The Universe Wasn't An Accident

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The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Gord » Wed May 04, 2016 4:45 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLdq1tRcOg#t=11.47475

Huh, I'd forgotten all about PragerU.

The old "the odds are low so Goddidit" argument.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed May 18, 2016 11:25 pm

;)

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 19, 2016 4:36 am

Yeah.... "logically" it seems to me the perfectly balanced requirements is a very solid argument (not proof) that there must be many different universes with 99.99% of them dead?

The best scientific explanation I've heard is that the parameters we see are an inherent property of space and time?==but that is totally circular leaving me with my own/first explanation that ....I think I have heard but not with any emphasis or accepted common sense.

There is no god, so that sucks.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Fri May 20, 2016 2:20 am

anyone ever think it is impossible to alter any of those 4 values ?
it is what it is - / nothing is ever an accident , right from the start..

and that big bang in the film - shows other galaxies in the background -
that's a Freudian slip / subconscious admission that there wasn't just one big bang but several
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri May 20, 2016 4:35 am

Scientific American went over this argument, in detail, years ago.

If you slightly tweek the value of gravity or other factors then, that doesn't mean another sort of life form could not arise.

If you fundamentally change the nature of gravity and other factors, the universe wouldn't be here in the first place.

To waste time wondering about things that didn't happen and don't exist, is just silly

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri May 20, 2016 8:45 am

:mrgreen:

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Austin Harper » Fri May 20, 2016 4:31 pm

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 20, 2016 9:11 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:To waste time wondering about things that didn't happen and don't exist, is just silly [/color]

I disagree. Seems to me such questions LEGITIMATELY are an examination of the status quo. Why is the universe what it is? Why is it not something else.

Very basic............... to question. Just silly not to..... or actually: impossible.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 20, 2016 9:15 pm

AH--have you read that book?

From the title, it appears to miss the point. Fine Tuning for existence, fine tuning for life, fine tuning of "us"==three seperate questions, perhpas nested ...but still.

If gravity were twice as strong: what would the universe/life/us look like? Wound the universe be anything except a black hole?

The question is sublime in its complexity, unknowables, and consequences.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri May 20, 2016 10:51 pm

Calling the universe an "accident" is gratuitously dismissive.

I prefer to think of it as a lucky break. :pr:
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Austin Harper » Sat May 21, 2016 3:06 am

The universe doesn't look the way it does so we can exist, we exist the way we do because the universe is the way it is.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat May 21, 2016 10:36 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Calling the universe an "accident" is gratuitously dismissive.

I prefer to think of it as a lucky break. :pr:

Good or bad?
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat May 21, 2016 11:35 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Calling the universe an "accident" is gratuitously dismissive.

I prefer to think of it as a lucky break. :pr:

Good or bad?


For you but not for me? ;)
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby kamiti » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:01 pm

If the universe was an accident, then why did accidents stop happening? Where is that new moon?
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:31 pm

kamiti wrote:If the universe was an accident, then why did accidents stop happening? Where is that new moon?


Cool first post bro. :pr:
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:03 am

Accidents are still happening all the time. I just stubbed my toe the other day.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:21 am

kamiti wrote:If the universe was an accident, then why did accidents stop happening? Where is that new moon?

:oldman: Next one up: New moon July 4, 2016.




Shirley, that's no accident. :afdb: . :beamup:

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:31 am

They just say the universe was an accident to avoid lawsuits - same reason why in some jurisdiction it's called an act of God.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Kevin Levites » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:18 pm

I quote Carl Sagan: "If we decide that God created the Universe, and we decide to explore this question courageously, then we must ask where God came from. If we decide that God has always existed, then why not skip a step and decide that the Universe has always existed. If we decide that the origin of God is an unanswerable question, then why not skip a step and decide that the origin of the Universe is an unanswerable question?"

For myself, I think the cosmic pizza delivery guy dropped it off on Superbowl Sunday.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:15 pm

Kevin: sounds good....but logically no reason God cannot be a mystery and that in fact he created the Universe. Its two different questions at different spots in the "chain of creation" so to speak. what does have some commonality is: How does the Universe "act?" And in that regard, the Universe Acts just as if God takes no part in it.

