Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:27 pm

I posted too quickly on the Buczacz procedure, as Bartov (pp 179-182) returns to the first EG shooting action somewhat later and adds still more details. Two Jews survived the shooting, whilst others who were not among the 100s of Jews taken to the pits later testified about what they had seen.

- Decision of timing of action: made by local Gestapo or a regional Gestapo office In the case of the first EG shooting in Buczacz, the timing was at the command of the Tarnopol Security Police; a dozen Gestapo men came to the offices of the local police to inform them that "they would be carrying out an execution" (Kaznovskkyi) and required police assistance. - The execution was known as the "registration action," because it was preceded by the imprisonment of the town's leading Jews after the Germans had demanded Jews assemble for a labor registration. The assembly of the Jews for registration began at 5pm on 25 August 1941.

- Choice of execution site: made by local Gestapo The site, in a forest outside Buczacz, was chosen by three Gestapo men who brought a group of local police with them. - The area where the Jews were executed was known as Fedor Hill.

- Notification of action to local police: made by police chief of Schutzmannschaft, e.g. the day before an action over telephone, with deployment of armed policemen to take place that night; the nature of action and orders for the mass executions are given to the ranked policemen on the day of the action In person by delegation of Gestapo officers from Tarnopol; list of names of victims (men held in local prison) provided to local police by Tarnopol Gestapo - the shooting action was explained as a registration for labor and later the Judenrat was told it had been an execution of 400 Communists ostensibly requested by the Jews of Buczacz

- Overall supervision of execution process: chief of SD along with chief of Schutzmannschaft Tarnopol Gestapo - Sturmbanführer Hermann Müller from the Tarnopol Sipo station oversaw the selection process

- Requisitions of locals for various jobs: diggers, transporting Jews by cart to killing sites, erecting barbed wire enclosures, plank providers and movers, pushers, grave fillers, sorting, mending and/or selling clothes, pulling out gold teeth, cooks, translators local policemen were requisitioned for helping with site selection, to dig the grave, and to help shepherd the convoy of selected victims to the site; no additional information - fifteen to eighteen Ukrainian policemen had been assigned to dig the pits and to "escort the 'Jewish intellectuals' to the site"; they in turn requisitioned Ukrainians from the nearby village of Nagórzanka; these locals fled leaving the task to the local policemen

- Rapes: by both Germans and local policemen prior to the first EG shooting action, according to another witness, "German soldiers, led by Ukrainian dregs, broke into Jewish houses and raped young girls"; yet another witness saw Ukrainian policemen taking Jewish women from their homes and how they "mishandled" the women, p 167 - not more on rapes but the victims held in the prison were assaulted and tortured by Ukrainian policemen led by Kaznovskkyi the night before the shooting

- Jews to the pits: mainly local policemen and SS, sometimes assisted by local Volksdeutsche as above, "the Gestapo men, along with the selected policemen" (Kaznovskkyi), walked the column of victims through town to the pits in the forest - "a tight cordon of Ukrainian policemen," according to Jewish witnesses, the column was followed by a car with Germans with machine guns

- Shooters: generally identified as “Germans” or “SS” or “Gestapo” but also local police Gestapo men with participation of local police participated as instructed by Gestapo - machine guns were used

- Dealing with victims' clothes/belongings: initial sorting and culling by local policemen supervised by SD officer; final mending, etc by locals – who sometimes received some items for their labor - in this case: local policemen returned from the site with articles of clothing taken from the victims, the victims' valuables had been collected in boxes at the murder site and the victims were shot naked - local policemen later traded in goods from the site for brandy, vodka, etc; the Germans made the surviving Jews of Buczacz pay a ransom following the shooting action

- Grave fillers: locals, often bringing their own shovels, supervised by SS Huzar: "the grave with the corpses was covered up by the policemen" - because the local police had covered the mass grave with very little soil, according to Huzar, they were made to return later and do a better job at covering the site; three locals, including a Judenrat member and a local Polish doctor, went to the site the evening after the shooting and found the mass grave with bodies in it

- Evening debrief and celebration: might be presided over by Gebeitskommissar, includes German and local policemen - in this case: there was a drinking celebration the night of 25 August, after the selection and imprisonment of those slated for execution but before the shooting, at the home of local Dr Alexius Banach where the Gestapo men gathered that evening - interestingly, one witness reported that as they returned from Fedor Hill, in a celebratory mood, the Ukrainian policemen chanted, "Death for the Jews and Poles, long live independent Ukriana!"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:20 pm

NathanC wrote:. . . Monstrous tried to downplay "do not divide the dead" by saying that it was only in Stalin's era. The second half of the 40s was still Stalin's era, so he's now backtracking and contradicting himself in this thread. Pathetic.

Bartov describes two interesting aspects of this.

