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No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:01 am
by Nessie
In an attempt to derail a thread on documents, VFX has been claiming;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29662&start=240#p662333

" Fair enough if there was one line but the claim made is that 1.5 million people were gassed. At say 1000 people a line, that is 1500 lines of people suddenly not recorded or photographed. Pretty amazing aye Kelpie."

since aerial photos do not show large lines of people queuing into the kremas, it did not happen. When asked about specifics of the aerial photos VFX responded

"Go and find your own information. It is clear there is no data and hence no evidence of these lines of people..That is the end of the Birkenau claim."

OK then, here is a source of photos;

https://catalog.archives.gov/search?q=* ... Sort%20asc

before going through them, for which I know there is none which has a queue heading into a krema, we need to consider the following;

1 - deniers would have us believe the people transported to Birkenau were not gassed and instead left the camp. But, there are also no huge queues of thousands leaving Birkenau, nor is such a line of people seen in the open anywhere in the entire Auschwitz camp complex. So, using VFX's own claim, it is now proved they did not leave the camp.

2 - there was an air raid system at the camp and the camp was bombed, indeed, the aerial photo from the 13th Sept 1944 shows bombs falling. People take cover during air raids, even if that is just back into trains, or even under them. Some photos still do show people caught out in the open.

3 - there would only be a large queue into a krema shortly after a selection had taken place. Straightaway we can discount any photo that does not have a train in the camp as there has been no mass arrival at that point.

4 - the photos are not crystal clear and the areas around the kremas have dark patches. Kremas IV and V had trees around them. We would not necessarily see any queues.

The lack of queues in the aerial photos is not the slam dunk deniers like to believe.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:18 am
by Nessie
There is also an explanation as to the lack of queues, ironically from the documents about the kremas;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

List of constructions of 31 March 1942 on “5 horse stable barracks | special treatment” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]
Letter from central construction office Auschwitz to SS-WVHA of 9 June 1942 on “erection of 4 horse stable barracks for special treatment of the Jews" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]
List of barracks of 30 June 1942 on “effect barracks for special treatment 3 pieces” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]

and

Order from Glücks via Liebehenschel of 15 June 1943 on “special buildings” should be “located offside in accordance with their purpose and cannot be stared at by all sorts of people” [NO-1242]

so there was accommodation to keep people due to go for special action hidden away.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:28 am
by VFX
No trees and no ques of people.. You are done. :)
Image
Image
Image
Explain where the lines are?

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:36 am
by scrmbldggs

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 am
by Nessie
The first photo dated 13 September clearly shows the trees around kremas marked "Gas Chambers IV & V". Krema III is obscured by the bombs and has trees in its perimeter. Krema II has various buildings in its perimeter and I have linked to documents about the construction of barracks. There is plenty of places for people to go into cover whilst the bombs were falling.

The second undated photo, also shows where people can take cover and it has no train in the camp. No train means no arrival of people.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 am
by Nessie
VFX will not look at that source, so best reproduce it. It is from the 25th August when according to records there were two selections of Polish Jews from the Lodz ghetto, so two transports arrived. This photo shows one of the trains and people moving either side;

Image

The image moves as it superimposes photos together to make an animation. Here you can see two groups of people moving towards the kremas II and III, on the left of the photo towards the road that runs between the kremas.

Image

The entrance to the kremas is at the end of the low roofed building to the left. It is easy to see how the small groups moving to the kremas would need to be captured on the photos very precisely, at the time they went into the building. People were being moved about the camp in small groups, not one massive queue as they variously went to four different kremas, those selected were to leave the camp and there were also groups who went to Bunker II outside the camp for gassing.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:58 am
by Statistical Mechanic
VFX wrote:No trees and no ques of people.. You are done. :)
Image
Image
Image
Explain where the lines are?
Just because it came up in another thread, note this guy’s way of discussing a topic. Nessie does his work for him and posts some of the relevant information along with discussion. VFX doesn’t bother with any of that but simply reasserts his original claim and crows about a point Nessie stipulates, as though this responds to what Nessie posted.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:09 am
by Nessie
VFX has dodged my points raised in the OP, particularly the one where I point out that there is no massive queue of people leaving the camp. I also think I was wrong at point 3 to say "there would only be a large queue into a krema shortly after a selection had taken place". The aerial photos scrmbldggs linked to show smaller groups moving about the camp. That would make sense as those people need to be guarded.

I think photos of the selection process made me think the people all filed into the gas chambers in one large group;

Image

But those in the photo are about to split into groups to go to four kremas, one Bunker and some selected to work to leave the camp. Six different destinations.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:01 am
by Nessie
Here we do see a "queue" of people as they file across a road in Birkenau in the women's section of the camp between two disinfestation buildings;

Image

It is from the photos taken on August 25th, which was by a Mosquito from the South African Air Force as they did reconnaissance. One small plane and no bombing raid possibly explains why people are out in the open. They are not threatened by its presence and maybe had little time to react since it was such a fast plane. It suddenly appears and then disappears again.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:43 pm
by Hans
There is a long queue of people on the road leading to crematorium 4 and 5 on 23 August 1944:

Image

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:54 pm
by Nessie
Is there a location for this photo, in the woods around Kremas IV and V?

Image

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:51 pm
by scrmbldggs
The Auschwitz Album places it in "the grove closest to the crematorium" and mentions "outside Krema IV". Some of those pictures of Hungarian Jews show barracks in the background, apparently those of "Kanada". Hans would know best. :-D

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:55 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
VFX wrote:no ques of people.. You are done. :)
Hey, what do you know, it works the other way - a queue of people and VFX is done ...
Hans wrote:There is a long queue of people on the road leading to crematorium 4 and 5 on 23 August 1944:

Image

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:50 pm
by Jeffk 1970
Somewhere the ghost of John Ball is gnashing his teeth.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:09 pm
by montgomery
Hans wrote:There is a long queue of people on the road leading to crematorium 4 and 5 on 23 August 1944:

Image
This could be evidence for the H.P.'ers side but I would like to hear a decent discussion on this claim of evidence, both pro and con. So not even knowing for sure what the word 'krema' is describing, maybe somebody would like to begin with that. I'm assuming so far that it's a combination of gas chambers and crematoriums.

Is the line of people in the middle of the picture, stretching to the right? Where is the 'krema' in the picture?

I'll stop there to test the demeanor of anyone who cares to answer. Mor bad behavior is not tolerable.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:12 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
I have a suggestion monkey man: check back in when you have learned something and figured out how to frame a proper question.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:19 pm
by scrmbldggs
Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:21 pm
by montgomery
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I have a suggestion monkey man: check back in when you have learned something and figured out how to frame a proper question.
That's good enough for me on this one. About what I expected from you. And frankly, anything being presented by Hans is going to be suspect, after the shadow on the wall. But I'll let Hans speak for himself.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:22 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
scrmbldggs wrote:Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.
Naw too advanced.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:25 pm
by scrmbldggs
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.
Naw too advanced.
:( Blocks?

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:33 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
Could work with close supervision

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:34 pm
by Jeffk 1970
scrmbldggs wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.
Naw too advanced.
:( Blocks?
They’ll just try sticking them up their nose or bashing themselves over the head with them.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:38 pm
by montgomery
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.
Naw too advanced.
No confidence in Hans' evidence? Go back to pulling the wings off of houseflies with your family.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:55 pm
by scrmbldggs
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Here's an idea for a new startup: HD picture and coloring books for today's...um....seekers. They come with a free box of crayons.
Naw too advanced.
:( Blocks?
They’ll just try sticking them up their nose or bashing themselves over the head with them.
:lol:

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:46 pm
by montgomery
Search google for image and Hans' photo is supposed to illustrate smoke, not a line up. This would be strike two for Hans if it wasn't for him striking out with the shadow on the wall bogus video. Shame Hans!

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:09 pm
by scrmbldggs
Let go of the mouse and step away from the computer. The poor thing and the interwebz Shirley have suffered enough.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:36 pm
by Nessie
montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:There is a long queue of people on the road leading to crematorium 4 and 5 on 23 August 1944:

Image
This could be evidence for the H.P.'ers side but I would like to hear a decent discussion on this claim of evidence, both pro and con. So not even knowing for sure what the word 'krema' is describing, maybe somebody would like to begin with that. I'm assuming so far that it's a combination of gas chambers and crematoriums.

Is the line of people in the middle of the picture, stretching to the right? Where is the 'krema' in the picture?

I'll stop there to test the demeanor of anyone who cares to answer. Mor bad behavior is not tolerable.
Krema is what the crematoriums were called, the buildings which were taken as designs for mortuary and cremation facility and one room was converted into a gas chamber during construction (see the thread on documents prove mass gassing).

Birkenau had four kremas and the photo shows Krema IV below and Krema V above. The smoke to the top left is from an open air cremation, needed because so many were being gassed that the krema ovens could not cope. Krema IV's oven rarely worked at all.