But thats a third question.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Poodle » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:11 pm

Austin Harper wrote:The universe doesn't look the way it does so we can exist, we exist the way we do because the universe is the way it is.


It bears repeating.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:30 pm

Nathan Brazil knows what's what.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby gorgeous » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:27 pm

and the 'accidental ' moon of Earth...right place at the right time, right size, right distance from the Earth...how convenient....
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:24 am

gorgeous wrote:and the 'accidental ' moon of Earth...right place at the right time, right size, right distance from the Earth...how convenient....
The moon has been there for 4 billion years. Animals only evolved 500 million years ago. Evolution matches the existing environment.

You really don't have a clue what evolution is do you?
:lol:

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:47 am

Did gorgeous just say

Spoiler:
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:10 am

)----------Isaac Asimov,
American author and professor of biochemistry at Boston University and Science Fiction writer. Asimov was one of the most prolific writers of all time.:

"We cannot help but come to the conclusion that the Moon by rights ought not to be there. The fact that it is, is one of the strokes of luck almost too good to accept… Small planets, such as Earth, with weak gravitational fields, might well lack satellites… … In general then, when a planet does have satellites, those satellites are much smaller than the planet itself. Therefore, even if the Earth has a satellite, there would be every reason to suspect… that at best it would be a tiny world, perhaps 30 miles in diameter. But that is not so. Earth not only has a satellite, but it is a giant satellite, 2160 miles in diameter. How is it then, that tiny Earth has one? Amazing."---
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:12 am

gorgeous wrote:)----------Isaac Asimov wrote
......died almost a quarter of a century ago.

As for your claim that it is unusual for a planet to have a moon..... :lol:

Mars has two, Phobos and Deimos, and the Earth has one , Jupiter has 67, Saturn has over 60, Uranus has 27, and Neptune has 14.

Only Mercury and Venus don't have moons.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:12 am

Double post again.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:22 am

phobos is fake too...
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:57 am

gorgeous wrote:)----------Isaac Asimov,
American author and professor of biochemistry at Boston University and Science Fiction writer. Asimov was one of the most prolific writers of all time.:

"We cannot help but come to the conclusion that the Moon by rights ought not to be there. The fact that it is, is one of the strokes of luck almost too good to accept… Small planets, such as Earth, with weak gravitational fields, might well lack satellites… … In general then, when a planet does have satellites, those satellites are much smaller than the planet itself. Therefore, even if the Earth has a satellite, there would be every reason to suspect… that at best it would be a tiny world, perhaps 30 miles in diameter. But that is not so. Earth not only has a satellite, but it is a giant satellite, 2160 miles in diameter. How is it then, that tiny Earth has one? Amazing."---


I like Asimov's books. The Foundation series, in which Asimov came up with the concept of psychohistory, was fascinating. Of course, psychohistory is an Asimov invention. And we must never forget his invention of positronics which enabled his robots to function. He was a brilliant, inventive, writer of science fiction. And he was a biochemist - a professor of biochemistry, no less.

I trust you get the point, gorgeous.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:52 am

gorgeous wrote:phobos is fake too...
Amazing Photos of Phobos and Deimos
http://www.space.com/24281-mars-moons-p ... hotos.html

phobos.jpg
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Zosimus » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:29 am

Gord wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLdq1tRcOg#t=11.47475

Huh, I'd forgotten all about PragerU.

The old "the odds are low so Goddidit" argument.

Well, it was somewhat interesting, but I must say that the title was a bit misleading. I expected to get a rousing sermon on why God almost certainly must exist. I didn't expect the tone of the video to be as it was. The tone, of course, is revealed around 0:42 when the author says "Perhaps the best arguments for his existence come from of all places, science itself." This statement clearly betrays the bias of the narrator, who clearly thinks that science has pretty much disproved God (or at least Christianity).