First, in the Stalin era, in fact, immediately after the war, there were investigations of the killing site outside Buczacz in western Galicia, Fedor Hill in the forests there. Although a 1944 inquiry concluded in the formulaic manner of Stalinist discourse of the genocide that in the Czortlów district as a whole "13,000 entirely innocent peaceful Soviet citizens" had been slaughtered, the body of the report of the investigation specifically referred to "mass executions ('pogroms') of the Jewish population" and said that "the entire Jewish population" of the town of Czortlów had "been annihilated." Detailed descriptions of the actions and methods were included. The report even called out Ukrainian "traitors" who'd assisted in the extermination actions and named names.

Later in 1944, in October, the local branch of the Soviet Extraordinary Commission carried out an investigation of the killings in Buczacz:
The investigators exhumed mass graves [Bartov includes a sketch of the site from Soviet archives] and carried out forensic analysis, interviewed locals, and tried to obtain information from survivors. The commission also identified by name . . . many Sipo men, gendarmes, Ukrainian policemen, and other local collaborators involved in the killings. An interim report issued in mid-October identified fourteen mass graves on Fedor Hill containing altogether 13,670 victims; it was followed a few days later by a report on three mass graves found at the Jewish cemetery with an additional 5,000 victims.

A final report was issued in November; this final SEC report on Buczacz
omitted all previous references to local collaborators, and while witness testimonies had unambiguously pointed out that the vast majority of the victims were Jews, the conclusion merely stated that these were "crimes against Soviet citizens."

At the same time, the report described forensic findings - saying of decomposed corpses examined that there were indications of gunshot wounds to the back of the head.

Second, in the post Stalin USSR, in 1982, a local history museum was opened in Buczacz. It contained many materials from the so-called "Great Patriotic War and the liberation of the city from the German-Fascist occupants." Not only did the museum exhibits neglect to give information about prewar Jewry in Buczacz (e.g., Emanuel Ringelblum and Simon Wiesenthal had been students at the local school, and the famous Hebrew writer Shmuel Yosef Agnon was born in the town and wrote about the region) but also a recommended tour of the city ended feet from the mass graves in the Jewish cemetery: "But the guide made no mention of the Jews who lived and died in Buczacz."

Bartov, Anatomy of a Genocide, pp 277-279, 292
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:04 pm

two posts by Jon Harrison related to the above discussion on the Crimea:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ks-in.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... togno.html
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:22 pm

It’s weird, I no longer get alerts for new HC articles.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:31 pm

Another piece by Jon Harrison on the Crimea, this one on the role of Manstein and the Wehrmacht in the extermination of Crimean Jews.

Dmitri Baltermants' "Grief," photographed at Kerch, January 1942

Image
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:45 pm

yet another great piece at HC, this one near and dear to my heart: "How many people were killed at Ponary?"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:04 am

Looks like I finally comment again.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 26, 2018 12:14 am

excellent article by Roberto Muehlenkamp, drawing on a variety of sources to show the emptiness of Mattogno's speculations about the 1941 extermination of Jews at Marijampole: "Mattogno’s Marijampolė Mass Graves Controversy"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 27, 2018 12:24 pm

This morning I made the odd decision to re-read this thread. Doing so provides insight into why Monstrous and Mary Q Contrary have fled this subforum.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:10 am

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:57 pm

Watch this space . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:47 pm

In my unsystematic explorations, I came across an on-line videotape of the 60 Minutes interview with Desbois that was mentioned by Jeff_36 and discussed in detail on this thread. I looked through the thread and didn't find it anywhere, so here it is, with apologies if this link has already been posted. OOPS! Never mind. I posted before I actually looked at the video. Turns out, CBS has, for whatever reason, taken it off-line.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:09 am

Desbois "60 minutes" video "The Hidden Holocaust" posted Yahad in Unum (and, as a bonus, here is a long video on Desbois' investigations of mass graves from the Holocaust)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Watch this space . . .

seriously . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:24 pm

Image
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:36 pm

Video of Berg in a Moscow hotel?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:38 pm

LOL ... keep an eye open for sure ...
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:58 pm

LOL

In the meantime, interview with a hidden camera of Heinrich Wolfes.
https://youtu.be/K_I1qgl968M
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Like I said ... watch this space. It starts here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 8.html?m=1
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Like I said ... watch this space. It starts here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 8.html?m=1


Danke, am looking forward to future articles.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:53 am

As an aside, I saw this document displayed at Wannsee House; it is a telegram sent by Jäger to EG-A headquarters on 9 February 1942 giving slightly different killing totals than in his earlier report:

Image

Executions through 1 February 1942 by EK 3:

A Jews 136,421
B Communists 1,064
C Partisans 56
D Mentally ill 653
E Poles 44, Russian prisoners of war 28, gypsies 5, Armenians 1
Total 138,272, including 55,556 women and 34,464 children
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:36 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:51 am

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:02 pm

Mattogno takes on the Jäger Report (well, he tries) - Part 4:
The refutation of Mattogno’s arguments against the Jäger Report is thus completed. In the next two articles of this series I will show some documents from the Lithuanian Central State Archives regarding killing sites mentioned in the 2nd Jäger Report.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:30 pm

Huh, but the Rabbit told me I need to read Mattogno....

