Animals may adapt to global warming.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:32 pm

Good points, Oleg.

I have thoughts on the recent articles about bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef. The catastrophists believe it is the end of the coral reef. But I have scuba dived many parts of Australia, and also north of Australia (Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands) as well as the Red Sea, which gives me a slightly different perspective. Those places are always warmer than the Great Barrier Reef, and they have lush and lavish corals. If the waters round the Great Barrier Reef warm up and kill local corals, that should mean two things.

1. Warmer water corals will colonise the Great Barrier Reef.
2. Great Barrier Reef corals will colonise the coast and the islands further south, where it is cooler.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:08 am

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Of course you will argue for the sake of burning my time.

And I'll have no time for you in any topic.

Why the hating on Oleg? More than most here he is less confrontational and only argumentative if you mean adding his own informed position. Course, now, I've only read casually, and only once.

............but I post because who cares if anyone is confrontational, argumentative...and so forth. Shirley we can all parse out what we don't like and look for the pearls? And Oleg provides many pearls. If not for you so far, give him time..... and tell him he's wrong AND WHY when you have that opinion. Rough recollection: about 70% agreement with Oleg myself...meaning I could well be wrong on 30%? Ha....ha.

I'm not just trying to lower my "Grumpy Warning" light. I enjoy disagreeing with Oleg as the opportunity does not arise all that often.

There is still (too much) tinge in this thread that the threat/harm of AGW is from the warming directly. ITS NOT THE WARMING...directly, but all the things warming causes. WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE, from the sequalia...not the warming directly.

I suspect with bees and pollination that like AGW its not the issue of species becoming extinct or having to relocate but rather the RATE of the change. The bee issue is much like the coral issue. One species is harmed but over time, other species already adapted to the new conditions take over. For Bees...probably more directly human related, for corals more the warming oceans.

Everything a mix of issues....... giving the single issue zealots much to rant about.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:19 am

Bobbo

I really wish you would not keep proclaiming that we are all going to die. You may not quite realise it, but that sentiment is a mark of the total fool. I am not accusing you of being a fool, but I am suggesting that you refrain from making yourself look like one.

There are a lot of people who get their kicks from predicting disaster, and believing their own predictions, as if that made them a part of some select elite. Thus giving their crappy little ego's a boost. This is probably a big part of conspiracy theories. There was even a book written (around 2001, IIRC)_which described the psychology of that attitude, written to show that this mental state was actually pathological. Optimism is a better approach.

Global warming is real, and damaging, and caused by human activity. Only a nutter would argue otherwise, like America's current president. Nuff said. But even when we recognise all that, we do not have to claim that every consequence of global warming is going to be 100% destructive. Nothing else is, so why should global warming?

Recognise things in perspective. Not from some radical, extremist, catastrophic view point.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:43 am

I do it to pull your chain............. its funny.............but also............TO THE POINT.

Every "writer" should be more flexible and appreciative of memes in the wild.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:15 am

Flexible is fine. But it is also good to be scientifically accurate when writing on science subjects.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Flexible is fine. But it is also good to be scientifically accurate when writing on science subjects.

Well, thats good to know. So.... putting on your flexible lederhosen: are we "ALL GOING TO DIE"------- or not?

If your spidey sense is not already on high alert: please do so.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:39 pm

We are all going to die some time in the next 80 years. However, none of that will have anything to do with global warming.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:54 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:We are all going to die some time in the next 80 years. However, none of that will have anything to do with global warming.


I`d have said the next 120 years, just to be safe...

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:We are all going to die some time in the next 80 years. However, none of that will have anything to do with global warming.

Unless you like climbing on glaciers.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:48 pm

Bobbo ignores several important facts. Like the maximum warming is likely to be about 4 Celsius and the world has been through warmings before that were substantially higher, such as the Cretaceous warming that reached 6 to 10 Celsius more than the present. During those times, life was thriving.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:We are all going to die some time in the next 80 years. However, none of that will have anything to do with global warming.

You didn't put those lederhosen into a vat of deer fat did you? Let your fat friend wear them for a day or two?

"WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE": Inflexible response given above. Its wrong as most inflexible responses are. There have already been 10's of Thousands of deaths racked up to "Heat Waves" alone across Europe...many in France? Old people...can't take the heat and no air conditioning. This will only increase in the coming years.

"WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE": Flexible Response of course includes our kiddies and grandkiddies....but more likely besides the heat stroke victims, will be our great grand kiddies or maybe even another generation or two later..... but it is coming. Its physics. Physics right now that the INFLEXIBLE can ignore....which is sad because by ignoring at this early stage, the final act becomes more certain=====ABSENT some kind of break through and huge investment in co2 sequestering technologies. I, being very flexible, include the notion of human culture and civilization being terminated/greatly thrown back into another dark age.

So, of declining interest to me is whether your criticism is based more on your personality or your lack of insight into the subject. What do you think Lance? are we all going to die? You seem to think we can adapt.

"It was warmer during the cretaceous" //// when there were no humans (which is irrelevant but on par with your comment).....BUT the POINT IS: not the actual temperature but rather the rate of change. BASICS...... you utterly fail to grasp.

Now, put your lederhosen back on. Its actually kinda embarrassing.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:27 am

Bobbo

Your views are actually ridiculous.
Global warming is not going to kill off the human race. It will have nasty consequences, sure. But humans are the most flexible animals on the planet. As I have pointed out before, we are the only mammals to have taken ourselves to all continents and lived there. We adapted to equatorial heat, deserts, arctic frigidity, tropical islands, and even have living quarters in Antarctica.

Heat waves kill thousands, sure. But cold snaps kill tens of thousands. The human species evolved in tropical conditions, and cold weather has always been harsher, killing more people, than hot weather. For Finagle's sake, humans live in the Sahara Desert with almost no water, and temperatures that reach 55 Celsius. So no. Global warming, while not nice, will not kill us off.

And that is without taking into account technology. People now live in air conditioned buildings and drive air conditioned vehicles. Farmers on a hot day plow the field in total comfort in the air conditioned cab of their tractors. We can expect climate control technology to be vastly improved before global warming has too big an impact.

Biologists are diligently creating new crops that grow with less water, and under hotter conditions. Hydroponics produce more food per acre than any previous technology. Even citified Singapore is growing fresh vegetables in highly intensive hydroponics gardens.

Your pessimism, Bobbo, reaches heights that could be described, if I was being impolite, as extreme stupidity.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:41 am

Ha, ha............so Lance: we take opposing views. That is excellent.

Do you agree or not that AGW has killed 10's of Thousands by heat stroke already, with more to come, air conditioning or not. Or do you rely on the scientific definition/requirements of proof.....where on this subject "nothing" at all can be proven one way or the other?

Little baby steps.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:05 am

Bobbo
I agree that it is possible global warming may have done that, but as you said, it is not proven. It is not even demonstrated to a high level of evidence.

Do you agree that the Little Ice Age killed literally millions of people by the effects of cold (which includes crop failures and famine), because that is a fact that is true?

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:44 am

Well..........there you go, as fast as you possibly could. There is no proof for death from AGW, but there is proof of death from Little Ice Age?

How do you make the distinction?
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:12 am

The Little Ice Age deaths are very real - most due to crop failure and subsequent hunger.
The deaths during heat waves are also real. What is not demonstrated with enough evidence to be truly scientific is the idea that those heat waves would not have happened without global warming. We have always had the odd heat wave, and deaths associated. The odd heat wave in today's world may or may not be related to global warming.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:32 am

I will avoid the reductio absurdum argument as to what caused the crop failure and accept your answer because frankly, I don't see what the Little Ice Age has to do with AGW. If you think its relevant in any tiny respect...can you connect the dots? If its too the point that climate varies....thats a given.

So.....crop failures. How about the increasing droughts around the World the one fairly well reported on that long continuous drought "brought on and predicted by" AGW caused crop failure across the Middle East, especially hard in Syria forcing one million people off the land and into cities. Once there, they protested for food and other social services leading directly to the civil war. Lets just assume all the above is true. Would that be deaths from AGW or not? Then as you will, as I stated from the start: there will NEVER BE PROOF OF AGW: even when New york City is 20 feet under water. You know: climate is just variable.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:25 am

Animals -as a kingdom- will adapt. Of that I have no doubt. But a lot of species won't.

I don't quibble in the details, but it's fun to think about. Like a zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, they survive, but not in any way we're familiar with. It's a whole 'nother ecology.

And I've heard the old excuse for doing nothing, "Oh, that happens all the time".
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:47 pm

The detail at issue is whether or not hooman beings will be one of the surviving species. I say no. lance says yes. I am not 100% certain about it except that its a constantly rising risk along with our civilization going away always the more likely by several exponents.

..............and it doesn't happen all the time. if the "it" is change. Change happens all the time but human forced extremely rapid change only happens with hoomans..............and meteor strikes.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:25 pm

It's my forecast if we don't get life to the stars this civilisation, it'll never happen. Because we've used up all the easy resources.

Earth has this one, single shot, to reproduce.

There won't be another Metal Age, except those twanged on animal guts and skins.

And this video will represent the pinnacle of Human achievement to the whole galaxy.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Just watched Carl Sagan on the Johnny Carson show. topic of the speed of light being a limit on what Hoomans should imagine and that we didn't like limits but that the speed of light was necessary to have the universe "make sense" according to Carl.

.............ie: we ain't colonizing anywhere but Earth. Time, distance, energy, money.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:54 pm

We're dead meat. We're too stupid. We failed.

Maybe.

But we certainly will if we don't even try.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:44 pm

On getting to the stars.

It is very true that the speed of light is absolute. That does not mean it is impossible to reach the stars. The stars in our corner of the galaxy average a separation of 4 light years, and the closest other star system to us (the Alpha Centauri triple star system) is 4.3 light years away.

There are three interstellar drives that I am aware of, which could (in theory) boost a starship to a high fraction of light speed.
1. The ion drive. These already exist, and have been used in exploring our solar system in robot probes. There is no obvious upper speed limit, and a well developed ion drive might push a star ship to 0.1c.
2. The Orion Drive. Basically exploding nukes under your tail. For some reason, this idea makes me nervous! However, in theory, it might boost a starship to 0.5c.
3. The fusion torch drive. This is further in the future, and we cannot (at present) make one. But in theory, another 0.5c.

Being conservative, suppose the first starship had an ion drive, requiring ten years to accelerate to 0.1c (and another ten years to decelerate), then it would take 55 years to get to Alpha Centauri. This would not be easy, but not impossible. Assuming an extended life span in the future, and a starship big enough to be like a small city, then it becomes doable.

So I suggest that travel to other star systems would be possible, and likely, although not for many centuries.

I would add another idea. I see no real point to colonising planets. Better to build space habitats and be mobile. A space habitat that rotates for gravity, and has a 3 meter water ice shell around it to absorb cosmic rays, would be a perfectly good home for people. The smaller detritus of any stellar system (asteroids, comets, small moons, planetary ring systems) contain vast amounts of everything needed for survival.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:53 pm

I'd be satisfied if we could shoot a petri dish at a bunch of likely extra-solar planets. I am a male, afterall. Spray and pray.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:12 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:It's my forecast if we don't get life to the stars this civilisation, it'll never happen. Because we've used up all the easy resources.

Earth has this one, single shot, to reproduce.

There won't be another Metal Age,


This is one of those statements that stimulates me to disagree. In truth, I do not know if MM is right or not, but I do know it is a defeatist attitude.

Human ingenuity is unlimited. If civilisation collapsed, the next one to arise would definitely be low on metals. But there would be plenty of waste metal from the previous civilisation to glean. Not only that, but there will always be heaps of low level metal ores. After all, the Earth's crust is 5% iron and 8% aluminium. Perhaps the smaller amount of gleanable metals might give the new civilisation the means to learn to harvest those lower level ores?

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Paul Anthony » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:09 pm

JIm Steele wrote:
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I promise it will be harder than naming the scientists who make up the illusional 97%

About that infamous 97%...If the government identified the other 3%, I'll bet they lost there grant money. :lol:
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:18 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:There won't be another Metal Age

In truth, I do not know if MM is right or not, but I do know it is a defeatist attitude.

More defeatist than saying, "Ah, bugger it. If we {!#%@} it up, some intelligent creature might evolve in 100 million years and pick up the pieces"?
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:28 pm

From the Science Deniers Dictionary: Defeatist: Recognizing and dealing with Reality as exemplified by the laws of Physics.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:40 pm

Bobbo

The laws of physics cannot be defeated. True. For this reason, there will never be faster than light travel, antigravity, force field shields, tractor beams, or the like.

But where there is a way without trying to defeat the laws of physics, humans have a big success rate.

On global warming.
It is quite true that global warming will bring lots of changes, and some of those changes will be very undesirable. But humans are good at taking a lemon and making lemonade. There will be lots of drought, but overall rainfall will increase, not be reduced. There was a period some thousands of years back when the world had a temporary warm period, and the Sahara Desert had more rain than today. Wildlife and human villages existed in areas that today are far too dry.

GLobal warming will make some parts of the world harsher, and some parts less harsh. Humans are flexible and will adapt. On top of that, the growth in technological abilities will enable something even better than simple adaptation. It will permit human welfare to grow even more.

I was in an argument some time back with a person who had fallen for the Naturalistic Fallacy. That is, he believed that more natural things were superior and unnatural, man-made things were worse. I pointed out to him that the whole flow of human history, and even prehistory, was a movement to a less natural way of life. The consequence was increasing life span, increasing nutrition, reducing disease, and more toys to play with. All in line with heading into a less natural way of life. Going more technological, and less natural, leads to better human welfare, and this will continue in spite of global warming.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:43 pm

The Earth has cooled and warmed before. Animals are still here.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:59 pm

And unfortunately, we're the smartest ones. The creme de la creme.

We do it now, or we all die.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:19 am

MM

There are things that might kill off the human species. But global warming is not one of them.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:24 am

You say that with such confidence.

Convince me.

Cascade events are real. Butterfly Effect. Call it what you will.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:MM

There are things that might kill off the human species. But global warming is not one of them.

It could render our technological civilization hors d'combat.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:29 am

I like cheese.
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:37 am

Major Malfunction wrote:And unfortunately, we're the smartest ones. The creme de la creme.

We do it now, or we all die.


Now that is truly a major malfunction. Bobbo's end of the world cult gains another! ROTFLMAO
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Jim Steele » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:40 am

Ahhhhhh The butterfly effect. Here is how the bogus butterfly effect created global extinction of butterflies. ROTFLMAO

http://landscapesandcycles.net/American ... truth.html
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:46 am

Major Malfunction wrote:You say that with such confidence.

Convince me.



I am sure you are well aware, MM, of the old saying - "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still."

When people hold a prejudiced opinion, based on gut feel instead of credible evidence, they cannot be convinced.

But my view is that global warming, while not good, will not be an existential disaster. The reason is simple. Humanity is already adapted to a wider range of climate types than will ever be generated by global warming. In most of the world, warming will not exceed 4 Celsius, and we already have people living in temperatures of over 35 Celsius and up to 55 Celsius. They have adapted to extremes well beyond anything global warming will throw at us.

The continued existence of the human species is not even at question. More important is the impact on finances and human welfare. We will have to make some adaptation to avoid problems in those areas.

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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:49 am

Do you remember how the dinosaurs got their start?
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Re: Animals may adapt to global warming.

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:02 am

JIm Steele wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:We do it now, or we all die.

Now that is truly a major malfunction. Bobbo's end of the world cult gains another! ROTFLMAO

We crash into Andromeda in 3 billion years. The Sun will swallow Earth in 5 billion years, if crashing into another galaxy doesn't send us all flying into intergalactic space. Long before that, the Sun will heat-up too much for water on Earth. Estimates are between 100 million to a billion years.

And before you know it, in a hundred and fifty trillion years, we're huddling around the only black hole in the entire Universe, for warmth. Because that black hole is one of the last things in the Universe to evaporate, as everything in the sky turns from red to pitch black.

I suppose you could say I have somewhat of a bleak outlook.
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