The narrator then goes ahead to lay out the fine-tuning argument. Since there are 200 known parameters, each of which must be set to within a narrow band, the odds seem somewhat against it. I mean, if you figure that the odds are 50-50 that each variable is correctly set, then the chances are 1 in 2^200 or about 1 chance in 1.61x10^60, so pretty unlikely. Of course, the math is likely to be more complicated than my back-of-the-envelope calculation as the likelihood that each variable could be properly set is probably somewhat less than a simple coin flip. So the odds are undoubtedly worse.

Then, starting about 2:20, the author decides to have an argument with himself in which he sets up the argument so that his preferred outcome will win. How did the universe come into existence? It was fine-tuned. Who fine tuned it? Here the author stacks the deck. God, by which he surely means the Abrahamic God concept. But why must we follow that road? Couldn't a person just say, "We really have no idea exactly who. We're interested in figuring that out." Of course, this doesn't allow for the author to go into his pre-programmed refutation of asking whether God has been fine tuned. Well, this is a nonsensical question. With the universe, we have some 200 variables that seem remarkably well adjusted. How many variables must be just so God the Abrahamic God concept to occur? Well, no one knows. Heck, no one can even speculate. So why are we setting off down this road?

Then he tries another tack by putting new words in his opponent's mouth: "God always was(sic)" to which he retorts, "Couldn't we say the same about the universe?" Well, we could, but most scientists are of the opinion that the universe was created about 13.77 billion years ago in an explosion that we know as the Big Bang. So again, the "refutation" doesn't hold much water.

So then at 3:00 the narrator asks, "How improbable does something need to be before we can reasonably rule out random chance?" Well, the answer to this is known...kind of, in an appeal to the inappropriately named Borel's Law, which should probably be more aptly named Borel's Rule of Thumb. Basically, the idea is that things that have 1 chance in 1x10^50 or greater never actually occur whereas things that are more likely than that do occur... maybe... sometimes. Isn't that kind of an arbitrary number? Well, yes, it is. Well, what if you had a billion monkeys with a billion typewriters for a billion years? Well... yes, some sliding adjustments might need to be taken into account. So isn't it a random, arbitrary and pointless cutoff? I suppose. Still, it's hardly more arbitrary than the idea that scientific studies with a p-value of 0.05 or less are significant whereas those with p=0.050001 are not significant, is it?

So at 3:38 the narrator criticizes Prager U for the "Argument from Incredulity," a formal logical fallacy. Granted, this is inappropriate in a logic venue. On the other hand, is it really that different from those atheists who say, "Jesus is his own father? That makes no sense to me," or "What kind of a God would create a world; populate it with imperfect people; give them rules He knows they're going to break; assess an arbitrary punishment for breaking those rules; sentence some of them to a place called 'hell' for breaking the rules; arrange to be born on the world for the sole purpose of being painfully whipped, scourged, and crucified so as to save those souls who telepathically accept Him as a 'Redeemer' and who arrange to eat pieces of bread that represent a spiritual enactment of cannibalism of His dead flesh?" Argument from incredulity? Yep.

So then our narrator rehashes the "Isn't it possible that one in holy crap that's a big number" could, actually happen? Well, theoretically it's not impossible, but look at it this way. If every atom in the universe had a coin and started flipping it hoping that it would come up heads 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 times in a row, doing so once a second every second from the time of the Big Bang until now... then it still wouldn't have happened. It's just too improbable. Or, perhaps we should say, that the universe simply isn't old enough for such a thing to have happened.

At any rate, this is a bad metaphor because it's not like the universe has been being created multiple times so that someone could say, "Well, yes, it's improbable, but given the large number of times the universe tried to create itself with the right factors and failed but retried... well, it was just certain to stumble across the right mixture eventually, wasn't it?" Well, as far as we know,the universe only exploded into a Big Bang once, and all the calculations we have indicate that there's no Big Crunch coming up so that it can re-explode and try to get things right the next time around. It was a pass-fail kind of an incident.

Then the video completely loses me by talking about Hail Mary basketball shots and lightning striking a guy twice in rapid succession. What's the connection? I don't know. I don't get it. A segue into sophistry, I suppose. Or more sophistry... depending on how you look at it.

Then the argument wanders further afield by talking about the possibility that a human being would be born. Unlikely? Perhaps. On the other hand, there are those who think that God has a hand in everything, so this is a bad argument to start. The author seems to sense this so at 5:40 he tries to claim that since God could be responsible for everything, that there's no such thing as probability.

Now, most of the arguments here don't hold water, but this is really the worst yet! By way of a metaphor, imagine that we are discussing the probability that a white bishop will end up on h6 in a game of chess between two specific Grandmasters, representing God and Satan. Is it appropriate to say, "Wait a minute! Since every move played on the board has a purpose and is intelligently made, it's completely inappropriate to discuss the probability of that event?" Uhm... no, it's not inappropriate. In fact, we could probably come up with some pretty good ideas of how likely that is by looking at past games by each GM.

Well, I could go on and on kicking holes in the incredibly bad argument, but what's the point really? This "Skeptics Society" doesn't seem that skeptical, really. Perhaps the name should be changed to the nod-in-unison society.

Over and out.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Kevin Levites » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:11 pm

Anyone interested in scientific arguments trying to prove the existence of God should read a brilliant essay by Issac Asimov called 'The Judo Argument'.

It originally appeared in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, and was reprinted in a book called The Planet that Wasn't.

With the accuracy of a Marine sniper, he shoots down every 'scientific' argument proving God's existence...arguments that are put into religious tracts to this day.

Of course God may still exist...even if there is no neccessity for that existence.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Poodle » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:20 pm

I hope God's existence is soon to be proved - thus establishing once and for all the reality of instantaneous travel anywhere in the universe and beyond (or, failing that, the existence of the Electronic Thumb), real magic (a nod in Terry's direction), universal translation devices (yes - the Babel Fish) and, no doubt, the Celestial Civil Service aka the Vogon Constructor Fleet.

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Kevin Levites » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:19 pm

A part of me ( and maybe this is arrogance) hopes that God's existence is never proven or disproven.

If God's existence is proven, then why have need of curiosity? All questions are answered. Where is the motivation to do science, when it would just be easier to wait for death.

I could see a society with absolute proof of God's existence becoming death-centered...like the ancient Eqyptians.

Maybe God exists, but is invisible because (S)He loves us.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Kevin Levites wrote:A part of me ( and maybe this is arrogance) hopes that God's existence is never proven or disproven.
Why? what difference does it make????? Unless at the same time it decided to step up and start doing something? As we observe the Universe operating on natural physical laws, it "appears" there is no god at all. so...if there is a god: how would you know...and who cares?


Kevin Levites wrote:If God's existence is proven, then why have need of curiosity?
My godness. Have you no History, no insight into yourself? Seems to me the very first item of curiosity would be the validity of the proof? Dawkins has gone Plus One recently claiming that even if God appeared to us all....it is so illogical that he would have to prefer the explanation of Alien Trickery on the scale of David Copperfield making the Eiffel Tower disappear. AFTER TELLING GOD TO LEAVE ME ALONE, my curiosity would pretty quickly move to the question of evil in the world, how free will exists, why punish us for what Adam and Eve did....etc. LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

Kevin Levites wrote:All questions are answered. Where is the motivation to do science, when it would just be easier to wait for death.
"Goddidit"==?==>actually explains NOTHING, even if true. We continue to do science in order to enjoy its fruits....and for many not even to delay death but to make like more disease free. Really, your understanding of a living god is gibberish.

Kevin Levites wrote:I could see a society with absolute proof of God's existence becoming death-centered...like the ancient Eqyptians.
"Sounds like": you are curious about what god existing would mean for the human race?

Kevin Levites wrote: Maybe God exists, but is invisible because (S)He loves us.
.... and rides a unicorn.
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby gorgeous » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:32 pm

as our perception is flawed our concept of God is flawed ...all religions have distorted God...aliens have told people the Earth is a school...Seth said so too...why learn? to develop, evolve consciousness... -------seth---------------------------------“You must understand the nature of reality before you can manipulate within it intelligently and well. In this environment and in physical reality, you are learning -- you are supposed to be learning -- that your thoughts have reality, and that you create the reality that you know.

When you leave this dimension, then you concentrate upon the knowledge that you have gained. If you still do not realize that you create the reality that you know, then you return and again you learn to manipulate and again and again you see the results of your own inner reality as you meet it objectified.

You teach yourself the lesson until you have learned it. And when you have learned it, then you have begun to learn how to handle the consciousness that is yours intelligently and well.”
---------------------------“You are in physical existence to learn and understand that your energy, translated into feelings, thoughts and emotions, causes all experience. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS.”--------------"No chance encounter of physical elements alone, under any
circumstances, could produce consciousness -or the conditions
that would then make consciousness possible." ---------"It is somewhat humorous that such a vital consciousness could
even suppose itself to be the end product of inert elements that
were themselves lifeless, but somehow managed to combine in such
a way that your species attained fantasy, logic, vast organizational
power, technologies, and civilizations." ----------------"My dear friends: existence is larger than life or death.
Life or death are both states of existence. An identity
exists whether it is in the state of life or in the state
of death. Your cats' consciousness never was dependent
upon its physical form. Instead, the consciousness was
itself choosing the experience of cathood."
------------------------"It is not understood that before life an individual decides to
live. A self is not simply the accidental personification of the
body's biological mechanism. Each person born desires to be born.
He dies when that desire no longer operates. No epidemic or illness
or natural disaster - or stray bullet from a murderer's gun - will
kill a person who does not want to die."
------------------------"You choose this place and time for your own reasons and your own
challenges... And so this planet is not peopled with strangers, but
those who are already psychically united." -------------------“The child must mature, and your system is a maturing ground, a very primary one…. A beginning school…”

“The human race is a stage though which various forms of consciousness travel. Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must first learn to handle energy and see, through physical materialization, the concrete result of thought and emotion.”

“In more advanced systems, thoughts, and emotions are automatically and immediately translated into action, into whatever approximation of matter there exists. Therefore, the lessons must be taught and learned well. The responsibility for creation must be clearly understood.”
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:34 pm

Pragmatism: you don't have to know, understand, or believe: anything. Just do what works..... avoid what doesn't work.

Mix and Match.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Kevin Levites » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Kevin Levites wrote:A part of me ( and maybe this is arrogance) hopes that God's existence is never proven or disproven.
Why? what difference does it make????? Unless at the same time it decided to step up and start doing something? As we observe the Universe operating on natural physical laws, it "appears" there is no god at all. so...if there is a god: how would you know...and who cares?


Kevin Levites wrote:If God's existence is proven, then why have need of curiosity?
My godness. Have you no History, no insight into yourself? Seems to me the very first item of curiosity would be the validity of the proof? Dawkins has gone Plus One recently claiming that even if God appeared to us all....it is so illogical that he would have to prefer the explanation of Alien Trickery on the scale of David Copperfield making the Eiffel Tower disappear. AFTER TELLING GOD TO LEAVE ME ALONE, my curiosity would pretty quickly move to the question of evil in the world, how free will exists, why punish us for what Adam and Eve did....etc. LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

Kevin Levites wrote:All questions are answered. Where is the motivation to do science, when it would just be easier to wait for death.
"Goddidit"==?==>actually explains NOTHING, even if true. We continue to do science in order to enjoy its fruits....and for many not even to delay death but to make like more disease free. Really, your understanding of a living god is gibberish.

Kevin Levites wrote:I could see a society with absolute proof of God's existence becoming death-centered...like the ancient Eqyptians.
"Sounds like": you are curious about what god existing would mean for the human race?

Kevin Levites wrote: Maybe God exists, but is invisible because (S)He loves us.
.... and rides a unicorn.

I understand your points, and I was, perhaps, a bit hasty in running my mouth.

Thank you for answering my post.
"I'm allergic to B.S., and I think I need some Benadryl."

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Re: The Universe Wasn't An Accident

Postby Gord » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:38 pm

Zosimus wrote:This "Skeptics Society" doesn't seem that skeptical, really. Perhaps the name should be changed to the nod-in-unison society.

:befuddled:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE


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