Why when his conclusions are all wrong?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:41 pm

Because he quotes otherwise hard to find documents at length?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:03 pm

And then mangles them to deceive his readers.

Yeah, don’t get it.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:And then mangles them to deceive his readers.

Exactly, that's the beauty of the whole thing :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby montgomery » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:55 pm

I consider Monstrous to be an inept clown who can't even answer a straightforward question - support a claim with sources and explanation, not vague hypotheses about what might have happened.


I see that your debating tactics have been consistent! You need to control your anger at being questioned, and that will help you maintain some credibility.

When a debate stalemates as this one has, we have nothing more on which we can form conclusions other than the manner in which the debaters conducted themselves.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Denying-History » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:11 pm

Still incapable of adding any substance to any conversation on this forum...
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:11 am

Denying-History wrote:Still incapable of adding any substance to any conversation on this forum...


You were expecting a star in the east?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:34 am

Denying-History wrote:Still incapable of adding any substance to any conversation on this forum...

When a debate stalemates (translation: when Monstrous runs out of arguments and flees), one can only form conclusions based on one's personal biases and knee-jerk reactions, I have heard. One most certainly cannot think for oneself, evaluate the sources presented, respond to detailed arguments and assessment of evidence, or bring any ideas or information to discussions. It really comes down to personal reactions, people are saying.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:01 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Still incapable of adding any substance to any conversation on this forum...

When a debate stalemates (translation: when Monstrous runs out of arguments and flees), one can only form conclusions based on one's personal biases and knee-jerk reactions, I have heard. One most certainly cannot think for oneself, evaluate the sources presented, respond to detailed arguments and assessment of evidence, or bring any ideas or information to discussions. It really comes down to personal reactions, people are saying.


And always remember, no matter how frustrated you may be, to be be kind to the halt... they're people too and have opinions, gut feelings, gypsy astrologists, and an absolute, though not legally guaranteed entitlement to free speech...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby montgomery » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:54 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Still incapable of adding any substance to any conversation on this forum...

When a debate stalemates (translation: when Monstrous runs out of arguments and flees), one can only form conclusions based on one's personal biases and knee-jerk reactions, I have heard. One most certainly cannot think for oneself, evaluate the sources presented, respond to detailed arguments and assessment of evidence, or bring any ideas or information to discussions. It really comes down to personal reactions, people are saying.


And always remember, no matter how frustrated you may be, to be be kind to the halt... they're people too and have opinions, gut feelings, gypsy astrologists, and an absolute, though not legally guaranteed entitlement to free speech...


What were you trying to say? Be kind to the halt??

Are you trying to make some kind of reference to me?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:15 pm

Chimp's got nothing to say about the alleged Soviet forgery of the Ereignismeldungen. Who else is flabbergasted by this?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby montgomery » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Chimp's got nothing to say about the alleged Soviet forgery of the Ereignismeldungen. Who else is flabbergasted by this?


and

Indeed. This guy - who is struggling with so much here, how the forum operates, basic literacy skills, elementary logic


Are you feeling threatened? If I was a holocaust denier then maybe you would have reason to feel that way. The only other reason I can think of for your childish behavior is that you don't want others commenting on this section of the forum. You probably think it's your exclusively. You even tried to stomp on JeffK when he said something that wasn't to your liking. Something about Leuchter not even existing??

Best I just ignore you unless you're able to stop the personal attacks. It may be found to be acceptable by the moderator but I don't find it acceptable behavior.

If you want to discuss that kind of behavior further and how I am insisting it needs to be corrected, then let me know. Otherwise, I think I've patronized you long enough. Nuff said.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:00 pm

Still crickets on the topic at hand. Coward.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:41 pm

>> You even tried to stomp on JeffK when he said something that wasn't to your liking. Something about Leuchter not even existing??

Jeffk sometimes disagrees with me. Sometimes he agrees with me. Sometimes I agree with Jeffk. Other times I have a different take from his. We both post what we think. That's pretty much how this thing works.

And, of course, I never wrote a thing about Leuchter not even existing.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Denying-History » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:21 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Chimp's got nothing to say about the alleged Soviet forgery of the Ereignismeldungen. Who else is flabbergasted by this?


and

Indeed. This guy - who is struggling with so much here, how the forum operates, basic literacy skills, elementary logic


Are you feeling threatened? If I was a holocaust denier then maybe you would have reason to feel that way. The only other reason I can think of for your childish behavior is that you don't want others commenting on this section of the forum. You probably think it's your exclusively. You even tried to stomp on JeffK when he said something that wasn't to your liking. Something about Leuchter not even existing??

Best I just ignore you unless you're able to stop the personal attacks. It may be found to be acceptable by the moderator but I don't find it acceptable behavior.

If you want to discuss that kind of behavior further and how I am insisting it needs to be corrected, then let me know. Otherwise, I think I've patronized you long enough. Nuff said.


Lol Monsterous never stayed on topic and never engaged with arguments.

The latter of which you both share.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies


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