You should ask your self, why is a large line of people heading between those buildings? It is not as if prisoners got to attend the funeral if one of them died and it is a funeral procession. The line of people fits in with the testimony given that people not selected for work were told they were going for showers and were taken to be gassed.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:27 pm
by VFX
Thousand of people getting off a train are going to move. They are not just going to stand there. Movement from the disembarkation point to where they are processed and showered is inevitable. It is highly unlikely any showering would take place in a morgue. I want to see the photos not of a line or people near the train but going into Leichenkeller II.
I want to see an aerial version of this photo, which is a movie depiction of Krema II Birkenau.
Image
It should look something like this, which is a model depiction of Jews heading down to Leichenkeller II in Krema III Birkenau.
Image
I do not wish to see the arrival photos such as depicted below. These people were dispersed throughout the camp.
Image

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 pm
by scrmbldggs
Ya but, who cares?

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:06 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
VFX wrote:I want to see an aerial version of this photo, which is a movie depiction of Krema II Birkenau.
Do you also want a pony?

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:08 pm
by VFX
scrmbldggs wrote:Ya but, who cares?
No photo it just didn't happen at least not that way. Think of poor Nessie, years of sprouting all of his cattle poop about this to no avail. Shred a little tear for him. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:14 pm
by Statistical Mechanic
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Ya but, who cares?
No photo it just didn't happen at least not that way.
The most compelling argument you've made so far: nope, didn't happen, nah hah nah.

I mean, you could at least pretend to be serious for one or two posts instead of constantly clowning around and acting like the class idiot.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:39 pm
by Jeffk 1970
VFX wrote:Thousand of people getting off a train are going to move.
What an amazing observation.
They are not just going to stand there.
Wait....what????
Movement from the disembarkation point to where they are processed and showered is inevitable. It is highly unlikely any showering would take place in a morgue.
Yes, that’s true.
I want to see the photos not of a line or people near the train but going into Leichenkeller II.
You realize there were gas chambers not only in “Leichenkeller II” but in Krema III, IV and V?
I want to see an aerial version of this photo, which is a movie depiction of Krema II Birkenau.
Image
It should look something like this, which is a model depiction of Jews heading down to Leichenkeller II in Krema III Birkenau.
I’m struggling to take the above seriously.
OK, here’s the problem with the above:

There’s no guarantee that a photo like that exists or be clear enough (based upon 1940’s technology) to depict what you want. You need a picture snapped at exactly the right moment to depict a line of people entering any of buildings. But I admit it does make it easier for you to continue dwelling in your denial. It’s akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la.”

I do not wish to see the arrival photos such as depicted below. These people were dispersed throughout the camp.
Image
And then what happened to them?

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:44 pm
by Darren Wilshak
The colour image is a screen shot taken from the film, 'the Grey Zone.'

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:51 pm
by VFX
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
There’s no guarantee that a photo like that exists or be clear enough (based upon 1940’s technology) to depict what you want. You need a picture snapped at exactly the right moment to depict a line of people entering any of buildings. But I admit it does make it easier for you to continue dwelling in your denial. It’s akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la.”
It does not need to be clear, but a common recognizance photo. Lines of people from aerial shots are easy to discern. I am patient so take your time. If you can find just one, then basically the holocaust claim regarding Birkenau has undeniable proof and not just the speculation you and Kelpie love to dwell on. Kelpie should know by now how important good evidence is. I saw the lines near Krema 3 but with the smoke etc, these could easily be a work detail.
The only danger there is concerns the inhalation of gaseous fumes from the smoke, whatever the cause of that was. Rubbish burning perhaps, maybe corpses due to Krema failure. I am not one to speculate of course. :lol:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
And then what happened to them?
Some may still be alive, go and ask them. :roll: :roll:

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:40 pm
by Jeffk 1970
VFX wrote:
There’s no guarantee that a photo like that exists or be clear enough (based upon 1940’s technology) to depict what you want. You need a picture snapped at exactly the right moment to depict a line of people entering any of buildings. But I admit it does make it easier for you to continue dwelling in your denial. It’s akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la.”


It does not need to be clear, but a common recognizance photo.
FFS, reconnaissance-re·con·nais·sance
Lines of people from aerial shots are easy to discern.
Which you were shown.

My point remains. The re·con·nais·sance flights were not sent specifically to target lines of people walking to gas chambers but to photograph the camp for military purposes.
I am patient so take your time. If you can find just one, then basically the holocaust claim regarding Birkenau has undeniable proof and not just the speculation you and Kelpie love to dwell on. Kelpie should know by now how important good evidence is. I saw the lines near Krema 3 but with the smoke etc, these could easily be a work detail.
Your patience was rewarded. Look at the pictures, people heading in the directions of the gas chambers.
The only danger there is concerns the inhalation of gaseous fumes from the smoke, whatever the cause of that was. Rubbish burning perhaps, maybe corpses due to Krema failure. I am not one to speculate of course. :lol:
You speculate a lot. First it was rogue operations and the the ARC camps were field hospitals. I still find that one funny as hell.
And then what happened to them?
Some may still be alive, go and ask them. :roll: :roll:
I’m asking you. It shouldn’t be that difficult, right? Look at the Hungarian Action. We have about 300,000 Hungarian Jews unaccounted for. Track their movement to other camps with proof and I will believe everything you say.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:05 am
by VFX
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
VFX wrote:
There’s no guarantee that a photo like that exists or be clear enough (based upon 1940’s technology) to depict what you want. You need a picture snapped at exactly the right moment to depict a line of people entering any of buildings. But I admit it does make it easier for you to continue dwelling in your denial. It’s akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la.”


It does not need to be clear, but a common recognizance photo.
FFS, reconnaissance-re·con·nais·sance
Lines of people from aerial shots are easy to discern.
Which you were shown.

My point remains. The re·con·nais·sance flights were not sent specifically to target lines of people walking to gas chambers but to photograph the camp for military purposes.
I am patient so take your time. If you can find just one, then basically the holocaust claim regarding Birkenau has undeniable proof and not just the speculation you and Kelpie love to dwell on. Kelpie should know by now how important good evidence is. I saw the lines near Krema 3 but with the smoke etc, these could easily be a work detail.
Your patience was rewarded. Look at the pictures, people heading in the directions of the gas chambers.
The only danger there is concerns the inhalation of gaseous fumes from the smoke, whatever the cause of that was. Rubbish burning perhaps, maybe corpses due to Krema failure. I am not one to speculate of course. :lol:
You speculate a lot. First it was rogue operations and the the ARC camps were field hospitals. I still find that one funny as hell.
And then what happened to them?
Some may still be alive, go and ask them. :roll: :roll:
I’m asking you. It shouldn’t be that difficult, right? Look at the Hungarian Action. We have about 300,000 Hungarian Jews unaccounted for. Track their movement to other camps with proof and I will believe everything you say.
They were assimilated into the USSR.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:13 am
by Jeffk 1970
VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
VFX wrote:
There’s no guarantee that a photo like that exists or be clear enough (based upon 1940’s technology) to depict what you want. You need a picture snapped at exactly the right moment to depict a line of people entering any of buildings. But I admit it does make it easier for you to continue dwelling in your denial. It’s akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la.”


It does not need to be clear, but a common recognizance photo.
FFS, reconnaissance-re·con·nais·sance
Lines of people from aerial shots are easy to discern.
Which you were shown.

My point remains. The re·con·nais·sance flights were not sent specifically to target lines of people walking to gas chambers but to photograph the camp for military purposes.
I am patient so take your time. If you can find just one, then basically the holocaust claim regarding Birkenau has undeniable proof and not just the speculation you and Kelpie love to dwell on. Kelpie should know by now how important good evidence is. I saw the lines near Krema 3 but with the smoke etc, these could easily be a work detail.
Your patience was rewarded. Look at the pictures, people heading in the directions of the gas chambers.
The only danger there is concerns the inhalation of gaseous fumes from the smoke, whatever the cause of that was. Rubbish burning perhaps, maybe corpses due to Krema failure. I am not one to speculate of course. :lol:
You speculate a lot. First it was rogue operations and the the ARC camps were field hospitals. I still find that one funny as hell.
And then what happened to them?
Some may still be alive, go and ask them. :roll: :roll:
I’m asking you. It shouldn’t be that difficult, right? Look at the Hungarian Action. We have about 300,000 Hungarian Jews unaccounted for. Track their movement to other camps with proof and I will believe everything you say.
They were assimilated into the USSR.
LOL

Proof, remember? I want proof, not your endless horseshit speculation.

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:30 am
by VFX
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Proof, remember? I want proof, not your endless horseshit speculation.
This should be proof enough.
Image
Better still
Image

Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:35 am
by Jeffk 1970
VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Proof, remember? I want proof, not your endless horseshit speculation.
This should be proof enough.
Image
Better still
Image
Thanks, did you not know where these places were?

Track them from the camp to their final destination. Proof, not maps.

Should be easy, research accounted for over 100,000 Hungarian Jews to other camps.