

Another comment on extinction rates.

We cannot say, as AJC said, that extinction rates in this era (possibly to be called the Anthropocene) will be 1,000 to 10,000 times more than normal. We simply do not know, and statements like that are wild speculation.

As I said before, known extinctions run to between 10 and 20 each year. Paleontologists have estimated that the life of a species averages about one million years. If we assume there are between 10 and 20 million species, the known extinction rate is exactly running on the long term average. I am not suggesting that, though. We know that human influence has increased the extinction rate. However, to say 1000 to 10,000 times higher is just total bulldust.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:02 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:On pollinating.

Here in NZ, we experienced a disaster in that the varroa bee mite entered the country, causing a substantial loss of bee numbers. Apiarists fought back with miticides, and kind of kept them under control. Wild bee populations, though, plummeted. However, recently, the wild bee population has grown substantially again. I have a wonderful lemon tree, and it is now covered with wild bees in the flowering season. Animals can, and do, adapt to adverse conditions.


Good that your lemon tree is being pollinated….

The Western honey bee (Apis Mellifera) was brought to New Zealand in 1839 so is non-native. The varroa mite arrived more recently, possibly as early as 1998 and possibly due to an illegal import of an infected queen bee, or with a wild Asian honey bee (Apis Cerana) hive hidden within a shipping container. The Asian honey bee tolerates the verroa mite thru grooming, while the Western honey bee has not developed this grooming behaviour, and thus dies.

So Lance – my question for you… do you know which honey bee you are seeing now? Western or Asian? If it is the Asian - then it really isn`t a case of adaptation, but rather of filling a void. Also, I understand that New Zealand had two indigenous (pre 1839) species, but unsuitable for honey production - so could these be either making a comeback with the die-off of the Western colonies, or just be more visible now?

As an aside… The Asian honey bee works just fine for pollination, but is not commercially successful for honey production when compared to the Western bee. If the Western bee did not exist, the Asian bee would become commercially viable as the world-wide price of honey rose.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:12 am

TJ

I do not think it is the Asian honey bee. According to my friend, Mr. Google, that species is tropical and is not found in NZ.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:38 am

Lots of reasons for the plight of bees but climate is NOT one of them.

Read Plight of the Bumble Bees: How shabby climate analyses and lax peer review promote a dreadful remedy.

http://landscapesandcycles.net/bumblebe ... hange.html
“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." Galileo

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:12 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

I do not think it is the Asian honey bee. According to my friend, Mr. Google, that species is tropical and is not found in NZ.


Yes, I think you are probably right on that, having consulted with Mr. Google myself. It would be interesting to learn more of why the comeback - assuming it is the Western bee.

One thing I noticed after a several years decline, was a sudden revival - not as many colonies, but rather stronger and more productive colonies. Just an assumption on my part, but I think it might simply be because of a lack of competition for flowers. Over saturation having been replaced with a bees` banquet.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:03 pm

TJrandom wrote: It would be interesting to learn more of why the comeback - assuming it is the Western bee.



The local newspaper article I read (and it MUST be correct if it is in the paper!) suggested that the bees had learned to eject the mite.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:16 pm

Terrestrial animals outside the tropics already experience a range of temperatures through the diurnal and the seasonal cycles. The differences due to global warming are small in comparison.

Some critters may expand their range. It has been noted that some species ranges increase in altitude, supposedly to escape the heat, but I've seen little observation that the specimens at the lower elevations disappear. Has anyone else seen literature on disappearance at lower elevations or latitudes re terrestrial animals?

It would seem to me that if it is more of an increase in range than movement of range, then the critter's territory will include a wider range of terrain, flora, and perhaps even predators and prey. That could lead to increases in speciation, which takes place much more slowly, and would not yet be observable.

Marine environments below a few dozen meters have a much more stable temperature, and I would expect marine animals to be more strongly affected by even small changes.
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