Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby djembeweaver » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:15 pm

Some ant colonies produce solutions to complex problems that make it appear that they are 'intelligent' when in fact each insect has only a very basic nervous system. Using the same logic as ID you would have to conclude that these insects were intelligent.

For example some ants have the ability to find the shortest route through a complex maze. They do it without any intelligence whatsoever in the following way:

If enough ants are released into a maze with food on the other side they will wander around randomly at first. Each ant releases a pheromone so that others will follow in their paths. The more that travel a particular route the stronger the pheromone trail gets on that route. Because the pheromones evaporate over time shorter routes build up higher concentrations of pheromones than longer routes and so eventually a kind of feedback loop ends up in all the ants following on the same route...the shortest one!

By the same logic: Every time a complex problem like maze is solved it was solved by an intelligent being. This complex maze is solved by ants. Therefore ants are intelligent.

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:56 pm

..........or......solving a maze is not complex?.....but I dither.

Whats more "amazing" than solving the maze is that certain foraging ants go 100's of yards from their nest in a random fashion BUT when they find a supply of food they can walk back DIRECTLY to their nest and a few minutes later a gang of ants from the nest march DIRECTLY back to the food cache. The food cache march is the pheramone trail left by the finding ant....but how did that ant walk directly back to the nest? We can "say" he kept an internal map, or tracked the sun or magnetic waves....but so far...no one knows.

Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.
Yep. I'm sort of with you on this. Evolution has no plan. It throws up mutations and if those mutations are beneficial the species, it thrives. Therefore some of the millions and millions of unpredictable little evolutionary changes that make a species' behaviour change, are artificially lumped into what humans think of as intelligence, but it does seem to be an arbitrary filter. I think it comes back to our human habit of always comparing other living things to ourselves, which is probably a bit stupid.

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:..........or......solving a maze is not complex?.....but I dither.

Whats more "amazing" than solving the maze is that certain foraging ants go 100's of yards from their nest in a random fashion BUT when they find a supply of food they can walk back DIRECTLY to their nest and a few minutes later a gang of ants from the nest march DIRECTLY back to the food cache. The food cache march is the pheramone trail left by the finding ant....but how did that ant walk directly back to the nest? We can "say" he kept an internal map, or tracked the sun or magnetic waves....but so far...no one knows.

Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.

All that cheering from the crowd made it piddle a little on its trek.


And ants, pffttt.... behold the yellow smartypants!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75k8sqh5tfQ


(But I wonder if it rafts as well...)



Edited to fix video. :pardon:
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:16 am

video still not working in Firefox. I'll Open IE later to view it.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:26 am

Can you see me now? :-P
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:29 am

Yes....didn't mean for any extra work. What did you do?

..............obviously, those slime molds were given a cheat code!
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:08 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Can you see me now? :-P
Yes.

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes....didn't mean for any extra work. What did you do?



Edited (pencil icon) to change/delete the [ytube] code to [bbvideo] using the provided Image button in the editor.

No work at all. :-D
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Can you see me now? :-P
Yes.
:purplex: ..... :bag:





Spoiler:
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:..........or......solving a maze is not complex?.....but I dither.

Whats more "amazing" than solving the maze is that certain foraging ants go 100's of yards from their nest in a random fashion BUT when they find a supply of food they can walk back DIRECTLY to their nest and a few minutes later a gang of ants from the nest march DIRECTLY back to the food cache. The food cache march is the pheramone trail left by the finding ant....but how did that ant walk directly back to the nest? We can "say" he kept an internal map, or tracked the sun or magnetic waves....but so far...no one knows.

Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.


Honeybees use sunlight polarisation to find home, and ants not being that far from bees - if not already tested....

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:51 am

TJrandom wrote:Honeybees use sunlight polarisation to find home, and ants not being that far from bees - if not already tested....

Did you make that up, or read it somewhere?.......because it has the first impression value of saying that like ants, bees lay pheromone trails on the ground for other bees to follow. Thats no farther either....nor that ants build honeycombs....oops...I think they do, but stuff them with larvae?...Some species anyway. Ants vary about as much from one species to another as they do from bees.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Honeybees use sunlight polarisation to find home, and ants not being that far from bees - if not already tested....

