The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

What you think about how you think.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:21 am

phpBB [video]


Black screen on my Firefox, but your browser might work? Link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2 ... content=44

Its 35 min long but worth the watch in my book....with the "results" starting at 19 min. I did not watch the last 10 minutes....comment if you think it has anything?

The experiment is interestingly set up and very "fair" and real I think. The outcome is what I would have guessed. Hmmm....is this a good example of why Pyrrhoism is faulty? What is the "equal argument" in NOT switching the train to track No 2?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:30 am

Nice...

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
phpBB [video]


Black screen on my Firefox, but your browser might work?

Nope. Is this it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=1sl5KJ69qiA
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:31 pm

Thats it. thanks for your help. I would be interested to know a bit more as in the "take action" rate if the testees had some introduction to the moral issues involved. perhaps it would be to obvious a "set up" to work.....but what else is experience but being "set up" to deal with otherwise unfamiliar/first time experiences?

I remember my training for "spin recovery" in aircraft. Scared the bejebus out of me in concept...twirling around like that, but my training was: push the stick forward and stomp on the opposite rudder. Near the end of my training, I had passed the course but needed a few more hours to pass...so I was sent into the air with nothing to do. Not a good thing to do with a 22 yo aviator. .........so, I was dicking around seeing how far up I could point the nose of the a/c using as much power as I had and not gain altitude. Well, I got going too slow in forward airspeed, and the a/c just flipped over into a spin. I followed my training...and came right out of it. Hooray for thinking things thru before you get nailed.

I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?.........and some call me pessimistic?

Related issue is often to put the single person on the other track a close relative or loved one. What is the moral challenge there? I say: run over the 5 people.....their karma was not with them that day....and I accept others would do the same for their loved ones. Its what being loved and Karma means. The issue for me then would be: how many strangers is my loved one worth? Now......THAT..... is a moral dilemma for me. I really don't like thinking about it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:32 pm

Oh.....I also thought it was excellent and a nice touch for the experiment to end with a "No one was hurt" notice. That was well done/thought thru. good job all around.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:20 am

Now if that one person were Trump... ;) you might not need any people on the other track - just the possibility that someone might wander along. :twisted:

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4117
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:18 am

I think this totally misses the point of consequentialism: morality is decidedly not about what we would do in any given situation, but what we believe we ought to do.
I know that the trolley problem was originally designed as a "gotcha" for consequentialists, but it actually never was: consequentialism isn't about who has and who hasn't the conviction to actually follow their moral beliefs: that is a problem everyone faces regardless of ideology.

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?

Hell no! I wouldn't, if I were allowed the chance to think it through first.

If it's morally right to sacrifice one innocent person who would otherwise have survived in order to save five others who are going to die, then is it alright to kill one person in order to harvest his or her organs in order to transplant them into five patients who are going to die without organ transplants?

Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:31 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I think this totally misses the point of consequentialism: morality is decidedly not about what we would do in any given situation, but what we believe we ought to do.
I know that the trolley problem was originally designed as a "gotcha" for consequentialists, but it actually never was: consequentialism isn't about who has and who hasn't the conviction to actually follow their moral beliefs: that is a problem everyone faces regardless of ideology.

Gee EM....I think the point is all about consequentialism. "Most people" think the switch ought to be thrown supporting the morality of the greater good for more people. so, the point here is to recognize that (I would say without training) most people freeze when presented with life or death situations and this freezing negates their moral position. Their own consequentialism is negated/confounded by deeper seated fear of taking action aka being responsible for situations they can otherwise avoid and justify.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:54 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?

Hell no! I wouldn't, if I were allowed the chance to think it through first.

If it's morally right to sacrifice one innocent person who would otherwise have survived in order to save five others who are going to die, then is it alright to kill one person in order to harvest his or her organs in order to transplant them into five patients who are going to die without organ transplants?
Thats a nice twist as before I stop and consider it, in the first case, my gut says YES it is morally right and correct to kill the one to save the five AND morally wrong not to. And vice versa for the organ transplant.

Now.....the consideration............................................................................................................
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Hmmmm...actual consideration makes this a closer question than my guts normally deal with. The organ transplant hypo has many more unknown variables. The main one in my value system is that the five folks who would benefit from the transplants are playing the hands their genetics and life style choices have given them. IOW: I don't have much sympathy for someone who needs lungs because of smoking, or a liver due to alcoholism and so forth. Consideration though forces me to make the closer question: all five recipients have made healthy life choices and just got bad dna. Well, I still kinda lean with having to play those cards that were dealt and say let Darwin have his way. So now...all five recipients lead healthy lives and have good dna "but" they were subjected against their will to secret gubment experiments that went awry. Now what to do?

Five innocent lives saved by the taking of one innocent life. Any difference, consequential or otherwise between the railroad workers and the organ needers? I can identify a host of additional factors but sort through them to still have the nut of the problem survive. Five innocents vs one innocent. Logic tells me the organs should be taken. Heh, heh...my gut still says no. .......................................... thing is to get to the pure logical result, we do have to ignore the host of other variables that actually do exist. DNA, life choices, expected longevity, moral character and potential of those involved, cost of the procedures, involvement of others who may or may not agree, the need for government to be involved etc.

So.....in a vacuum, a "special case" can be made for harvesting the organs of one for the needs of more others, but practically the law should be based on the general case...not special cases. The general case is to play the cards you were dealt.



Gord wrote: Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).
Well....that just avoids the issue. Failure to deal with the hypothetical as given is just a failure to engage. Not good for critical thinking. Its like having a math test of 2+ 2 equals what, and you respond with 5 because you decided to add 2 + 3 instead. You didn't do the hypothetical: Bad math.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:57 pm

The trolley dilemma is not a hypothetical that "should be" avoided. It is here and now with those AI self driving cars. How should they be programmed?

Raise your hand: who wants robots programmed to kill five instead of one because one of the five might be able to warn the others? Or....who wants the decision left to a random number generator, even or odd, to hit which group?

Seems to me the consequences of the programming demand the greater good for the greater number. aka: never walk alone.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:02 pm

A `friend of the earther` might morally throw the switch to kill the greater number of people, being all concerned with the human impact. (pun intended)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:05 pm

TJ: yes, there is always politics.....or religion. That is what makes the LAW an ass, along with AI programmers.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4117
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:16 pm

concerning self-driving cars:
In the BBC comedy show John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme (worth checking out, there are a few episodes to be found on YT) there is one hilarious sketch (Series 6, Episode 2) about a women wanting to buy a self-driving car:
In short, she wants to have the moral module hacked so that the life of her and her family are considered much more valuable than anyone else on the road. In the end, she goes for the package which ranks the wellbeing of the occupants higher than that of all other beings on the planet combined. Then she asks the salesman: "But what happens if we encounter another car with the same setting?" He answers: "they fight to the death".

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:22 pm

Sounds like a good show. I also LMAO at an episode of Silicon Valley where the AI car misheard/did not follow directions and drove the assistant into a container and was shipped back to China. Lots of shows and movies about AI going wrong. Last weeks episode of X-Files had one of the Phone Assistants being mostly useless in the information and warnings they were giving out. We are only on the cusp.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:44 pm

EM: I looked for John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme on my internet tv and amazon tv that includes Netflicks....no joy. Oh.... A radio program? but you said you tube......

YouTube had 303 program shorts but i could not find any car sketch except for Yellow Car. Looks like some good humor to review later as sketches with Voltaire and Pachebel are not to be missed?

Listening to S6x02 now at https://archive.org/details/JFSP56/John ... mme602.mp3
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:Besides, I've never seen it as an automatic death for the five people on the trolley's path. They could notice it coming and get out of its way. The more people in front of it, the more likely one or more of them will notice it coming and help the others avoid it. A single person (in my experience of being hit by moving objects) is more likely to be hit by the trolley, even if the other five see the trolley moving towards him because they're too far to manually help him (yelling at me to move has never saved me unless I already knew something was coming towards me).

