Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:31 pm

And the sparrows are a lot younger that all of them.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Poodle » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:01 pm

An argument for widespread abiogenesis makes me feel very happy, but I'm not sure why it does that. Just that it does.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:16 pm

A danger sign for a skeptic. Poodle.
If it makes you happy, beware. That leads to emotional logic, which is so often totally wrong.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:25 pm

Poodle wrote:An argument for widespread abiogenesis makes me feel very happy, but I'm not sure why it does that. Just that it does.
It leads to the possibility that some day there might be intelligent life in this universe, or has been.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:54 pm

The complexity of life, destined to become the regenerators of new universes which are again capable of developing beings who can perpetually create similar universes, will require formation and sterile death of an infinite numbers of universes. Only once godly life has to become successful, but, probability dictates the formation and destruction of an infinite number of sterile universes for this to occur.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:08 pm

Deepak, is that you?
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:27 pm

For me, the concept of panspermia isn't as far out there as it is for some. I think the fundamentals of life can be contained within microbes and spores which could make their way between planets. I believe that 90% of the complexity of life had already evolved within single celled organisms.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:19 am

maunas wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:54 pm
The complexity of life, destined to become the regenerators of new universes
....and how exactly are these life form thingees meant to move between new universes if the initial singularity could carry no information and the Big Bang's initial temperature was 1 billion degrees, 109 K?

Even better, as there was no atoms, in our early universe, what was this "universe jumping life form" meant to eat?

Why is there no such early life form in our universe?

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:29 am

Think, how, why.? I am on sickbed wth Dengue as well as typhoid.
I had explained , at some length, but by mistake back button got touched and so all information has now been washed out.
But see another universe started evolving.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:31 am

Some other day, maybe, i will write again.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:50 am

maunas wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:29 am
But see another universe started evolving.
Universes can't evolve as they don't have offspring with partners to pass down evolved attributes

However, you say you are not well and I understand that. I will wait for you to write another day.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:41 pm

Thanks Matthew for your sympathy. Though I am still very sick, i am feeling the strength to remind and clarify to you that
1) One, new,"" mono- universe" is created just before the last clue of the current universe disappears.
2) From sterile universe, it is meant that, "this type of universe did not get an opportunity to develop complex god like beings I.e (those capable of recreating another replica of the next god managed universe."

3)Their are no aliens and God is destiny of man,. Such, and a lot of your other similar doubts and questions have already been answered by me through authoritative scientific data many years back.
4) Also take note that, if at all we make godly multiverses, we are able to jump from one to the other (words used to express, chosen by you.) Without moving in real classical sense.

5) If i am successful in surviving, may be I will write more.

6) Saying that universes can not evolve because they do not have offspring to pass down evolved attributes, is a wrong statement "BECAUSE, IT IS FINALLY ENTROPY WHICH IS CAUSE OF UNIVERSAL CHANGE/EVOLUTION. WE ALSO KNOW EXAMPLES OF ASEXUALLY reproducing LIFE, thriving with insignificant change since last millions of years.

IN MY OPINION, LIFE CAN NOT BE DISTINGUISHED FROM DEAD, EXCEPT IN CASE OF GOD, WHO SHOULD REMAIN IMMOTAL
(I have already talked under the topic "Crux of Cosmos".....As to how godly genes are transferred from one iteration of the universe to the next.
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Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:56 pm

maunas wrote:6) Saying that universes can not evolve because they do not have offspring to pass down evolved attributes, is a wrong statement "BECAUSE, IT IS FINALLY ENTROPY WHICH IS CAUSE OF UNIVERSAL CHANGE/EVOLUTION. WE ALSO KNOW EXAMPLES OF ASEXUALLY reproducing LIFE, thriving with insignificant change since last millions of years.
IN MY OPINION, LIFE CAN NOT BE DISTINGUISHED FROM DEAD, EXCEPT IN CASE OF GOD, WHO SHOULD REMAIN IMMOTAL
Evolution is about mutation and different gene frequencies in a common pool, allowing for better adaption to a changing environment. If you claim all universes are constant in entropy, there is nothing to adapt to. You are simply identifying a law of physics and this has nothing to do with evolution.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:16 am

Universes may be more or less in entropy. If the comparative entropy is high, then, mutation and adaptation rates can be higher, if reproductive rates too remain high. Such species may evolve faster.
WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?
AS FINALLY THE RATE OF EVOLUTION TRICKLES DOWN TO AN OPTIMUM RATE OF ENTROPY.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:39 am

maunas wrote: Universes may be more or less in entropy.
You mean the law of physics in one universe may be different to the law of physics in another universe and the resulting collective measurement of entropy may vary.

Well if that were the case then how is a universe with one particular law of physics going to be in another universe in the first place? Where did the random mutations enter the "gene pool". That's not evolution.

Maunas? Can you set out for us what you think the scientific theory of evolution is? I am suspicious you may not know what it is.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am

Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think. Natural selection and recombination are what drive evolution. Few new genes are formed from a mutation. Exceptions are lack of pigment, vestigial organs and anything caused by a defective gene, which is usually a recessive trait. It takes many generations of natural selection for a new trait to become important in a population.

Insects give us an insight into this process, because they reproduce quickly, and in such high numbers, therefore giving us a window to what happens in higher animals over longer time frames. For example, when a pesticide is applied to billions of insects, natural selection takes over and finds a gene which creates resistance to the pesticide. This individual goes on to found a new resistant population. We see this process accelerated even faster with microbial evolution.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 am

landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am
Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think.
Agreed. However I'm waiting for Maunas to set out his "universes evolve" claim using a scientific statement. Currently he is simply mixing up words used concerning evolution with physics as he gives new meanings to already existing words. :D

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gord » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 am
landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am
Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think.
Agreed. However I'm waiting for Maunas to set out his "universes evolve" claim using a scientific statement. Currently he is simply mixing up words used concerning evolution with physics as he gives new meanings to already existing words. :D
I believe he's using an already-existing definition of the word. Biological evolution is not the only example where the word "evolution" is used; in other disciplines, they use the word but apply a different defintition to it. For example, in astronomy they use the word when they talk about "stellar evolution". Obviously when we talk about the Theory of Evolution, we're using the definition that biologists would use: https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Evolution

In other areas, a more generic definition might apply: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evolve
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Gord wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 am
landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am
Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think.
Agreed. However I'm waiting for Maunas to set out his "universes evolve" claim using a scientific statement. Currently he is simply mixing up words used concerning evolution with physics as he gives new meanings to already existing words. :D
I believe he's using an already-existing definition of the word. Biological evolution is not the only example where the word "evolution" is used; in other disciplines, they use the word but apply a different defintition to it. For example, in astronomy they use the word when they talk about "stellar evolution". Obviously when we talk about the Theory of Evolution, we're using the definition that biologists would use: https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Evolution

In other areas, a more generic definition might apply: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evolve
But biological evolution is the precursor to societal and technological evolution, therefore it could be argued that they are all elements of the same thing.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:55 pm

I think both Gord and LAndrews are right. However I think the best plan would be to let Maunas clarify his claim.

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Re: Study: Trump Voters are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gord » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:03 pm

I just wanted to post here so I could change the title of the thread.
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Re: Study: Trump Voters are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:18 pm

Gord wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:03 pm
I just wanted to post here so I could change the title of the thread.
I might have said "Simple Life Forms are Common throughout the Trump Universe."
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:32 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am
Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think. Natural selection and recombination are what drive evolution. Few new genes are formed from a mutation. Exceptions are lack of pigment, vestigial organs and anything caused by a defective gene, which is usually a recessive trait. It takes many generations of natural selection for a new trait to become important in a population.

Insects give us an insight into this process, because they reproduce quickly, and in such high numbers, therefore giving us a window to what happens in higher animals over longer time frames. For example, when a pesticide is applied to billions of insects, natural selection takes over and finds a gene which creates resistance to the pesticide. This individual goes on to found a new resistant population. We see this process accelerated even faster with microbial evolution.
When most mutations are disruptive, then origin of life becomes impossible.
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:44 pm

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:32 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 am
Mutations are disruptive to the genome, but they don't drive evolution as some people think. Natural selection and recombination are what drive evolution. Few new genes are formed from a mutation. Exceptions are lack of pigment, vestigial organs and anything caused by a defective gene, which is usually a recessive trait. It takes many generations of natural selection for a new trait to become important in a population.

Insects give us an insight into this process, because they reproduce quickly, and in such high numbers, therefore giving us a window to what happens in higher animals over longer time frames. For example, when a pesticide is applied to billions of insects, natural selection takes over and finds a gene which creates resistance to the pesticide. This individual goes on to found a new resistant population. We see this process accelerated even faster with microbial evolution.
When most mutations are disruptive, then origin of life becomes impossible.
I think this misconception comes from the movies. "Radiation = mutants."
Even before my graduate school classes in genetics, I knew that evolution was a lot more sophisticated than that. Mutations are simply genetic errors, and a large doze of radiation can cause a large number of birth defects, the vast majority being fatal. Most new genetic traits originate from replication errors, where the building blocks are arranged a little differently, and the result is rarely something beneficial and selected for by the environment.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:17 pm

When we see an effect of entropy on genetics of biophysical structures, we have a psychological tendency to understand that effect as being a result of adaptive natural selection.
But, these are generally cases of entropy masquerading as a driver of evolution for the TIME BEING. The so seen adaptation itself becomes an harbinger of environmental change which could be necessary for extinction of that entity in future.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:04 pm

The appearance of a new gene, beneficial to the survival of an individual is not entropy. Life itself towers above entropy, increasing in complexity over millions of years.
The appearance of DDT-resistant mosquitoes is due to the appearance of a complex gene or set of genes which allow an individual to survive where billions or trillions had died before. This has little to do with the entropy of a mutation or defective gene. It was an unimaginable number of rolls of the dice before it delivered a result.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am

maunas wrote:When most mutations are disruptive, then origin of life becomes impossible.
That's not how genetics works. You have many copies, some corrupt and some not, on the same genome. That's how epigenetic alternatives can replace primary genes.

However, I ask you to set out your hypothesis in full and using established scientific terms.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:55 am

landrew wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:04 pm
The appearance of a new gene, beneficial to the survival of an individual is not entropy.
Agreed. Entropy has nothing to do with evolution and that claim was already debunked with Lamarkian genetics 100 years ago.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:23 am

The use of words "adaptation" and "beneficial" in evolutionary biology are misnomers, confusing people.
Rather than saying adaptation...It is adjustment of entropies of various species among each other and with the rest of the environment. This is the jungle.
The so called beneficial genetic resistance is, most of the times, an extra load on the genome to produce an extra protein, so this change is also an effect of entropy.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am
maunas wrote:When most mutations are disruptive, then origin of life becomes impossible.
That's not how genetics works. You have many copies, some corrupt and some not, on the same genome. That's how epigenetic alternatives can replace primary genes.

However, I ask you to set out your hypothesis in full and using established scientific terms.
Only truth will prevail. Let it emerge.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However, I ask you to set out your hypothesis in full and using established scientific terms.
maunas wrote:Only truth will prevail. Let it emerge.
I assume that means you cannot set out your hypothesis concerning simple life and entropy, or alternatively, you wan't more time to work on it.

Fair enough.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am
maunas wrote:When most mutations are disruptive, then origin of life becomes impossible.
That's not how genetics works. You have many copies, some corrupt and some not, on the same genome. That's how epigenetic alternatives can replace primary genes.

However, I ask you to set out your hypothesis in full and using established scientific terms.
When corruption is more frequent, ordered systems can not form/work.
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:34 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:However, I ask you to set out your hypothesis in full and using established scientific terms.
maunas wrote:Only truth will prevail. Let it emerge.
I assume that means you cannot set out your hypothesis concerning simple life and entropy, or alternatively, you wan't more time to work on it.

Fair enough.
I told you, I am very sick. Thank you for giving me more time.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Io » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:21 am

maunas wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:38 am
When corruption is more frequent, ordered systems can not form/work.
One cannot apply an absolute state as the counter to a ranged state without at least specifying a threshold.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am

The first so understood simple organisms were characterised by the greatest number of possible configurations of interactions between the molecules in and around their bodies. That is to say, so called simple life originates in an environment of high entropy values, BUT, in order for their living organisations to get fixed, they should be lucky enough to get exposed and survive a freeze- thaw cycle. In other words, fluctuations of high and low entropy in the environment, selects a molecular structure to allow it's entry into the realm of life.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:04 pm

maunas wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am
The first so understood simple organisms were characterised by the greatest number of possible configurations of interactions between the molecules in and around their bodies.
I don't think that is true. The first simple organisms were characterised by their ability to self replicate the same RNA .

Simply being characterised by the greatest number of interactions between molecules in the greatest number of configurations, does not mean the thing can self replicate ( reproduce)

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Life has two characteristics. Evolution and reproduction.

It has always amused me that most of the lists of characteristics published for living things would make a forest fire into a living thing. But a forest fire cannot evolve.

Mind you. Even my two are not perfect. There are software programs that exhibit evolution and reproduction, but I do not think those two factors exist in the real world when they exist only in the virtual world of a computer.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am
The first so understood simple organisms were characterised by the greatest number of possible configurations of interactions between the molecules in and around their bodies.
I don't think that is true. The first simple organisms were characterised by their ability to self replicate the same RNA .

Simply being characterised by the greatest number of interactions between molecules in the greatest number of configurations, does not mean the thing can self replicate ( reproduce)
How were the self replicating RNA's shielded from destruction by the intense ionizing radiations impinging the earth, in that era?
I was talkiing of pre-proto cell era..
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:09 pm

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 pm

How were the self replicating RNA's shielded from destruction by the intense ionizing radiations impinging the earth, in that era?
I was talkiing of pre-proto cell era..
It's been awhile since I read about this theory of abiogenesis, but I think it is believed to have happened in the ocean, where the water provided the radiation shielding.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:22 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:03 pm
Life has two characteristics. Evolution and reproduction.

It has always amused me that most of the lists of characteristics published for living things would make a forest fire into a living thing. But a forest fire cannot evolve.

Mind you. Even my two are not perfect. There are software programs that exhibit evolution and reproduction, but I do not think those two factors exist in the real world when they exist only in the virtual world of a computer.
During the pre- proto cell era reproduction was due to more or less random factors, while,, evolution has been a universal phenomenon always.
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