Documentaries

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:09 am

better than I expected - Gröning comes off not well but is oddly informative; Morris Venezia, Dario Gabbai, Henryk Mandelbaum, and other members of Sonderkomanndo are very interesting; my wife found it irritating that I could predict who'd be introduced next (here comes Joel Brand . . . oh they will be introducing Konrad Morgen here . . . and like that) and that lines I'd toss out (e.g., Posen speech) would be quoted shortly afterwards LOL - I think it is a decent introduction to the camp - when his British captors beat the {!#%@} out of Höss, my wife found it the first human and welcome moment in the series, the one thing she found understandable . . . the brothel was covered in some depth - also SS sexual assaults in the camp - stuff that's not always front and center, a lot of material on Höss . . . if you had time, you could compile criticisms (e.g., little on the Hungarian role in the deportations) but for what it seeks to be, it succeeds . . . the "marathon" was weird in that episodes were sequenced out of order . . . 1943 came after the liberation of the camp, the death marches, and Höss's hanging . . .
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:better than I expected - Gröning comes off not well but is oddly informative; Morris Venezia, Dario Gabbai, Henryk Mandelbaum, and other members of Sonderkomanndo are very interesting; my wife found it irritating that I could predict who'd be introduced next (here comes Joel Brand . . . oh they will be introducing Konrad Morgen here . . . and like that) and that lines I'd toss out (e.g., Posen speech) would be quoted shortly afterwards LOL - I think it is a decent introduction to the camp - when his British captors beat the {!#%@} out of Höss, my wife found it the first human and welcome moment in the series, the one thing she found understandable . . . the brothel was covered in some depth - also SS sexual assaults in the camp - stuff that's not always front and center, a lot of material on Höss . . . if you had time, you could compile criticisms (e.g., little on the Hungarian role in the deportations) but for what it seeks to be, it succeeds . . . the "marathon" was weird in that episodes were sequenced out of order . . . 1943 came after the liberation of the camp, the death marches, and Höss's hanging . . .


My wife doesn’t watch things like that with me. She tolerates my interests but that’s it. I get odd looks sometimes, I’ll watch stuff like that while doing stuff in the kitchen. She’ll walk in right in the middle of a filmed execution or a witness talking about gas chambers.....

I liked Rees’ book on the subject, it’s not a bad introduction to the subject, not only Auschwitz but the Holocaust in general. Rees wrote a general history on the Holocaust a couple of years ago, I don’t think I’ll get it. I have enough general histories, I’m looking to focus more on specific aspects.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:35 am

my wife suggested watching "Einsatzgruppen: The Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix this evening; I will report back of course
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:my wife suggested watching "Einsatzgruppen: The Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix this evening; I will report back of course



I’ve seen it, as usual the actual contemporary footage is the best part.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:44 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:my wife suggested watching "Einsatzgruppen: The Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix this evening; I will report back of course



It’s where I got the sequence for these pictures:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28922
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:15 am

I think that this movie was discussed before; we watched only the first two segments. It's quite good. The historians interviewed are Matthaus, Browning, Ingrao, and Ioanid. Much excellent footage, including a lot unknown to me. The ten or so minutes during which a Liepaja Jew, who'd been hidden with a Latvian family, narrates the infamous Skede Beach shootings of December 1941, remarking on Strott's photographs and even giving the story of the Epstein family, shown in one of the photos, is amazing. Highly recommended. (French with English subtitles)
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:16 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:my wife suggested watching "Einsatzgruppen: The Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix this evening; I will report back of course



It’s where I got the sequence for these pictures:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28922

Yup, just saw this after posting, that's the sequence I just posted about. Your earlier post identified the photo of the Epstein family.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:18 am

My wife says that she might puke.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:26 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve seen it, as usual the actual contemporary footage is the best part.

It will not "prove" the extermination in the East, which isn't it's goal - however, for someone not versed in this stuff, it is a very good IMO survey; for someone who knows the history halfway well, there's a lot there, like you say in the footage; but also the details given by the local witnesses. They basically align with what I have read. It was interesting for me to see the historians, having read 2 books by Ingrao, 1 by Ioanid, several by Browning and several by Matthaus.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve seen it, as usual the actual contemporary footage is the best part.

It will not "prove" the extermination in the East, which isn't it's goal - however, for someone not versed in this stuff, it is a very good IMO survey; for someone who knows the history halfway well, there's a lot there, like you say in the footage; but also the details given by the local witnesses. They basically align with what I have read. It was interesting for me to see the historians, having read 2 books by Ingrao, 1 by Ioanid, several by Browning and several by Matthaus.


We discussed the idea of a parallel economy growing up around areas where mass killings took place, it interested me to hear witnesses who actually took part in that parallel economy.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Maybe no more watching this one with my wife: she woke up in the middle of the night last night from a nightmare - we'd gone to Second City for chrissakes (it was funny, too) - in which an Einsatzgruppen squad had, as she put it, "already killed" me. I'd been shot dead. Now, in her dream, with me whacked, the killers were coming for her with lethal injections. She woke up as Rod Rosenstein, a member of the Kommando, approached with a large syringe in his hand aimed at her chest . . . when she told me I could not help laughing even though I knew she was really rattled . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Maybe no more watching this one with my wife: she woke up in the middle of the night last night from a nightmare - we'd gone to Second City for chrissakes (it was funny, too) - in which an Einsatzgruppen squad had, as she put it, "already killed" me. I'd been shot dead. Now, in her dream, with me whacked, the killers were coming for her with lethal injections. She woke up as Rod Rosenstein, a member of the Kommando, approached with a large syringe in his hand aimed at her chest . . . when she told me I could not help laughing even though I knew she was really rattled . . .


It’s hard to remain unaffected, especially when you see children standing in those lines. It helps, only a little, to remind yourself that those people are long gone and that nothing could have saved those poor souls. IMO it’s worse when you see the starving ones, those that lived long enough to make it to the hell holes the Nazis sent them to. To see the dead and see that they succumbed so close to liberation or to make it to liberation only to die, that is hard.

My wife won’t watch those with me and I won’t let my boys look. I told them when they are older I will talk to them about it or if they read about it in school I will talk to them.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 pm

All true. But Rod Rosenstein with a syringe?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:08 pm

Yeah, that’s different....
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:42 am

“The Unseen Holocaust”

I watched this on Amazon Prime:

https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Holocaust-Paul-Brown/dp/B074XKF4RY/ref=nodl_

It’s based on the research on Dr. Jeremy Hicks. He discusses what he found going through the old Soviet Archives.

Of particular interest was footage he found from a Soviet newsreel, it is reported to be the first recorded footage of a mass grave of Jewish victims.

I can find it for free by searching but I don’t want to provide links in fear of Russian viruses..... :D
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:17 am

I haven’t had a chance to watch this yet so I’m going to park it here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c2kV83nPWnM
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:59 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I caught a documentary called "Night Will Fall,"

Saw it tonight, definitely worth watching
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:01 pm

tangentially related: "In Winston Churchill, Hollywood rewards a mass murderer" - with lively comments section - and the author's curious link, ostensibly for support, to a journal article that sketches out a very different view of Churchill
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:13 pm

I watched the Churchill flick last night; a lot of fact-challenged stuff going on there, I guess to heighten the drama. Worst was the tube ride to Westminster where the old colonialist bastard is slapping five with workers and a black commuter.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:48 pm

documentary premiered at South By: "Alt-Right: Age of Rage":
In its commitment to objectivity, presenting Spencer and Jenkins as two sides of a coin, Lough’s film falls victim to false balance. Spencer’s views remain relatively unchallenged throughout the film, so one wonders whether he should have been granted this platform to begin with. Thank goodness for Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, who offers the most insightful commentary in the film, calling the alt-right “a rebranding of white supremacy for public-relations purposes,” arguing that the notion of there being “equivalency” between the radical right and the radical left in the U.S. is “ridiculous,” and illustrating how “for these four years, white nationalists really feel like they have their man in the White House” in Trump.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:01 am

Thanks, I’ll look for it, stuff like that shows up on Netflix or Prime video at some point.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:05 am