Well....that just avoids the issue. Failure to deal with the hypothetical as given is just a failure to engage. Not good for critical thinking. Its like having a math test of 2+ 2 equals what, and you respond with 5 because you decided to add 2 + 3 instead. You didn't do the hypothetical: Bad math.

I disagree. The trolley question is framed as a real-world event, as in "this could actually happen". It seems perfectly reasonable to use real-world experiences to deal with it.

Example hypothetical question: "You jump out of an airplane at 3000 feet and begin to plummet towards the ground. What do you do?"

My answer would be based on hypotheses of why I jumped out of the airplane in the first place. Would I do so without a parachute? That would be hard for me to imagine, so I can extrapolate myself wearing a parachute, and therefore my answer might be "pull the ripcord", even though the original question doesn't mention such an option.

Just look back at the video and you'll see people in real-world situations doing things other than "switch tracks" and "don't switch tracks". They all appear to be examining other options first. Some open the door and call for help. One guy stars pressing all the other buttons. I think it's only normal for anyone in such a situation to look for some way out other than killing one person to save five others.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4117
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:55 am

Yes, it is a radio program. Here is one sketch I found


https://youtu.be/UfE7atUd2Ag

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:42 pm

Gord: so how would you program the AI self driving car?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: so how would you program the AI self driving car?

Me? I wouldn't. I think in a situation like this, and AI would fail to consider all the relevant details.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:03 am

Fail.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby TJrandom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:13 am

:roll: F AI L... so that is where AI comes from...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:33 am

Nice catch.........but I am 100% organic, maybe unreal, but not artificial.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Wordbird
Poster
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Wordbird » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:31 am

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I do assume, with any "exposure" to the issues, 100% of people would throw the switch?

Hell no! I wouldn't, if I were allowed the chance to think it through first.

If it's morally right to sacrifice one innocent person who would otherwise have survived in order to save five others who are going to die, then is it alright to kill one person in order to harvest his or her organs in order to transplant them into five patients who are going to die without organ transplants?


I wouldn't either. The lone man is standing where a train should not be. He may have taken every necessary precaution, but that is not true of the five - they can't have taken every necessary precaution, or they wouldn't be standing in a train's path.

It could be even worse than that. Imagine if you pulled the lever only to discover later that the five were trying to commit suicide, or they were a bunch of doped up teenagers.

But it could be even worse than that! Imagine if the five are stalking that one man, and knowing the "correct" answer, lauded by the researchers as courageous, they're using their own collectively more valuable lives, plus the train, and the idiot in the switching box, to murder that lone man.

If you don't know, don't act. That's the only universalisable thing, really.

And all this because they want to have cars swerve onto the sidewalk to kill one person who was doing the right thing and walking on the sidewalk instead of two who were running in the road.

Cars should not swerve onto sidewalks, period! If the pedestrians can feel safe there, they probably won't run in the road. If they can make cars swerve onto the sidewalk, every nasty little kid will do it for the yuks.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:05 pm

"Cars should not swerve onto sidewalks." ////I'm totally fine with that rule being applied.

It is NOT the hypothetical presented. Again: failure to engage.

Amusing how flexible and irrelevant people will get for whatever reasons they do when presented with undesireable outcomes. Just like Global Warming?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:15 pm

Gord wrote:One guy stars pressing all the other buttons.

What're you, drunk? :snide:

starts
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7935
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby landrew » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:52 pm

I think we need to ban discussing no-win scenarios.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:00 pm

Again: failure to engage. We win when 1 innocent person is killed instead of 5 innocent people.

Its: Math.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31613
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Gord » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Again: failure to engage. We win when 1 innocent person is killed instead of 5 innocent people.

Its: Math.

So we "win" when we kill one innocent person in order to distribute his organs to 5 other innocent people dying from failing organs.

Mark me down as "disagree".
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:49 am

Again: failure to engage. Nothing in the hypo about organ distribution or anything else other than "lives in being."

Why are you making stuff up?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7935
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:33 am

Who's going to make such a decision within a split-second?
No one, that's who.