Did you make that up, or read it somewhere?.......because it has the first impression value of saying that like ants, bees lay pheromone trails on the ground for other bees to follow. Thats no farther either....nor that ants build honeycombs....oops...I think they do, but stuff them with larvae?...Some species anyway. Ants vary about as much from one species to another as they do from bees.


Nope - I did not make up the part that honeybees use light polarisation to find home. Scientists have changed polarisation to prove it. This is scientifically proven/shown.

As for ants.... they are closer to bees than I am, I do not use light polarisation, so just maybe.....

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:33 pm

There's nothing intelligent about this design:

Image
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:37 pm

Deadman squawking!
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:37 pm

BTW, the "convertible roof" was done to save metal, not for sex appeal.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:BTW, the "convertible roof" was done to save metal, not for sex appeal.


A perfect example of "preadaptation". :pr:
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:57 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:BTW, the "convertible roof" was done to save metal, not for sex appeal.


A perfect example of "preadaptation". :pr:



...looks like the world's ugliest man with a fully receded hairline.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:06 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:BTW, the "convertible roof" was done to save metal, not for sex appeal.


I thought that was the door - the others just painted on....

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:56 pm

TJrandom wrote:Nope - I did not make up the part that honeybees use light polarisation to find home. Scientists have changed polarisation to prove it. This is scientifically proven/shown..

The question regarded the notion that ANTS used polarized light. Did you read that or make a loose hypothesis?
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The question regarded the notion that ANTS used polarized light.
TJrandom is pretty good with facts concerning insects. He's a bee keeper for his hobby.

Polarized Light and Polarization Vision in Animal Sciences
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=5g ... ce&f=false

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:32 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The question regarded the notion that ANTS used polarized light.
TJrandom is pretty good with facts concerning insects. He's a bee keeper for his hobby.

Polarized Light and Polarization Vision in Animal Sciences
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=5g ... ce&f=false

Facts are facts, dots are dots, connections are connections. As you missed the point, I'll now assume Tj made more than a typo: yes bees used polarized light for navigation/location and bees are closely related to ants BUT as I stated in my setup==no one knows how ants do the straight line back to nest thing and ants have not been xxxxxxQUICK GOOGLE xxxx ok...so its "textbook" that ants use polarized light--I just have not heard of it. Don't you just love the Google? but..."last I read" still no agreement on how ants do the straight walk think. We could all make some resonable guesses, but how it done is not known....might vary by species too?

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/33/12575.full
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:58 am

My ant hypothesis was loose, just like my aunt is reported to be. But I had no proof for either, and hadn`t done any research. That said, my honeybee researcher/cum professor once said – bees and ants are closely related, so it is best to not use anti-ant pesticide anywhere near the hives.

By observation, ants and honeybees do live harmoniously in bee hives. Thanks for the ant polarisation link.

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Gord » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes....didn't mean for any extra work. What did you do?



Edited (pencil icon) to change/delete the [ytube] code to [bbvideo] using the provided Image button in the editor.

No work at all. :-D

Ohhhhh!

I can do that.

Wait, do I have to specify a height and width or will it do it automatically if I leave it out?
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Gord » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:55 pm

:wave: hi landrew
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:00 am

Gord wrote::wave: hi landrew

Hi Gord.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Flash » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:04 am

What? Landrew is back? Hello there Landrew, I see you got a new suit, looks very expensive, eh? ;)
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:07 am

Flash wrote:What? Landrew is back? Hello there Landrew, I see you got a new suit, looks very expensive, eh? ;)

3512.jpg
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Flash wrote:What? Landrew is back? Hello there Landrew, I see you got a new suit, looks very expensive, eh? ;)

3512.jpg


He looks shifty.....

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:22 pm

Flash wrote:What? Landrew is back? Hello there Landrew, I see you got a new suit, looks very expensive, eh? ;)

I'm back for nostalgic reasons; I missed you guys.

I'm sure that will wear off soon...
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby busterggi » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:32 pm

Well we've missed you too. You've no idea how many folks we destroyed while you were away.

