Climate Change - Natural or Not.

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Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 am

Y'all, haven't been around much of late, some of you will say, "Thank Christ for that". But given there is no "Christ", who cares.

Anyway, came across the attached article on climate change and thought it might engender some robust discussion, criticism, put down, or some other response. And I'm sure my mate (Austalianism) bobbo_the_Pragmatist will have a very forceful view of this suggestion.

http://www.anonews.co/nasa-satellite-pi ... nipulated/

Anyway, go for it, I'm sure there will be some input. Cheers.

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 am

That`s nuttin... you should look at corn fields... all plowed and planted in rows, as far as the eye can see. And rice fields too... all plowed with tractors or even beasties...

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:48 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Y'all, haven't been around much of late,.....
I thought you were posting way too much.....as demonstrated by what I take to be perversely moronic link to woo secret cabal radio wave manipulations. Simply....beneath the worst.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:06 pm

Someone posted that link a while ago. It's bizarre thinking. Do these same people go to the beach and blame television signals for the waves lapping the shore?
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 pm

I thought those ocean waves were from wave powered electricity generation machines - running in reverse. Or maybe from surers, pumping their boards so as to stretch out ther rides... :roll:

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:02 pm

Ocean waves are caused by all the fish waving their fins in unison, trying to drive the fishermen back to shore.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:28 pm

Tide goes in, tide goes out....
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:57 pm

Gord wrote:Tide goes in, - wash cycle
tide goes out - rinse cycle....
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:05 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gord wrote:Tide goes in, - wash cycle
tide goes out - rinse cycle....
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:48 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gord wrote:Tide goes in, - wash cycle
tide goes out - rinse cycle....
…....Lather and Repeat/// That would be O'Reilly's Job.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:17 am

It snowed in Kelowna yesterday.

Checkmate, atheists global warmingistas.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:Y'all, haven't been around much of late,.....
I thought you were posting way too much.....as demonstrated by what I take to be perversely moronic link to woo secret cabal radio wave manipulations. Simply....beneath the worst.
Ah, Bobbo me mate. :D Knew I could depend on you for some idiotic, should I say moronic (not nice you know), response that says absolutely nothing about the subject matter.

I have no particular view on the subject of the article. In fact I have no particular view on climate change, or whatever its' called these days. Just thought I would mark my return to the forum with an article that might engender some heated debate on the subject matter. Silly me :roll: Guess nothing has changed during my absence.

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:14 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Ah, Bobbo me mate. :D Knew I could depend on you for some idiotic, should I say moronic (not nice you know), response that says absolutely nothing about the subject matter.
That's what I tried to do. :(

:kicksdirt:
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am

I tried first! I did. Did so! :x :x

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:51 am

Phoenix: you should.

There is nothing controversial or interesting about your link. Its just: silly. I'm glad we maintained standards in your absence. You survived. Good spirits and all...………..
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Phoenix: you should.

There is nothing controversial or interesting about your link. Its just: silly. I'm glad we maintained standards in your absence. You survived. Good spirits and all...………..
Bobbo, I guess you're saying I should have a view on the subject. Trouble is mate, every time I think I have a grasp of the subject, I read something else that says "No your idea is wrong"!

I might claim to be many things, but a scientist is not one of them. One of the skills I do claim is that of a forensic researcher. Add to that my naturally skeptic make up, and well I have a hard time believing anyone - and that goes beyond the subject matter at hand.

But Bobbo, you state that "There is nothing controversial or interesting about your link. Its just: silly.". Mate, that is the most scientific (NOT) statement I've heard in a while. You certainly haven't changed, that's for sure. You are still quick with the put down, but very slow (if at all) with any substantive argument to support your standard response of a suggestion being BS.

And in closing, Bobbo, can you give us a scientific, or at least a skeptics, interpretation of the adjective "silly".

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:24 pm

P: what happens when you burn fossil fuel?
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by robinson » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:P: what happens when you burn fossil fuel?
You release stored solar energy. And increase your life span and happiness.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:05 pm

R: that's half right, and life span is decreasing in the GOUSA....for different reasons than AGW, but still...…..

No....Phoenix wants to play the dumb-dumb game, so I'm starting at Square One. I've not played this game before, making it up as I go along...….kinda like advancing that radio waves are using weather as a weapon for nefarious purposes AND THEN.....faking that you are surprised not to be taken seriously...…...as if an entire roll of aluminum foil wrapped around your head is not a "clue."
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by robinson » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:47 pm

Phoenix76 wrote: Anyway, came across the attached article on climate change and thought it might engender some robust discussion, criticism, put down, or some other response..
Disdain is the best response.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:29 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:R: that's half right, and life span is decreasing in the GOUSA....for different reasons than AGW, but still...…..

No....Phoenix wants to play the dumb-dumb game, so I'm starting at Square One. I've not played this game before, making it up as I go along...….kinda like advancing that radio waves are using weather as a weapon for nefarious purposes AND THEN.....faking that you are surprised not to be taken seriously...…...as if an entire roll of aluminum foil wrapped around your head is not a "clue."
:?: ....Bobbo I'm not playing any dumb game, I'm simply putting it to you to give some reason why you think the article is BS. And it might well be. But you have yet to put one argument to the negative side of a debate. If I made a statement, and I did not, that radio waves are using weather as a weapon for nefarious purposes, I would be expected to substantiate my statement.

A debate on a subject doesn't go "I state it is so; I state it is not so", both sides of the debate must present reasons for their claims. But then my learned friend, I don't recall you ever trying to support your view with anything like fact. Oh, I think you may have quoted somebody else, or a website, but those are not Bobbo's quotes or even quasi scientific beliefs.

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:02 am

P: you are right...……….but only if you are anywhere close to reasonable.

So.….what happens when you burn fossil fuels?
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:P: you are right...……….but only if you are anywhere close to reasonable.

So.….what happens when you burn fossil fuels?
You're a remarkable fellow, Bobbo. Firstly you don't put forth an argument, and now you answer with a question. You're not a politician be any chance??

In all honesty, Climate Change is a big subject here in Oz at the moment, and not because of any CO2 or any other so called climate warming/change gases. Our problem is what electricity is costing us. And that is a real problem when you consider that cold homes are linked to the spike in deaths in Australia - more than 5000 - each winter. The elderly and poor people cannot afford to heat their homes. Sad part about that is we have coal and uranium to burn (pun intended) but our idiot politicians, both sides, want to cut greenhouse gases and use green energy.

Under the Paris agreement, Australia must cut emissions - CO2 and Methane - by at least 26% of the 2005 levels by 2020. Not going to happen.

The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted. In Australia, the predicted disasters have not happened - our dams haven't drained, the drought is not permanent, cyclones have actually decreased, and the world has had record grain crops.

But will this deal stop global warming? No. Professor Bjorn Lomborg has calculated that the UN's own climate models show that the cuts promised under this agreement - if achieved - would slow warming by just 0.05 of a degree. Yep that's right, ONE HALF OF ONE TENTH OF A DEGREE.

In Australia we will see no difference, our emissions are too small - just 1.5% of the world's man made emissions, which are just 3% of all emissions. Australia's Chief Scientist, Alan Finkel, admitted that even if Australia shut down completely, the effect on temperatures would be "essentially nothing".

And of course the other question we are asking over here is, "Are big emitters pulling their weight?" Frankly, no. The Paris Agreement lets China, the world's #1 emitter, nearly double its own emissions. The #2, USA, has torn up its agreement. And India, #3, is also allowed to increase emissions. A report last month by Climate Action Network Europe found that all 28 member nations of the European Union weren't meeting their own targets.

One could go on interminably, but to sum up, at least from the Australian peoples perspective -

"The Paris Agreement is a useless fix to a fake catastrophe that hurts more than it helps. It binds Australians while freeing the world's biggest emitters. Why on earth are we still part of it?"

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:05 am

... Why on earth are we still part of it?"
Erm... because you are still on earth?

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:19 am

Phoenix76 wrote: The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted. In Australia, the predicted disasters have not happened - our dams haven't drained, the drought is not permanent, cyclones have actually decreased, and the world has had record grain crops.
My gut tells me this is totally bogus...unless its from a fantasy website such as your OP. Got a link, or a more specific claim? Until them: this is just hysterical BS.
Phoenix76 wrote: But will this deal stop global warming? No. Professor Bjorn Lomborg has calculated that the UN's own climate models show that the cuts promised under this agreement - if achieved - would slow warming by just 0.05 of a degree. Yep that's right, ONE HALF OF ONE TENTH OF A DEGREE.
He's a good man. I've never heard him go that low for ineffectiveness. What special access to you have to all this HORRIFYING information?
Phoenix76 wrote: "The Paris Agreement is a useless fix to a fake catastrophe that hurts more than it helps. It binds Australians while freeing the world's biggest emitters.
You do know a worthless fix says nothing about the original problem/issue? You seem to totally confabulate the two.
Phoenix76 wrote: Why on earth are we still part of it?"
Indeed. I have to wonder why your gubmint doesn't make a formal request to the climate engineers to stop manipulating the weather. I mean.....jeeze!!!

I am impressed at the amount of posing you engage in. Very amusing.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:26 am

Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:55 am

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
Um Gord, You will need to better explain "Um, what?' for me to give any answer.

Bobbo, you never provide links or support any of your statements. so I suggest you go and do some Google research into what I have put forward. Think you will be able to confirm what I have said. At least, if you are a half-way decent researcher??????????

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:23 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
Um Gord, You will need to better explain "Um, what?' for me to give any answer.
Where did you get that misinformation?

Although temperatures had been running lower than the central estimate of IPCC projections in recent years, they were, and are, still within the projected 'envelope'.... Have the deniers been claiming that the IPCC made only one central estimate? Because in reality they've always allowed for a range of model spread*, like this: http://www.ghgonline.org/images/ipcc5d.gif






*and this is what "model spread" refers to: http://variable-variability.blogspot.co ... y-nwp.html
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:24 am

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
Um Gord, You will need to better explain "Um, what?' for me to give any answer.
Where did you get that misinformation?

Although temperatures had been running lower than the central estimate of IPCC projections in recent years, they were, and are, still within the projected 'envelope'.... Have the deniers been claiming that the IPCC made only one central estimate? Because in reality they've always allowed for a range of model spread*, like this: http://www.ghgonline.org/images/ipcc5d.gif

Gord, thanks for your reply. At least you have come back to me with links to rebut my statements.

As a true skeptic, I cannot make a decision in this matter as there does not seem to be any provable evidence. There seems to be a lot of emotional "evidence" put forth, but I still don't see the proof.

I appreciate the charts etc that you have linked. But those charts themselves are very broad, and so leave a lot of room for debate.

Please understand that I am not a climate change denier. Our climate has been changing since the big bang, and it will continue to change. There can never be any argument about that, that's how it is.

The quotes that I posted on here are from an article printed in our daily paper by an opinion writer for the newspaper. He is an independent journalist. I know that, that does not make him infallible, but his arguments seem to carry some force, and perhaps it is up to us to prove him wrong. Keep in mind that his statements are relevant to Australian conditions. And this seems to be a problem when discussing the pros and cons of the subject.

The variance in evidence appears to very significantly depending where you are non this planet of ours. The whole point of my post was to engender some debate on the subject. Unfortunately we have some members who never put up proper arguments, so the whole debate slinks to a slanging match between opposite points of view.

From our point here in Australia, most people feel we are being conned and ripped off in power costs.

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:48 am

So, an op-ed journalist have more force than hundreds of scientists in the field? That's fair and balanced...

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:48 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:I appreciate the charts etc that you have linked. But those charts themselves are very broad, and so leave a lot of room for debate.
What does that even mean?
The quotes that I posted on here are from an article printed in our daily paper by an opinion writer for the newspaper. He is an independent journalist.
Please tell me you're not talking about David Cohen. He's a conspiracy theorist who believes the Mars rovers were actually in Canada rather than on Mars and that planes are spraying chemtrails.

You shouldn't get your science from independent journalists.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by landrew » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:24 pm

Every time a human burns fossil carbon, the climate is affected. I'm not aware of anyone challenging that fact, however the direst predictions are another matter. Some would say, the direr the better, as it will force us into a fully compliant, non-consuming lifestyle that much sooner.
More political than scientific all around.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:34 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
Um Gord, You will need to better explain "Um, what?' for me to give any answer.

Bobbo, you never provide links or support any of your statements. so I suggest you go and do some Google research into what I have put forward. Think you will be able to confirm what I have said. At least, if you are a half-way decent researcher??????????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gords challenge is quite clear. Your response is just a dodge....just as is your response to me.

I counter your "you never provid links" with my perception that I provide more links than most. So, I am willing to bet my left nut that I at least do something more than "never" which is only your BS lack of insight and laziness to support what you post yourself. eg: See Gord.

So...... you want anyone else to confirm your tinfoil hat crazy position? I decline. You aren't even on your way to the ballpark. Everyone knows the radio waves cancel each other out and its the unicorns stamping their feet that ...... that ..... don't cause anything at all because temperatures have changed since the beginning of time.

Just plain: stoopid.

I've posted the link about 15 times: tell us Phoenix....why does the sea level continue to rise????
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:41 pm

landrew wrote:Every time a human burns fossil carbon, the climate is affected. I'm not aware of anyone challenging that fact, however the direst predictions are another matter. Some would say, the direr the better, as it will force us into a fully compliant, non-consuming lifestyle that much sooner.
More political than scientific all around.
Are you aware of what planet you are on? aka: what do you think is backing up Climate Change Denial?????

Politics is politics, Science is Science, Phonenix is bat {!#%@} crazy: don't confuse the three.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:51 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The planet has warmed far less than the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted.
Um, what?
Um Gord, You will need to better explain "Um, what?' for me to give any answer.
Where did you get that misinformation?

Although temperatures had been running lower than the central estimate of IPCC projections in recent years, they were, and are, still within the projected 'envelope'.... Have the deniers been claiming that the IPCC made only one central estimate? Because in reality they've always allowed for a range of model spread*, like this: http://www.ghgonline.org/images/ipcc5d.gif

Gord, thanks for your reply. At least you have come back to me with links to rebut my statements.

As a true skeptic, I cannot make a decision in this matter as there does not seem to be any provable evidence.
Double: BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Says the fool LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS GLOBAL WARMING. And then for the causation part: you have to look at other charts...........and why do that when you can't incorporate anything that does not comport with the lie you tell us that you are a "true" skeptics. You do know skeptics don't label themselves after just skeptic???? Only nut cases do that. Its a self affirmation as they can't get it elsewhere.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by robinson » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:33 am

landrew wrote:Every time a human burns fossil carbon, the climate is affected..
Hahahahaha
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:37 am

Well as I see it, ever since this little 3rd class green planet of ours came into existence some time after the big bang, its climate has continued to change. Don't think we can argue about that. And I believe that our climate will continue to change. No argument about that either.

When this subject first came up for debate, it was called global warming. After a couple of years, or whatever, it became climate change. Well, suddenly, the world wasn't really warming anymore. Yes the climate was still changing. That is the only constant in this argument. And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.

Over the millennia, our little green planet has survived. And survived quite well. Our planet, and its inhabitants, are very adaptable. They have adapted so far, and, again in my amateurish opinion, they will continue to adapt.

Not saying that we shouldn't try to curb activities that are seen to endanger our lifestyle, but I believe the controllers of our world have us by the short and curlies, and they are making billions out of it. E.G. Mr. Al Gore. He's a fairly big player in the scheme of things, but there are others above him. And if you don't believe our world is controlled by such people, then you live in fairyland.

We are all banging our heads against the proverbial wall over this conundrum, but that will not alter anything. We cannot change nature, perhaps a small amount, but the controllers are having a field day at our expense. As an Aussie, I like your President. See he is not a politician, he's a business man, and that's how he looks at life. I'll take him anyday over the crap we have here.

We need to wake up!! We are never going to change the way most people think and behave. Won't happen!!!. People will be people, and they will act in the best interest of themselves. You will never educate them to the ways of the world controllers, or the climate change experts. Will not happen.

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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:56 am

Phoenix76 wrote: Not saying that we shouldn't try.
FIFY.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:07 am

Phoenix76 wrote:When this subject first came up for debate, it was called global warming. After a couple of years, or whatever, it became climate change. Well, suddenly, the world wasn't really warming anymore. Yes the climate was still changing. That is the only constant in this argument. And in my very amateur opinion, that will never change.
These are things I've heard from global warming deniers before, and they're all false.

The original term was "climate change". Later "global warming" became a subject of concern because it would lead to climate change. There was no point along the way where the world had stopped warming, despite the claims of the deniers.

So yes, people are concerned about climate change, which is when your local habitat turns from one climate type to another, such as prairie turning to desert. And that never stopped being a concern. But when global warming turned out to be happening, it was seen as an obvious cause of climate change, so everyone who recognised it became concerned about it. It's not a question of one or the other; both of them are bad things that are happening.
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Re: Climate Change - Natural or Not.

Post by Phoenix76 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:39 pm

Gord wrote: So yes, people are concerned about climate change, which is when your local habitat turns from one climate type to another, such as prairie turning to desert. And that never stopped being a concern. But when global warming turned out to be happening, it was seen as an obvious cause of climate change, so everyone who recognised it became concerned about it. It's not a question of one or the other; both of them are bad things that are happening.
So you are saying that "Climate Change" is a bad thing. My point is that "Climate Change" has been happening ever since our little Green Planet was born and it will continue to happen. Good or Bad??? Don't really know. Probably both. But you are claiming it is bad, so therefore it has been bad ever since the start. Just part of the evolution of Earth et al. That being the case, we are not going to stop it.

And global warming is still a moot point IMHO. Over time earth has warmed and cooled, and no doubt will continue to do so. Ice ages have come and gone before humans evolved, so who was to blame for that. Perhaps the dinosaurs?