"They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Balsamo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:His book Stalin's Genocides is mainly why I know about him. It was quite popular during the time of its release.

I'll be posting Snyder a bit later on.

Cool. And I will post what I learn reading Mann when I'm in Sweden - to the extent I have connectivity. A fair amount of the time I am going to be in a "stuga" in Norrland and I actually never bothered to find out if there's wireless there. A good chance there isn't. I hope to hell there's electricity :)


Then i really like the idea (that is of this discussion), regarding your stay in a "Stuga" in Norrland in december, well it is quite an peculiar project...Is there anything we could do for you?

Here is where he is going to:

Image

Seriously?
Isn't cold enough in Boston or whatever you live?
Are you a polar bear, or something?

If you want i have a Stuga much Southward, on a pacific beach in central America with 30 degrees Celsius and positive of course...for free, of course, we will need you in 2018!
Haven't you watched the movie "The THING"??

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:41 am

Lol that is pretty much it! Snow and all ...
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:44 am

I will never understand why people like the Snow. It's never been fun in my state, makes more pot holes then it's good for.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:51 am

Denying-History wrote:I will never understand why people like the Snow. It's never been fun in my state, makes more pot holes then it's good for.



I get it. I spent Christmas Eve stuck at the Office in 2009 when a blizzard struck the state.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:29 am

for some reason Swedish roads remain free of potholes; it's a mystery
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:14 am

They have money to spend on the roads.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:25 pm

Lol that’s probably it! It's a novel idea, too weird for us to try it here.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:for some reason Swedish roads remain free of potholes; it's a mystery

It's because - unlike others - they honor their Fair Folk.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:53 pm

Image
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:12 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:His book Stalin's Genocides is mainly why I know about him. It was quite popular during the time of its release.

I'll be posting Snyder a bit later on.

Cool. And I will post what I learn reading Mann when I'm in Sweden - to the extent I have connectivity. A fair amount of the time I am going to be in a "stuga" in Norrland and I actually never bothered to find out if there's wireless there. A good chance there isn't. I hope to hell there's electricity :)


Then i really like the idea (that is of this discussion), regarding your stay in a "Stuga" in Norrland in december, well it is quite an peculiar project...Is there anything we could do for you?

Here is where he is going to:

Image

Seriously?
Isn't cold enough in Boston or whatever you live?
Are you a polar bear, or something?

If you want i have a Stuga much Southward, on a pacific beach in central America with 30 degrees Celsius and positive of course...for free, of course, we will need you in 2018!
Haven't you watched the movie "The THING"??

Image
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:23 pm

Looks warm.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:48 pm

Ja if you dress right and light a fire ;)
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:His book Stalin's Genocides is mainly why I know about him. It was quite popular during the time of its release.

I'll be posting Snyder a bit later on.

Cool. And I will post what I learn reading Mann when I'm in Sweden - to the extent I have connectivity. A fair amount of the time I am going to be in a "stuga" in Norrland and I actually never bothered to find out if there's wireless there. A good chance there isn't. I hope to hell there's electricity :)


Then i really like the idea (that is of this discussion), regarding your stay in a "Stuga" in Norrland in december, well it is quite an peculiar project...Is there anything we could do for you?

Here is where he is going to:

Image

Seriously?
Isn't cold enough in Boston or whatever you live?
Are you a polar bear, or something?

If you want i have a Stuga much Southward, on a pacific beach in central America with 30 degrees Celsius and positive of course...for free, of course, we will need you in 2018!
Haven't you watched the movie "The THING"??

Image


And who is pushing the stroler ?
Here:
Spoiler:
Image

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:39 am

Lol
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:22 am

Considering not much has been added here as of late here is a quote from Ellman's 2007 essay on the interpretation of the 1948 definition:

The trial Chamber is thus left with a margin of discretion in assessing what is the destruction ‘in part’ of the group. But it must exercise its discretionary power in a spirit consonant with the object and purposes of the Convention, which is to criminalise specific conduct directed against the existence of protected groups as such. The Trial Chamber is therefore of the opinion that the intent to destroy a group, even if only in part, means seeking to destroy a distinct part of the group as opposed to an accumulation of isolated individuals within it. Although the perpetrators of genocide need not seek to destroy the entire group protected by the Convention, they must view the part of the group they wish to destroy as a distinct entity which must be eliminated as such. A campaign resulting in the killings, in different places spread over a broad geographical area, of a finite number of members of the protected group might not thus qualify as genocide, despite the high total number of casualties, because it would not show an intent by the perpetrators to target the very existence of the group as such. Conversely, the killing of all the members of the part of a group located within a small geographical area, although resulting in a lesser number of victims, would qualify as genocide if carried out with the intent to destroy the part of the group as such located in this small geographical area.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/soviet/famine/ellman1933.pdf
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:28 pm

Levene tries to stick to Lemkin’s definition but sometimes seems dissatisfied with it and contrasts mass deportation and destruction of national life with mass murder which is treated as real genocide. This tendency Levene falls into differs to his strict definition of genicide which remains Lemkin’s. Levene promises a third volume discussing development of the UN definition during the very period characterized by waves of genocide continuing through 1953.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:40 pm

I really don’t like Levene’s writing style and I think his argument gets a bit tangled up with the Holocaust. That said, his book strikes me as really important, with long sections on, first, Stalin’s wartime and postwar forced deportations and cleansings, featuring a sustained discussion of the expulsion of Germans from Eastern European nations; second, assessment of Stalin’s anti-semitism - focusing on the standing up and then unwinding of the Joint Antifacist Committee and also the Doctors episode; third, a discussion and analysis of Allied population policy in the last year of the war and postwar; and last, a look at how Zionism figures in.

Levene discusses the UN genocide convention - agreed as cleansings and actions aimed at national population homogeneity unfolded in the border lands and elsewhere- as a promissory note not intended to be paid. Levene describes Allied postwar policy as a form of real politik favoring achievement of stability in Europe via ethnic unmixing to make nations homogeneous and this leaving non-state ethnic groups up {!#%@}’s creek without a paddle.

Levene is critical of the drafting process for the UN Genocide convention in that wording on deportations was removed.

The appendix is a chronological list of genocidal actions with partial genocides and genocides marked, covering the period before WWI through 1953.

The work, despite a great deal of attention to the Nazis (Levene argues that the Holocaust was many genocides), is careful not to make the destruction of the Jews in any way a model for genocide.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 am

Balsamo wrote:
Spoiler:
Image

Whilst we got 2+ ft of snow during the week I was up north, the high temperatures were by and large in the mid-20s (F); where I am today, still north of Stockholm, but not in the mountains, the temperature will reach the low 40s today and highs for the next week will not be below freezing - for the most part mid- to high 30s. In Chicago, OTOH, the last few days have had highs of about 10F - and highs won't reach above 17F for a week or so. I visit Sweden in the winter for the warm weather . . .
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:19 am

Writing on my iPhone in the snowbound north, I came up with this (above): "first, Stalin’s wartime and postwar forced deportations and cleansings, featuring a sustained discussion of the expulsion of Germans from Eastern European nations." I should have written something more like this: "first, Stalin’s wartime and postwar forced deportations and cleansings - Levene also includes a sustained discussion of the expulsion of Germans from Eastern European nations, especially by the Czechoslovak and Polish postwar governments." The point being that whilst the policies of these countries converged with Stalin's, Czechoslovakia and Poland had ethnic goals of their own which they pursued.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Balsamo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Spoiler:
Image

Whilst we got 2+ ft of snow during the week I was up north, the high temperatures were by and large in the mid-20s (F); where I am today, still north of Stockholm, but not in the mountains, the temperature will reach the low 40s today and highs for the next week will not be below freezing - for the most part mid- to high 30s. In Chicago, OTOH, the last few days have had highs of about 10F - and highs won't reach above 17F for a week or so. I visit Sweden in the winter for the warm weather . . .


Yeah...That is why they fear so much Global Warming in Sweden.

As far as i am concerned, i can understand what you write conceptually, It's been 10 years now that i live in a tropical country. Everything that is below 60º Ft is perceived as frost by my body.
The worse being that i have been invited in Europe this...January...an invitation i cannot refuse unfortunately and i am really worried as i am not even equipped, even less physically prepared to the expected temperatures awaiting me. :cry:

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:35 pm

I am the sort who walks around all winter with my coat unzipped, no gloves, and no hat. When I lived in Austin, I made a business trip to Chicago - I called my wife and told her how wonderful it was walking around Evanston as we chatted - she asked what the weather was like - it was about 15F, a strong wind, and the beginning of a snow storm. I said, "Wonderful." ;)
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:37 pm

It’s going to be about 8F here on New Year’s Eve, about 17F as a high on New Year’s Day.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:41 pm

35F New Year's Eve here in Sweden, 36F New Year's Day LOL (but dark almost all day . . . )
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Balsamo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am the sort who walks around all winter with my coat unzipped, no gloves, and no hat. When I lived in Austin, I made a business trip to Chicago - I called my wife and told her how wonderful it was walking around Evanston as we chatted - she asked what the weather was like - it was about 15F, a strong wind, and the beginning of a snow storm. I said, "Wonderful." ;)


That is what Uncle Jack used to tell his wife:

Image

He is saying:
" Come on baby, it is wonderful out there...Let's go for a walk..."

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:33 pm

LOL (I look nothing like Nicholson . . . I might even be the anti-Jack !!)
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:35F New Year's Eve here in Sweden, 36F New Year's Day LOL (but dark almost all day . . . )



Damnit, why does that Judeo-Bolshevik, Sharia-law hell get better weather than us God-fearing Okies??????

:lol:
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:49 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am the sort who walks around all winter with my coat unzipped, no gloves, and no hat. When I lived in Austin, I made a business trip to Chicago - I called my wife and told her how wonderful it was walking around Evanston as we chatted - she asked what the weather was like - it was about 15F, a strong wind, and the beginning of a snow storm. I said, "Wonderful." ;)


That is what Uncle Jack used to tell his wife:

Image

He is saying:
" Come on baby, it is wonderful out there...Let's go for a walk..."


“All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.....”
:)
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:27 am

Balsamo wrote:Seriously?
Isn't cold enough in Boston or whatever you live?
Are you a polar bear, or something?


It's -35 where I am right now. :lol:

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:18 am

I've started Mann's book - also ordered Gerlach's Extremely Violent Societies for a counterpoint (Mr Bezos promises it will be at my house before I return from Sweden).
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've started Mann's book - also ordered Gerlach's Extremely Violent Societies for a counterpoint (Mr Bezos promises it will be at my house before I return from Sweden).


I looked at “Extremely Violent Societies” but decided against it, at least for now. Let me know what you think.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:20 pm

I will :) (I read a paper by Gerlach on this which I recall as being excellent.) So far Mann is interesting as heck - I will be posting a few things he says that differ to how I have been thinking about this issue . . .
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:51 pm

Expanding on Fein's definition, I wrote,
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . Finally, a genocide is not an armed conflict in a normal sense; it isn't a two-sided fight or social conflict; in a genocide, the perpetrator has significantly more power than the targeted "collectivity," which has relatively limited capacity to resist the destruction campaign. . . .

Mann does not agree with this statement in the least. He writes, in his third thesis on murderous ethnic cleansing,
The danger zone of murderous cleansing is reached when (a) movements claiming to represent two fairly old ethnic groups both lay claim to their own state over all or part of the same territory and (b) this claim seems to them to have substantial legitimacy and some plausible chance of being implemented. Almost all dangerous cases are bi-ethnic ones, where both groups are quite powerful and where rival claims to political sovereignty are laid on top of quite old senses of ethnic difference – though not on what are generally called ancient hatreds. Ethnic differences are worsened to serious hatreds, and to dangerous levels of cleansing, by persistent rival claims to political sovereignty.