I sure hope so! Flawed as it sounds, I'd like to see it.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:11 am

"Dunkirk" surprised me: definitely worth seeing, intense (to harrowing), not a typical war movie.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:48 am

I thought about getting it, I’m not fond of war movies.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:13 am

It's different. If you take it seriously, it is very difficult. The story lends itself to a heroic line, of course, but this movie is done in a way that fights against all that, foregrounding fear/suffering and bare survival. The cinematography is gorgeous and huge and sweeping - yet there's a feeling of claustrophobia at times. There is very little dialogue, and the only family/homefront story-line is horrifying. Rescues seem almost never to be complete. The structure is also a bit complex, almost jarring, in a way that ends up working quite well, so that the way things come together doesn't resolve a lot.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:23 pm

having a night to reflect about Dunkirk, I like it even better; it sort of kind of maybe reminds me of All Quiet on the Western Front; the beach scenes will stick with me a long time
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:00 am

watched "Get Me Roger Stone" tonight, a thoroughly unpleasant hour and a half
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:26 am

The family is away so I’m watching Godfather I & II, no documentaries for me tonight.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:39 am

"Get Me Roger Stone" made me want to vomit
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:42 am

I’m glad I’m watching Godfather I & II...... :D
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 am

LOL
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:31 am

I looked it up, the promo poster made me want to gag:

Image


:shock:
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Denying-History » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:01 pm

My copy of "The beginnings of the extermination of the Jews in KL Auschwitz in the light of the source materials" finally arrived. Asked Sergey via Twitter maybe a month ago to see if the book was worth getting, he described it as a mixed bag. It finally arrived (say three days ago), and I found it quite useful as it has print documents that are now easy for me to pull out on the construction of the preliminary undressing room of Krema 2.

It has possible false interpretations of a document related to Krema 1 but it's overall rather useful to anyone with a lack of archival documents.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:19 am

thoroughly enjoyed "Their Finest" which is a movie about the making of a movie about Dunkirk . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:20 am

Denying-History wrote:My copy of "The beginnings of the extermination of the Jews in KL Auschwitz in the light of the source materials" finally arrived. Asked Sergey via Twitter maybe a month ago to see if the book was worth getting, he described it as a mixed bag. It finally arrived (say three days ago), and I found it quite useful as it has print documents that are now easy for me to pull out on the construction of the preliminary undressing room of Krema 2.

It has possible false interpretations of a document related to Krema 1 but it's overall rather useful to anyone with a lack of archival documents.

This was discussed in the Auschwitz thread, too.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Denying-History » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:My copy of "The beginnings of the extermination of the Jews in KL Auschwitz in the light of the source materials" finally arrived. Asked Sergey via Twitter maybe a month ago to see if the book was worth getting, he described it as a mixed bag. It finally arrived (say three days ago), and I found it quite useful as it has print documents that are now easy for me to pull out on the construction of the preliminary undressing room of Krema 2.

It has possible false interpretations of a document related to Krema 1 but it's overall rather useful to anyone with a lack of archival documents.

This was discussed in the Auschwitz thread, too.

Sweet, Lol also realized I posted this in the wrong thread.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:27 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:my wife suggested watching "Einsatzgruppen: The Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix this evening; I will report back of course



I’ve seen it, as usual the actual contemporary footage is the best part.



Watching through this again while doing this around the house.

One of the disturbing images from episode four dealt with something not dealing with the murder of the Jews. A young German soldier apparently witnessed a 1005 Action. When he went home he built a fire, hung some of his sister’s old stuffed animals from a piece of wood and burned them, mirroring the bonfires that burned Jewish corpses.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:34 am

For those who have an interest:

https://youtu.be/YOqhuDGCC04

I’ll watch it when I get a chance.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:35 am

Unfortunately it’s subtitled in Spanish.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:05 pm

in lieu of a more appropriate thread, I am posting this here: Alon Confino said at a conference in 2012, “you didn’t have to imagine Babi Yar if you already imagined a world without Jews . . . what we call the Holocaust was representable, was imaginable . . . somehow people had ways.” 1920s movie restored: "The City without Jews"
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944


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