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Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:29 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques
Spear-throwing gave Homo sapiens better eye-hand coordination, smarter brains

Date: February 9, 2018

Source: University of California - Davis

Summary: Visual imagery used in drawing regulates arm movements in manner similar to how hunters visualize the arc of a spear.

Visual imagery used in drawing regulates arm movements in manner similar to how hunters visualize the arc of a spear. Neanderthals had large brains and made complex tools but never demonstrated the ability to draw recognizable images, unlike early modern humans who created vivid renderings of animals and other figures on rocks and cave walls. That artistic gap may be due to differences in the way they hunted, suggests a University of California, Davis, expert on predator-prey relations and their impacts on the evolution of behavior.

Neanderthals used thrusting spears to bring down tamer prey in Eurasia, while Homo sapiens, or modern humans, spent hundreds of thousands of years spear-hunting wary and dangerous game on the open grasslands of Africa.

Richard Coss, a professor emeritus of psychology, says the hand-eye coordination involved in both hunting with throwing spears and drawing representational art could be one factor explaining why modern humans became smarter than Neanderthals.

In an article recently published in the journal Evolutionary Studies in Imaginative Culture, Coss examines archaeological evidence, genomics, neuroscience studies, animal behavior and prehistoric cave art.

New theory of evolution


Continues...

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:43 am
by TJrandom
I never threw spears, but was rather good at throwing stones... Does that explain why I can`t draw? But wait... I was good at drawing water with a bucket. And... and drawing the short straw...

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:55 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
TJrandom wrote:I never threw spears, but was rather good at throwing stones... Does that explain why I can`t draw? But wait... I was good at drawing water with a bucket. And... and drawing the short straw...

Blame Darwin for that one.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:27 pm
by OlegTheBatty
As long as you can draw a salary, or retire on the fruits of such, it matters little whatever else you can draw.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:47 pm
by Lance Kennedy
I read that article also, and my skepticism immediately kicked in. There is only one quality our species has, in which we are superior physically (as opposed to brain power) over all other living things. That is, we are the best in the entire living world at throwing. Turns out that our shoulder joint is subtly different to other primates, in order to permit exceptional throwing ability.

Our ancestors undoubtedly used throwing spears with great effect, and that would have been a major contributor to their survival. Neanderthals did not. That difference may have been how it was that sapiens was able to drive Neanderthals to extinction. But the 'superior' sapiens shoulder joint did not come from being able to draw.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:59 pm
by OlegTheBatty
Lance Kennedy wrote:I read that article also, and my skepticism strawmanning instinct immediately kicked in. There is only one quality our species has, in which we are superior physically (as opposed to brain power) over all other living things. That is, we are the best in the entire living world at throwing. Turns out that our shoulder joint is subtly different to other primates, in order to permit exceptional throwing ability.

Our ancestors undoubtedly used throwing spears with great effect, and that would have been a major contributor to their survival. Neanderthals did not. That difference may have been how it was that sapiens was able to drive Neanderthals to extinction. But the 'superior' sapiens shoulder joint did not come from being able to draw.


Fixed your spelling error.

He doesn't propose that drawing influenced the shoulder joint. He hypothesizes that the same shoulder (more precisely - it's throwing ability)
allowed better drawing skills, and that the planning skills needed for artistry and hunting enhanced each other and may have caused an increase in intelligence.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:36 pm
by Lance Kennedy
Oleg

In what way does a shoulder joint adapted for throwing permit better drawing skills ? After all, you do not draw from your shoulder. The joints used are primarily those of the wrist and hand.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:39 pm
by OlegTheBatty
Lance Kennedy wrote:Oleg

In what way does a shoulder joint adapted for throwing permit better drawing skills ? After all, you do not draw from your shoulder. The joints used are primarily those of the wrist and hand.

Talk to the researcher - he's the artist, not me.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:41 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
All I know is: everything is connected to everything else.........so........at least there is a connection. I know that when my shoulder hurts, I don't feel like drawing?---and you do have to move your shoulders to set up those easels. Or... pile up rocks to get high up on the primo spot on the wall, top of the cave??? Looks like lots of shoulder work to me.............

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:53 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
This one goes in the "100 Year" file. I'll look at it again in a 100 years. If it is still reasonable I'll take it out of the "100 Year" file and NOT toss it.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:22 am
by TJrandom
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:All I know is: everything is connected to everything else.........so........at least there is a connection. I know that when my shoulder hurts, I don't feel like drawing?---and you do have to move your shoulders to set up those easels. Or... pile up rocks to get high up on the primo spot on the wall, top of the cave??? Looks like lots of shoulder work to me.............


I agree - without the shoulder movement, those cave paintings would have been at chest level at best. And maybe that is where the Neanderthals drew, and the Sapiens erased.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:48 am
by Lance Kennedy
Weak, TJ.

Even a Neanderthal could pile a few logs to stand on if he wanted a higher painting. Nor do I think his shoulder joint would stop him reaching high. Throwing is not the same as reaching.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:02 am
by TJrandom
Lance Kennedy wrote:Weak, TJ.

Even a Neanderthal could pile a few logs to stand on if he wanted a higher painting. Nor do I think his shoulder joint would stop him reaching high. Throwing is not the same as reaching.


I didn`t write the article and know nothing of Neanderthals, much less their shoulder restrictions. Michelangelo painted something while on his back, using scaffolding - but cavemen probably did not erect scaffolding to `do` their ceilings, so I suspect that free shoulder movement was necessary. Just a hunch.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:05 am
by Lance Kennedy
I must admit not knowing enough either. But my best guess is that the Neanderthal shoulder joint would not stop them reaching.

The sapiens joint is adapted for throwing, and the best throwing technique requires more of a sideways ability. I doubt the adaptation alters ability to reach upwards, in either species.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:02 pm
by Gord
Oh, NEANDERTHALS! I thought it said Netherlands.

Never mind. Post redacted.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:04 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
Gord wrote:Oh, NEANDERTHALS! I thought it said Netherlands.

Never mind. Post redacted.


Come back some starry, starry night and lend an ear.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:33 pm
by OlegTheBatty
Neanderthal artwork

New dating technique shows that Neanderthals were making art at least 70k years before the earliest known H. sapiens art. Some cave art thought to be H. sapiens was done 20k years before H. sapiens arrived on the scene.

H. sapiens art is more detailed, which brings us back to the OP.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:14 pm
by TJrandom
OlegTheBatty wrote:Neanderthal artwork

New dating technique shows that Neanderthals were making art at least 70k years before the earliest known H. sapiens art. Some cave art thought to be H. sapiens was done 20k years before H. sapiens arrived on the scene.

H. sapiens art is more detailed, which brings us back to the OP.


Neanderthals are alive and well at the NYT with their simple Subscribe Now or no peeky peeky. :cry: The Telegraph to the rescue.

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:34 am
by Poodle
Yeah. but they only did that because they had so much time on their hands as a result of not having anything to cook and eat 'cos they couldn't throw spears. :dizzy: :dizzy:

Re: Neanderthals' lack of drawing ability may relate to hunting techniques

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:00 am
by TJrandom
They didn`t need spears. They drew the animals in by drawing them – on the walls of the caves. Besides, a plateosaurus would keep them fed for a week or more.