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:42 pm

busterggi wrote:Well we've missed you too. You've no idea how many folks we destroyed while you were away.

Yeah, that's great. I guess that "destroyer" attitude is part of the reason I left.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:39 am

landrew wrote:Yeah, that's great. I guess that "destroyer" attitude is part of the reason I left.

Was Nietzsche right?
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
landrew wrote:Yeah, that's great. I guess that "destroyer" attitude is part of the reason I left.

Was Nietzsche right?

Probably, otherwise we wouldn't know his name.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Monster » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.
Yep. I'm sort of with you on this. Evolution has no plan. It throws up mutations and if those mutations are beneficial the species, it thrives. Therefore some of the millions and millions of unpredictable little evolutionary changes that make a species' behaviour change, are artificially lumped into what humans think of as intelligence, but it does seem to be an arbitrary filter. I think it comes back to our human habit of always comparing other living things to ourselves, which is probably a bit stupid.

Regarding design, Michael Shermer said that nature really does look designed, but that doesn't mean that it was designed. Richard Dawkins said that species are indeed designed, but not by any intelligence, but rather by natural selection. I agree with both.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:16 pm

In the case of human intelligence and dexterity, every minuscule increment along the way is useful.

So the difference between humans and other animals is actually one of the poorest arguments against evolution.

Stick with the icky stuff like parasitic wasps if you're looking for things that at least appear to be miraculously created.

Philosophical digression:

While the "intelligent design" pushers tend to be religious fundamentalists, wouldn't a genuinely intelligent design for the universe include laws of nature that facilitate evolution?

Of course that still leaves some wiggle room for the creator subtly tweaking things in a certain direction afterward, and maybe a few miracles too.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:20 pm

Regarding human evolution the discovery of Homo naledi suggests that many of the traits that we use to determine "human" were in place before the brain started to get larger. It's almost as if our brain grew as it found uses for all this lovely "machinery" of the human body.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:19 am

Evolution as understood by the non-scientist, just active reader:

"In the case of human intelligence and dexterity, every minuscule increment along the way is useful." /// Not true. Evolution carries along a lot of unuseful even deleterious adaptations. Bipedalism brings back aches for instance.

So the difference between humans and other animals is actually one of the poorest arguments against evolution. /// Or just the opposite as in interests or relevance. Depends on what the difference is. I find what is "in common" to actually be more interesting, but that is a different from what you raise.

Stick with the icky stuff like parasitic wasps if you're looking for things that at least appear to be miraculously created. /// Such statements are always based on the ignorance of the reader on the subject of evolution. Eg--what is the miracle of the parasitic wasp?

Philosophical digression:

While the "intelligent design" pushers tend to be religious fundamentalists, wouldn't a genuinely intelligent design for the universe include laws of nature that facilitate evolution? /// Sure...take the core meaning of the concept and change it to mean its complete opposite, and you have a different subject.

Of course that still leaves some wiggle room for the creator subtly tweaking things in a certain direction afterward, and maybe a few miracles too. /// There ya go....back on track.
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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby MrIntelligentDesign » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:27 am

Monster wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, evolution can look like intelligence and design if that is how you define intelligence and design.
Yep. I'm sort of with you on this. Evolution has no plan. It throws up mutations and if those mutations are beneficial the species, it thrives. Therefore some of the millions and millions of unpredictable little evolutionary changes that make a species' behaviour change, are artificially lumped into what humans think of as intelligence, but it does seem to be an arbitrary filter. I think it comes back to our human habit of always comparing other living things to ourselves, which is probably a bit stupid.

Regarding design, Michael Shermer said that nature really does look designed, but that doesn't mean that it was designed. Richard Dawkins said that species are indeed designed, but not by any intelligence, but rather by natural selection. I agree with both.

Regarding design, Michael Shermer said that nature really does look designed, but that doesn't mean that it was designed. Richard Dawkins said that species are indeed designed, but not by any intelligence, but rather by natural selection.

THESE are conclusions that have no science at all!

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Poodle » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:46 am

MrIntelligentDesign wrote: ...THESE are conclusions that have no science at all!


That is a statement which has no premises at all.


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