Nobody will say afterwards: "Why didn't you throw the switch to kill one person instead of five?
Never happen.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7935
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:39 am

It was different when Harry S. Truman decided to drop 2 atomic bombs on Japan. He was trying to avoid a much greater loss of life that would be incurred by US forces if they were to try to invade and conquer Japan. The bomb was deemed at the time to be the best option for saving lives, according to my research.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9580
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Poodle » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:59 am

Y'know, I think this was covered in the original thread, where I think I said (or maybe not) something like...
This isn't a moral decision - it's simply about numbers, but even posed so simply it caused distress. The moral bit comes in because the potential switch thrower has no idea about the people being threatened. It's one person or five people, and if life was so simple, you throw the switch. Try adding some information - the single person has just had a child who will grow up to solve the world's food problems and save the lives of millions - or fails to do so because of the trauma of parental loss - whereas the five people have all been convicted of multiple child murders. Now ask the question again.
But even without such loading, most people froze. So it's patently obvious that five versus one rarely enters into the equation. The dilemma game is pointless and tells you absolutely sod all.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:50 am

I'm at a loss to understand the opposition here. The hypo sets forth a VERY EASY numbers game, NO OTHER FACTORS....yet few here are able to do the math.

A M A Z I N G !!!!!


Reality: YOU can choose to have one innocent life taken or five. You all freeze with an abundance of IRRELEVANT EXCUSES. That is the very NOT POINTLESS and FULL OF SOD truth about human behavior/INability to think. This follow on discussion only driving that point/realization home. I pity our species.

Is it my pilot training? If Radar shows you are seconds away from hitting a mountain peak....the only rational thing to do is to turn left or right and hope you miss the mountain (airplanes don't climb well at altitude with seconds to go). To FREEZE and do nothing is just...….plain.....stupid.

As stated somewhere above....I can see this reaction in an untrained/unexposed person. But not as with this discussion having the TIME to think all the option thru. Heh, heh....whole new hooman fraility to see the totally irrelevant additional facts added to the hypo in a failed attempt to justify the traumatic FREEZE when ACTION is called for.

You all need to think...………...more.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4117
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:46 am

In the trolley problem, our aversion to utilitarianism and our training of living in a State of Law, where no one should be judge, jury and executioner collide: even if we are certain that we are making the right decision, we don't think that we are entitled to make said decision.
But the only necessary authorization is the fact that we sit at the switch, and no one else is.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:54 am

Well said...………..but I'll quibble just a bit and note the hypo is OVERWEIGHED with moral elements. In fact, that's all it has. No utility at all.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9580
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby Poodle » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:00 pm

So, bobbo, why did you feel you had to describe the lives in question as 'innocent'? That is not a description that you'll find in the original statement - it's your own added qualification.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm

Very True Poodle. I guess I was over excited by the "facts" added by others. But...…...aren't we all innocent until proven otherwise?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14666
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:11 pm

…………...thinking/reflecting...……….. With this becoming a REAL DECISION with AI Driven Cars....its all about the rules one wants to put in place. We can imagine them all as we may BUT relevant to a few of the issues....the data basis will all be available. What additional "facts" other than "lives in being" should be used?

1. Someone suggested "no swerving onto sidewalks." //// Makes sense. People can choose to walk in order to avoid being in cars and car accidents.....Should such status override the pure numbers?

2. Age is always a good bias. //// My view: have the car swerve into the very young and the very old. I like middle aged people. They still have things to do and have proven themselves...…..and pay taxes.

3. Criminal Records? //// Does debt paid provide neutrality????

4. Single vs Married, With Kiddies or not?

…………...etc. I DO SEE all these facts available to the AI Car. With knowledge, comes responsibility.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4117
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: The Trolley Hypothetical Made REAL

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:20 pm

I would support people critical to the functioning of society to be permitted to carry radio-readable cards that would make an Automatic Car consider them more valuable to save than others: top politicians, high-ranking police officers, guardians of State Secrets etc.
Beyond that, I would program in a preference to safe those who would least likely survive a crash - usually the small, which most of the time is the same as the young.


Return to “Brain, Mind, & Consciousness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest