How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

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Nessie
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How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 pm

Apparently Mattogno's next refutation of the Holocaust is a book due out called "The Making of the Auschwitz Myth—Auschwitz in British Intercepts, Polish Underground Reports and Postwar Testimonies (1941-1947)"

The synopsis includes "He shows how exactly the myth of gas-chamber mass murder was created at war’s end and in the immediate postwar period, and how it has been turned subsequently into “history” by intellectually corrupt scholars – we would not call them historians, though many hold the requisite credentials..."

So all historians are liars, which we need to add to the usual all Jews who say they saw a gassing are liars. But to sustain the "myth" would need far more than just that to have lied.

Das Prussian has a thread listing the names of direct witnesses to gassings on CODOH, including Germans, which runs to 295 people. For the gas chambers (not just Auschwitz) to be a myth, they clearly all lied. But, as Mattogno points out, their lies need the historians to also lie. His book title also suggests there was lying by Polish and British intelligence, which started during the war, but has also been maintained post war. Those who lied about seeing a gassing need others to lie to protect that lie.

In trying to see how many historians lied, I found a list of 130 Holocaust historians on Wikipedia. But it does not include Dr Nick Terry or Prof Sir Ian Kershaw. Some of the links are to people who have no reference to the Holocaust in their biography. I am quite sure the actual figure of historians (as in professional academic who would have accessed original documents) is in the thousands. My point is that for them to all be lying, requires a coordinated protection of original documents, such that if anything was found which was damaging to the alleged myth (such as records showing transports of up to 400,000 people from TII to other camps) would be kept secret, or even destroyed.

I thought it would be interesting to figure out how many people are needed to maintain the "hoax". That is obviously not a popular topic on a denier forum, so my attempts there are being trolled. Hopefully, a more constructive thread can take place here. The one exception to that is a denier who loves Conspiracy Theories. He also pointed out that all the tracing agencies would need to be lying about the numbers of people known to have reunited. How many people have worked at the ITS or the Red Cross, who are supposedly lying to protect the myth?

Any other suggestions and numbers?
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:08 pm

Short answer: Everybody worldwide who has anything to do with education relating to 20th century history, from survivor over archivist over historian to high school teacher.

That is to say, either a deliberate liar, or completely oblivious and misguided himself due to having taken the lies of a smaller group of authors of secondary sources seriously, i.e. an honest fool.

Essentially you need to be in complete control of any and all primary sources related to the final solution, which itself is impossible because they're in a dozen different languages and sitting in archives across two dozen european countries, the us and more.

Furthermore, you need to be in absolute control of all the census agencies in every European country, as well as North America, Israel and Russia, to tell them, some time in the early 1950s, to make sure to artificially keep the number of Jews low until being allowed to gradually increase them over the past few decades to give the impression that millions of Jews really did vanish and only slowly have built back their numbers until the present day.

You also need to telepathically mind control all the witnesses to prevent them from ever opening their mouth and saying they were coerced/paid to shill a lie for a newspaper/documentary etc.

And, while spending ten of billions of dollars to maintain this gigantic false flag operation over 80 years, you still have to be so stupid as to not be able to consider forging a written Hitler order or shoot some convincing gassing videos with all the budget you have, so that any and all doubts can be put to rest.
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by nickterry » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:58 pm

FWIW, the RODOH thread alluded to above by Nessie
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3216

Werd offered the following gem partway through: "Actually it was the British-Vatican axis that rules the world, controls the Zionists, and wanted war for their own reasons that allowed the Jewish Rothschilds to benefit in getting the land of Palestine".
Clearly Werd has never read Owen Chadwick, Britain and the Vatican during the Second World War; nor has he heard about Pius XII's silence, presumably the Pope kept his mouth shut to throw everyone off the scent. The logic of wanting war so the Rothschilds could get Palestine totally eludes me, since Britain had control of Mandate Palestine already and did not need to conquer it - maybe Werd is confused with WWI?

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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Nessie wrote:Apparently Mattogno's next refutation of the Holocaust is a book due out called "The Making of the Auschwitz Myth—Auschwitz in British Intercepts, Polish Underground Reports and Postwar Testimonies (1941-1947)"

The synopsis includes "He shows how exactly the myth of gas-chamber mass murder was created at war’s end and in the immediate postwar period, and how it has been turned subsequently into “history” by intellectually corrupt scholars – we would not call them historians, though many hold the requisite credentials..."

So all historians are liars, which we need to add to the usual all Jews who say they saw a gassing are liars. But to sustain the "myth" would need far more than just that to have lied.

Das Prussian has a thread listing the names of direct witnesses to gassings on CODOH, including Germans, which runs to 295 people. For the gas chambers (not just Auschwitz) to be a myth, they clearly all lied. But, as Mattogno points out, their lies need the historians to also lie. His book title also suggests there was lying by Polish and British intelligence, which started during the war, but has also been maintained post war. Those who lied about seeing a gassing need others to lie to protect that lie.

In trying to see how many historians lied, I found a list of 130 Holocaust historians on Wikipedia. But it does not include Dr Nick Terry or Prof Sir Ian Kershaw. Some of the links are to people who have no reference to the Holocaust in their biography. I am quite sure the actual figure of historians (as in professional academic who would have accessed original documents) is in the thousands. My point is that for them to all be lying, requires a coordinated protection of original documents, such that if anything was found which was damaging to the alleged myth (such as records showing transports of up to 400,000 people from TII to other camps) would be kept secret, or even destroyed.

I thought it would be interesting to figure out how many people are needed to maintain the "hoax". That is obviously not a popular topic on a denier forum, so my attempts there are being trolled. Hopefully, a more constructive thread can take place here. The one exception to that is a denier who loves Conspiracy Theories. He also pointed out that all the tracing agencies would need to be lying about the numbers of people known to have reunited. How many people have worked at the ITS or the Red Cross, who are supposedly lying to protect the myth?

Any other suggestions and numbers?
Nessie, I started a discussion on this awhile back:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177

I struggled thinking this through, this “hoax” would need to be ironclad in a way to survive multiple changes of governments in multiple countries and stop any leaks....ever.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:50 pm

I was wanting to put numbers to how many are involved.
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:09 pm

Nessie wrote:I was wanting to put numbers to how many are involved.

Well, you started with just historians, which is a big enough number. But, think about this, not only would these historians need to keep up with it but you have witnesses, perpetrators, survivors, Government officials in multiple countries that change over the decades, anyone involved in altering paperwork or structures, soldiers that liberated those camps and on and on.

It’s mind boggling.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:31 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . you have witnesses, perpetrators, survivors, Government officials in multiple countries. . . .
for perpetrators in the occupied East
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Nessie » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:39 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Nessie wrote:I was wanting to put numbers to how many are involved.

Well, you started with just historians, which is a big enough number. But, think about this, not only would these historians need to keep up with it but you have witnesses, perpetrators, survivors, Government officials in multiple countries that change over the decades, anyone involved in altering paperwork or structures, soldiers that liberated those camps and on and on.

It’s mind boggling.
Indeed it is and I think that this issue is a very good one to attack denialism with.
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Nessie » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . you have witnesses, perpetrators, survivors, Government officials in multiple countries. . . .
for perpetrators in the occupied East
I would only count perpetrators who we actually know about and use their testimony as evidence for the Holocaust. It is one thing to claim;

"in Lithuania SS-led local police auxiliaries numbered 30,000 (one battalion alone killed 500 Jews a day)"

but only those for whom we have names and testimony, can we count them as being part of the lie. But somehow, there needs to be at least some Lithuanians who are prepared to claim they killed Jews, or saw Jews being killed to create the lie. Then the 500 Jews killed in one day, they need to keep quiet they were not. If any Lithuanian accidentally, later saw one of those Jews supposedly killed, they need to keep quiet.

Or, a historian has made the whole thing up, but that requires no Lithuanian ever to have questioned the claim and done some checking.
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by NathanC » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:23 pm

No one was involved in any "Hoax" because it didn't happen. Though lots of people were involved in preventing any "hoaxing".

On the USSR side, we have Stalin, who enforced the Policy of "Do Not Divide the Dead" and prevented the publication of the Black book of Russian Jewry, which detailed the Genocide against the Jews on Soviet territory and therefore ran counter to Stalin's narrative of the suffering of the Soviet people as a whole. We would also have the Krakow prosecutors who claimed that 4,000,000 "Citizens of the Polish nation and other Nations" Died at Auschwitz, not to mention the staff of the very first Auschwitz Memorial. This memorial was also dedicated to preserving the suffering of the "Polish Nations and other Nations" at Auschwitz, and had a lot of staff who shunted aside exhibits about the Jews in favor of exhibits about how Catholic Poles suffered most. These staff would later set up exhibits that downplayed German atrocities and instead focused on how the Americans and British were the successors to Fascist Imperialism. So, ZERO people on the Soviet side involved in any hoaxing, and countless people involved in NOT hoaxing.

Heh. No Poles or Soviets involved in the Hoax. Mattogno's planned book will probably only be good for toilet paper.
http://lekcja.auschwitz.org/en_22_muzeum/
The Jewish room that opened in Block 4 in 1947 was now liquidated, and the exhibition changed so as to prove that Jews, Poles, Roma and Sinti, and other incarcerated nationalities suffered the same fate. Moreover, it suggested that “American imperialists” were the successors of the Nazi criminals, and the concentration camps in the Third Reich were not a place of suffering but of fight and victory of the international, mostly communist, resistance.
On the American side, we would have the 3,000 or more T-Force Personnel involved in Operation Paperclip, dedicated to finding out who would be useful to the US - regardless of their involvement in war crimes. That's not counting Harry Truman, who authorized it and explicitly said that he "Didn't Care". There would also be the OSS personnel under Allen Dulles who recruited former SS men and Eastern European Collaborators - regardless of their involvement in massacres against Jews - and helped them set up intelligence networks to spy on the Soviets. We would also have God knows how many officials in the US occupation zone, who slowly began to loosen Denazification in the interest of helping reconstruct Germany, with the following results which should make clear how many people were not involved in Mattogno's nonexistent hoax.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... &page=1302
The net result of Denazification in the US zone will be that, of some 3 million persons found chargeable under the law, about 15 percent will have been subjected to penalties or placed on probationary status, and the remainder restored to normal German life...it cannot be claimed that that there has been entire success in debarring Nazi activists from important posts in public and economic life, especially the latter where technical competence has been a factor to be considered
We should also include the Eisenhower administration, including Ike himself. Ike used Iranian Nazi collaborators when he overthrew Iran's government in the mid 50s, and later supported a UN security council resolution that condemned Israel for abducting Adolf Eichmann from Argentina (Definitely not involved in any Hoax). And that's just the beginning.

It's a lot easier to count the number of people NOT involved in the hoax than the people that were. The people who didn't hoax anything existed, and the people involved in Mattogno's nonexistent hoax did not.

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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . you have witnesses, perpetrators, survivors, Government officials in multiple countries. . . .
for perpetrators in the occupied East
I would only count perpetrators who we actually know about and use their testimony as evidence for the Holocaust. It is one thing to claim;

"in Lithuania SS-led local police auxiliaries numbered 30,000 (one battalion alone killed 500 Jews a day)"

but only those for whom we have names and testimony, can we count them as being part of the lie. But somehow, there needs to be at least some Lithuanians who are prepared to claim they killed Jews, or saw Jews being killed to create the lie. Then the 500 Jews killed in one day, they need to keep quiet they were not. If any Lithuanian accidentally, later saw one of those Jews supposedly killed, they need to keep quiet.

Or, a historian has made the whole thing up, but that requires no Lithuanian ever to have questioned the claim and done some checking.
. . . but strange that none of these many 1000s have come forward (or been located) to explain what "really" happened . . . we have both problems: many people involved testifying to pieces of what they saw/experienced - and many people who could give a counter view but none doing so - the many "samples" of the whole keep giving the same feedback . . . it's not like we're talking about finding a couple dozen people hard to track down somewhere who might have seen pieces of the puzzle: there have been 1000s who could have offered evidence to support denier claims but haven't . . .
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:20 pm

Even deniers meeting ex-Nazis does not result in evidence there was no mass gassings and a Holocaust;

https://codoh.com/library/document/958/?lang=en

An article by a Göran Holming, who appears to be a former major in the Swedish navy, known for his anti-Semitic views;

https://translate.google.co.uk/translat ... rev=search

"Holming is well-known to the Swedish Committee Against Anti-Semitism, where he writes with his smithing books to elderly Jews, letters to school publishers, school classes, and newspaper editions as well as prints of his statements in Radio Islam"

He discussed the origins of the claim about Himmler's 1944 order to stop gassings. Instead of there being an actual document, the evidence is "a written statement made by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Becher before the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal" in which he recollected receiving such and order.

Holming later met Becher and writes:

"As Kurt Becher showed himself to be enjoying our conversation and made the impression of being honest, I finally asked him: "What then is the truth about the gassing of European Jews, and what do you know about it? After all you spent much time together with the best informed and leading Hungarian Jews."
To this, Becher replied:"I heard about these things for the first time when I was brought to Nuremberg as a prisoner. What the truth really is, I don't know, but the allegations are in any case enormously exaggerated, as we all know."

So, Becher is not denying there gas chambers and instead the claims are exaggerated and he did not know about them till after the war. That is contrary to what he said at Nuremberg. If there really had been no mass gassings, Becher had the perfect time to let the cat out of the bag. Instead he was vague and played the foolish denier Holming.
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:19 pm

NathanC wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:23 pm
On the USSR side, we have ... the Policy of "Do Not Divide the Dead"
Mary Fulbrook makes some interesting points about how the Holocaust was dealt with in the Soviet bloc. These stand in contrast to efforts some (e.g., VFX, Monstrous, BROI, and Nessie) have made in this forum to see a Stalinist hand in jimmying evidence to fabricate Nazi crimes against the Jews, especially extermination actions.

One point she stresses is that in the DDR the main line was the presentation of the country as the "anti-fascist" state par excellence. In this way, first, people could find an escape route for individual responsibility as guilt was assigned to monopoly capitalism, the supposed root cause of fascism, and the Nazi leadership and ideology. Ordinary people were victims of the capitalists and their most ferocious, greedy, and vicious manifestation, the fascists; heroism devolved upon the resistance fighters, led by the Communists; those on the political left persecuted for their politics; and the Red Army.

Second, across the Soviet bloc, the victims of Nazism were described as the peaceful citizens and nationalities of the conquered countries. In this vein Fulbrook nicely summarizes how the victims were commemorated in early memorials in the East, for example,

- at Auschwitz-Birkenau, "The memorials built during the communist period emphasized the diversity of 'nations' subjected to Nazi persecution, underplaying the fact that the vast majority of victims were Jewish" (a point we've discussed in the context of the famous plaque); Fulbrook says that, despite some changes from the 1960s onward, this imbalance persisted at the site through the 1980s
- journalists reporting on the "unveiling of [the field of stones and carved menorah] memorial" finally in 1964 at Treblinka noted that the dominant line at the ceremony and site remained focused on nationalities and "citizens of European nations" who were murdered at Treblinka rather than the overwhelming preponderance of Jewish victims there
- similarly at Sobibór, even as the 1943 uprising was gaining international notice in the 1980s, "memorialization at the site itself did not reflect this. The sign erected by the communist government spoke of nationalities, rather than Jewish identity" - while in 1986 the Capuchin order dedicated a Catholic church at the site along with a statue of Father Kolbe, who died at Auschwitz; not until 1993, through the efforts of Toivi Blatt, was the text on the commemoration plaque at the camp revised to reflect how the camp had been used, for extermination of Jews
- at Belżec, also, the small memorial established in 1965 "promoted the idea of 'nations' and underplayed the fact that the vast majority of [the camp's] victims were Jews"
- at Trawniki, a largely neglected site, the official plaque "speaks of the 'international' character of the labor camp," while it was left to the private effort of a former Jewish inmate to fund and create a memorial focusing on Erntefest during which 6-10,000 Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis at the camp

(As an aside, Fulbrook notes that within the context of the idea of the suffering of "the nationalities" promoted in the East, the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, led by the Polish Home Army, was also suppressed in commemorative activities, for the reason that Polish nationalism was seen as a threat to Stalinism. Also, Fulbrook shows in other contexts how the selection of commemorative themes prioritized some victims of the Nazis and ignored others - e.g., slave laborers, Soviet POWs, euthanasia victims - and that these patterns differed from place to place and from time to time.)

A conclusion one could draw from these examples is diametrically opposite to the Stalinist-Jewish conspiracy theory purveyed by some here - that is, not that the authorities in the Eastern bloc elevated the Holocaust following WWII but rather that they actively promoted a view of the war period that suppressed the Jewish dimension of Nazi criminality and valorized other groups of victims and different themes, such as the heroism of Communist resistors and the Red Army, Stalin, and the working class.

Fulbrook, Reckonings, pp 486-497
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Re: How many are involved making the Holocaust "myth".

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:51 pm

Uh-oh.

The Communists in the West, at least in Italy, failed to adhere to the line laid out for them by deniers. In Italy, Legislative Decree no. 159 (27 July 1944) set out punishment for those who had collaborated with the Germans as well as Fascists who had committed violence. However, in 1946, 10,000 of the 13,000 people affected by Decree no. 159 were amnestied, including top leaders of the Fascist party, by the terms of measures introduced at that time by the Ministry of Justice - in favor of the "reconciliation and pacification of all good Italians"; anti-Semitic crimes, including the round-ups, deportations, internments, and thefts that were carried out under the Social Republic, were left unpunished in Italy.

The punishment decree, no. 159, was issued by the government of Ivanoe Bonomi, a democratic socialist and one of the founders in 1943 of the Italian Labour Democratic Party in 1943; the amnesty of 1946 was ordered by Palmiro Togliatti, head of the Italian Communist party (who, the next year, would be tapped by Stalin to head the Cominform, a post he declined).

source: Sullam, The Italian Executioners, pp 133, 135
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