(p 6) And further, anticipating at least one very serious point of contention regarding this:
Given the messiness and uniqueness of societies, my theses cannot be scientific laws. They do not even fit perfectly all my case studies. For example, Nazi genocide does not fit neatly into thesis 3, since Jews were not claiming sovereignty over any part of Germany. In Chapter 7 I offer a modified, indirect version of thesis 3 in which Jews seemed to German ethnonationalists to be implicated as conspirators in other groups’ claims to political sovereignty (especially as so-called Judeo-Bolsheviks).

(p 9)
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:23 am

more on this later - Mann defines

genocide as "intentional" and "aiming to wipe out an entire ethnic group, not only physically but also culturally. Yet if only cultural cleansing occurs, I call this not genocide but only cultural suppression. Genocide is typically committed by majorities against minorities, whereas politicide is the reverse." (p 17)

ethnocide as "the unintended wiping out of a group and its culture. This will usually be extremely callous," as with the results of the contact of settler democracies with indigenous populations in the Americas. (p 16)

Note: For Mann, "murderous ethnic cleansing" is not always genocide. (p 18) It includes politicide (intentional "wiping out [of a group's] leaders and intellectuals” - e.g., Nazi AB Aktion and Operation Tannenberg), classicide (intentional mass killing of an entire class - e.g., Stalin's liquidation of the kulaks), forced conversion (e.g., Ustasha "offer" to Serbs - convert or die), murder by means of callousness or miscalculation (e.g., Irish potato famine or impact of disease and forced labor on indigenous populations which can become cases of ethnocide), and ethnocide (above).

Also, there is no neat linear progression of scope or horror running from ”merely” murderous cleansing through ethnocide to genocide: Mann explains that in the Americas native populations were killed off at about 90% (in the US zone, the Indian population fell from its pre-Columbian total of as many as 9 million to, by 1900, 237,000. Yet for Mann this physical decimation is an ethnocide (unintentional wiping out), not genocide.

Mann gives many examples of cultural demise caused by a group against an ethnic group which fall into the category of forced or voluntary, institutionalized assimilation, usually without much violence and often by legal coercive, discriminatory means. The ethnic group cleansed in such a way may or may not retain some elements of its culture (e.g., its language via bilingualism). Such cases, obviously, are not genocides but non-violent cleansings (homogenization of a territory or country).
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:07 am

I have to expand on this: "Mann explains that in the Americas native populations were killed off at about 90% (in the US zone, the Indian population fell from its pre-Columbian total of as many as 9 million to, by 1900, 237,000. Yet for Mann this physical decimation is an ethnocide (unintentional wiping out), not genocide."

Mann describes the encounters of colonial powers with indigenous populations in Spanish America, Australia, and North America. These encounters shaded from cleansing by deportation and segregation combined with "exemplary repression" into local, cumulative genocides. The biggest factor in the mass deaths among native populations was disease brought to the colonized territories by the colonists (native people lacked immunity to these diseases). But in Australia and parts of the US, genocide also killed off many native people and resulted in cleansed localities.

In his conceptual overview Mann argues that it is simplistic to understand murderous ethnic cleansing and genocide as simply state policy carried out by elites. Rather, he says, the perpetrators of murderous ethnic cleansing generally include radicalized segments of the elites and state, bands of militants often organized in militias and paramilitaries, and broader core constituencies providing mass support.

The cleansings of native populations in Australia and the US are cases in which the state role was not as strong as the roles of militants and a core constituency: settlers and their militias continually radicalized policies and in most cases were the main murderers. Cycles of escalation and (disproportionate) retaliation laid waster to many groups of natives. The state often attempted compromise and conciliation, sometimes opposing (even militarily) local genocidal assaults against natives. Even here, however, the state's role was at best contradictory: Mann shows how four US presidents (Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, and Lincoln - he could have found more!) were guilty of supporting genocide and how the post-Civil War army (under Sherman and Sheridan) carried out not only deportations but mass, genocidal murder of inhabitants, with a preferred tactic of pinning down tribes and slaughtering them in situ (that is, whole families, not only fighters) over conducting mobile warfare against fighters.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:30 pm

Another one that I will come back to: Mann has a concept of “Plan C,” which is to say that generally genocides are not a first or even second intention; rather, perpetrators radicalize and improvise, replacing their original plans (deportation, segregation, assimilation or whatever), which don’t work or are thwarted, with increasingly radical plans.
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:00 am

As a short hand comment Manns definition is sadly disappointing. It doesn't seem to consider intentional partial destruction of groups. I'll be able to make further comment later on some of the essays I mentioned to you over pm SM.

Btw did I ever send you a link to that one article I mentioned that argues for social targets?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:24 am

Not sure why that's a problem. In the first place, Mann defines a range of varieties of murderous ethnic cleansing - all of which he underscores time and again constitute crimes against humanity of the most serious nature. These include intended partial destructions of groups. His chart on this (p 12) highlights as the worst cases of murderous ethnic cleansing the following: callous warfare, wild deportation, biological measures like forced marriage and sterilization, politicide, classicide, ethnocide, and genocide. Mann reserves genocide for an intended (differing to ethnocide) wiping out of an entire group (differing to classicide and politicide, which are also intentional mass destruction but intended as partial). Mann is using a more differentiated, finely tuned set of definitions than some other commentators.

In the second place, Mann does not insist on complete elimination of a group to describe an attack on it as genocide - as I read Mann, the intent of the perpetrator is important to his argument. I will summarize, and add some supporting comments, the eight tenets of his argument later.

(That article - nah)
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:13 pm

Mind that genocide under this category would exclude the targeting of a ethnos in part. Seems like it would allow for the targeting of a group in a specific province of a country and not in others to escape the genocide charge. I also don't think I implied that he said all members of the group must die.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:18 pm

Denying-History wrote:Mind that genocide under this category would exclude the targeting of a ethnos in part. Seems like it would allow for the targeting of a group in a specific province of a country and not in others to escape the genocide charge. I also don't think I implied that he said all members of the group must die.

But Mann, despite some misgivings, uses a concept of local genocide.

He says that partial genocide “makes sense only in geographic terms,” that is, as a local action (examples: settler attacks on Indians of Owens Valley in CA in 1851, Turk actions against Armenians in Van and elsewhere prior to Turkish cleansings going over into genocide, localized settler massacres and cleansings in Australia from late 1800s through 1920).

Mann does emphasize the genocide requires intent and (large) numbers. I take it that Mann is making some important distinctions among different kinds of cleansings and mass population destruction whilst conceptualizing a spectrum or continuum of murderous ethnic cleansing.

(thanks for the article :))
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Re: "They might have left some babies cryin' on the ground": what is genocide?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Mann's book, The Dark Side of Democracy, so far is excellent - and I kick myself for not having read it (published: 2004) until now. After a longish conceptual introduction, with some historical background, Mann organizes the discussion by case studies, in which he explicitly tests the 8 main tenets of his conceptual argument, which I've shared some of above. I find Mann's discussion refreshingly lucid and instructive.

The case studies are: colonial encounter/settler democracy (Spanish conquest in Americas, Australia, US, Russia in the Caucasus, South West Africa); Armenian genocide; Nazis; Germany's WWII allies and auxiliaries; Communist cleansings (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot); Yugoslavia; Rwanda; and then some counterfactual cases (India, Indonesia).

My biggest concern with Levene (again, the book is well worth reading despite my carping - it is a transnational historical narrative in contrast to Mann's approach) had to do with his conceptualizing the Final Solution as a series of (local?) genocides proceeding throughout WWII. I've read Mann up through the Armenian genocide and am about to begin his Nazi case study, so it will be interesting to compare Mann (2004) and Levene (2014). Mann's already flashed some of his thinking about the Nazis by way of comparisons to other cases - and so far I find what he says to make sense. More later.
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