The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

What you think about how you think.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:21 am

phpBB [video]


Black screen on my Firefox, but your browser might work? Link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2 ... content=44

Its 35 min long but worth the watch in my book....with the "results" starting at 19 min. I did not watch the last 10 minutes....comment if you think it has anything?

The experiment is interestingly set up and very "fair" and real I think. The outcome is what I would have guessed. Hmmm....is this a good example of why Pyrrhoism is faulty? What is the "equal argument" in NOT switching the train to track No 2?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9039
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:30 am

Nice...

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31113
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
phpBB [video]


Black screen on my Firefox, but your browser might work?

Nope. Is this it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=1sl5KJ69qiA
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:31 pm

Thats it. thanks for your help. I would be interested to know a bit more as in the "take action" rate if the testees had some introduction to the moral issues involved. perhaps it would be to obvious a "set up" to work.....but what else is experience but being "set up" to deal with otherwise unfamiliar/first time experiences?

I remember my training for "spin recovery" in aircraft. Scared the bejebus out of me in concept...twirling around like that, but my training was: push the stick forward and stomp on the opposite rudder. Near the end of my training, I had passed the course but needed a few more hours to pass...so I was sent into the air with nothing to do. Not a good thing to do with a 22 yo aviator. .........so, I was dicking around seeing how far up I could point the nose of the a/c using as much power as I had and not gain altitude. Well, I got going too slow in forward airspeed, and the a/c just flipped over into a spin. I followed my training...and came right out of it. Hooray for thinking things thru before you get nailed.

I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?.........and some call me pessimistic?

Related issue is often to put the single person on the other track a close relative or loved one. What is the moral challenge there? I say: run over the 5 people.....their karma was not with them that day....and I accept others would do the same for their loved ones. Its what being loved and Karma means. The issue for me then would be: how many strangers is my loved one worth? Now......THAT..... is a moral dilemma for me. I really don't like thinking about it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:32 pm

Oh.....I also thought it was excellent and a nice touch for the experiment to end with a "No one was hurt" notice. That was well done/thought thru. good job all around.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9039
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:20 am

Now if that one person were Trump... ;) you might not need any people on the other track - just the possibility that someone might wander along. :twisted:

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3906
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:18 am

I think this totally misses the point of consequentialism: morality is decidedly not about what we would do in any given situation, but what we believe we ought to do.
I know that the trolley problem was originally designed as a "gotcha" for consequentialists, but it actually never was: consequentialism isn't about who has and who hasn't the conviction to actually follow their moral beliefs: that is a problem everyone faces regardless of ideology.
"'I don't know what I was doing wrong, but I promise I won't do it again."
- Daddy Pig

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31113
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?

Hell no! I wouldn't, if I were allowed the chance to think it through first.

If it's morally right to sacrifice one innocent person who would otherwise have survived in order to save five others who are going to die, then is it alright to kill one person in order to harvest his or her organs in order to transplant them into five patients who are going to die without organ transplants?

Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:31 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I think this totally misses the point of consequentialism: morality is decidedly not about what we would do in any given situation, but what we believe we ought to do.
I know that the trolley problem was originally designed as a "gotcha" for consequentialists, but it actually never was: consequentialism isn't about who has and who hasn't the conviction to actually follow their moral beliefs: that is a problem everyone faces regardless of ideology.

Gee EM....I think the point is all about consequentialism. "Most people" think the switch ought to be thrown supporting the morality of the greater good for more people. so, the point here is to recognize that (I would say without training) most people freeze when presented with life or death situations and this freezing negates their moral position. Their own consequentialism is negated/confounded by deeper seated fear of taking action aka being responsible for situations they can otherwise avoid and justify.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:54 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?

Hell no! I wouldn't, if I were allowed the chance to think it through first.

If it's morally right to sacrifice one innocent person who would otherwise have survived in order to save five others who are going to die, then is it alright to kill one person in order to harvest his or her organs in order to transplant them into five patients who are going to die without organ transplants?
Thats a nice twist as before I stop and consider it, in the first case, my gut says YES it is morally right and correct to kill the one to save the five AND morally wrong not to. And vice versa for the organ transplant.

Now.....the consideration............................................................................................................
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Hmmmm...actual consideration makes this a closer question than my guts normally deal with. The organ transplant hypo has many more unknown variables. The main one in my value system is that the five folks who would benefit from the transplants are playing the hands their genetics and life style choices have given them. IOW: I don't have much sympathy for someone who needs lungs because of smoking, or a liver due to alcoholism and so forth. Consideration though forces me to make the closer question: all five recipients have made healthy life choices and just got bad dna. Well, I still kinda lean with having to play those cards that were dealt and say let Darwin have his way. So now...all five recipients lead healthy lives and have good dna "but" they were subjected against their will to secret gubment experiments that went awry. Now what to do?

Five innocent lives saved by the taking of one innocent life. Any difference, consequential or otherwise between the railroad workers and the organ needers? I can identify a host of additional factors but sort through them to still have the nut of the problem survive. Five innocents vs one innocent. Logic tells me the organs should be taken. Heh, heh...my gut still says no. .......................................... thing is to get to the pure logical result, we do have to ignore the host of other variables that actually do exist. DNA, life choices, expected longevity, moral character and potential of those involved, cost of the procedures, involvement of others who may or may not agree, the need for government to be involved etc.

So.....in a vacuum, a "special case" can be made for harvesting the organs of one for the needs of more others, but practically the law should be based on the general case...not special cases. The general case is to play the cards you were dealt.



Gord wrote: Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).
Well....that just avoids the issue. Failure to deal with the hypothetical as given is just a failure to engage. Not good for critical thinking. Its like having a math test of 2+ 2 equals what, and you respond with 5 because you decided to add 2 + 3 instead. You didn't do the hypothetical: Bad math.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:57 pm

The trolley dilemma is not a hypothetical that "should be" avoided. It is here and now with those AI self driving cars. How should they be programmed?

Raise your hand: who wants robots programmed to kill five instead of one because one of the five might be able to warn the others? Or....who wants the decision left to a random number generator, even or odd, to hit which group?

Seems to me the consequences of the programming demand the greater good for the greater number. aka: never walk alone.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9039
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:02 pm

A `friend of the earther` might morally throw the switch to kill the greater number of people, being all concerned with the human impact. (pun intended)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:05 pm

TJ: yes, there is always politics.....or religion. That is what makes the LAW an ass, along with AI programmers.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3906
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:16 pm

concerning self-driving cars:
In the BBC comedy show John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme (worth checking out, there are a few episodes to be found on YT) there is one hilarious sketch (Series 6, Episode 2) about a women wanting to buy a self-driving car:
In short, she wants to have the moral module hacked so that the life of her and her family are considered much more valuable than anyone else on the road. In the end, she goes for the package which ranks the wellbeing of the occupants higher than that of all other beings on the planet combined. Then she asks the salesman: "But what happens if we encounter another car with the same setting?" He answers: "they fight to the death".
"'I don't know what I was doing wrong, but I promise I won't do it again."
- Daddy Pig

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:22 pm

Sounds like a good show. I also LMAO at an episode of Silicon Valley where the AI car misheard/did not follow directions and drove the assistant into a container and was shipped back to China. Lots of shows and movies about AI going wrong. Last weeks episode of X-Files had one of the Phone Assistants being mostly useless in the information and warnings they were giving out. We are only on the cusp.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:44 pm

EM: I looked for John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme on my internet tv and amazon tv that includes Netflicks....no joy. Oh.... A radio program? but you said you tube......

YouTube had 303 program shorts but i could not find any car sketch except for Yellow Car. Looks like some good humor to review later as sketches with Voltaire and Pachebel are not to be missed?

Listening to S6x02 now at https://archive.org/details/JFSP56/John ... mme602.mp3
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31113
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).

Well....that just avoids the issue. Failure to deal with the hypothetical as given is just a failure to engage. Not good for critical thinking. Its like having a math test of 2+ 2 equals what, and you respond with 5 because you decided to add 2 + 3 instead. You didn't do the hypothetical: Bad math.

I disagree. The trolley question is framed as a real-world event, as in "this could actually happen". It seems perfectly reasonable to use real-world experiences to deal with it.

Example hypothetical question: "You jump out of an airplane at 3000 feet and begin to plummet towards the ground. What do you do?"

My answer would be based on hypotheses of why I jumped out of the airplane in the first place. Would I do so without a parachute? That would be hard for me to imagine, so I can extrapolate myself wearing a parachute, and therefore my answer might be "pull the ripcord", even though the original question doesn't mention such an option.

Just look back at the video and you'll see people in real-world situations doing things other than "switch tracks" and "don't switch tracks". They all appear to be examining other options first. Some open the door and call for help. One guy stars pressing all the other buttons. I think it's only normal for anyone in such a situation to look for some way out other than killing one person to save five others.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3906
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:55 am

Yes, it is a radio program. Here is one sketch I found


https://youtu.be/UfE7atUd2Ag
"'I don't know what I was doing wrong, but I promise I won't do it again."
- Daddy Pig

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:42 pm

Gord: so how would you program the AI self driving car?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31113
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: so how would you program the AI self driving car?

Me? I wouldn't. I think in a situation like this, and AI would fail to consider all the relevant details.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:03 am

Fail.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9039
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:13 am

:roll: F AI L... so that is where AI comes from...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13891
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:33 am

Nice catch.........but I am 100% organic, maybe unreal, but not artificial.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


Return to “Brain, Mind, & Consciousness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests