Why we think we have free will

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:27 am

Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
So just like a computer?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
How much free will did you think Charles Whitman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman had in the tower with that pecan sized tumour in his head?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by mirror93 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:55 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
And there is no other meaning for it.
:paladin:

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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:39 am

SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
How much free will did you think Charles Whitman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman had in the tower with that pecan sized tumour in his head?
Never having a pecan sized tumor in my head....I don't know. but making reasonable assumptions, or just arguendo: let's say NONE. Which also is the applicability of the question to people who don't have pecan sized tumors in their heads.

Why do you ask?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:41 am

SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
So just like a computer?
Like your following question just above: I don't know, I've never been a computer...…...etc.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:53 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
How much free will did you think Charles Whitman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman had in the tower with that pecan sized tumour in his head?
Never having a pecan sized tumor in my head....I don't know. but making reasonable assumptions, or just arguendo: let's say NONE. Which also is the applicability of the question to people who don't have pecan sized tumors in their heads.

Why do you ask?
You just gave a definition and I wanted you to expand on it. Do believe that you have control over what you do and don't do it every day life? If so, how much?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
So just like a computer?
Like your following question just above: I don't know, I've never been a computer...…...etc.
But you know that computers make choices when considering their options without the need for any free will? So it is a good analogy?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:04 am

SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
SEG wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Will is what hoomans experience when considering their options. Doesn't matter what else it is.
So just like a computer?
Like your following question just above: I don't know, I've never been a computer...…...etc.
But you know that computers make choices when considering their options without the need for any free will? So it is a good analogy?
But the choice will always be the same one, given the same set of variables. That's not free will, that's programmed and pre-determined.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:13 am

landrew wrote:But the choice will always be the same one, given the same set of variables. That's not free will, that's programmed and pre-determined.
Correct, that's why it is a good analogy.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:56 am

The variables always change with hoomans. We have the history of past choices. In essence: there is no "considering" in computers....only calculation. Choice becomes a questionable concept as well....but arguably closer than is consider.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:03 pm

If we had brains like ants, or birds for that matter, we would be likely to respond to each situation the same way every time. For example, when you disrupt a bird's nest, they can't repair it, and build a new one. Without the ability to think creatively, there can be no true free will.

Somewhere in our past, we acquired the ability to create a model of our world in our minds. We are able to imagine scenarios and run simulations of what might happen if we took different actions. A machine may be able to do this some day, but even that behavior would be following a set of algorithms as predictable as pre-set behaviors.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:40 am

I've seen videos of birds repairing nests all the time...like storks who use the same spot every year, or eagles adding new twigs and so forth. I'm sure some birds decide to build a new nest. All things are rarely the same.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The variables always change with hoomans.
You could say the same with computers.
We have the history of past choices.
So do computers and they consider past data, just like us.
In essence: there is no "considering" in computers....only calculation.
ten years ago computers had to think through lots of combinations and couldn't beat the best human chess players. Now they think a lot fast and beat them. That time difference could be called "considering the options".
Choice becomes a questionable concept as well....but arguably closer than is consider.
Computers make choices too, they also make errors.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:38 am

landrew wrote:If we had brains like ants, or birds for that matter, we would be likely to respond to each situation the same way every time. For example, when you disrupt a bird's nest, they can't repair it, and build a new one. Without the ability to think creatively, there can be no true free will.
Hold on, animals don't make the same choices all the time! Some animals have the abilities to think pretty much like us.

The real thing that separates us from other creatures is the way that we think and react in cultural and social aspects.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:17 am

Ask a computer to add 2 plus 2. The computer will answer 4 4ever.

Ask a hooman to add 2 plus 2 and you will almost aways get 4. No hooman will continue to answer 4 after a few more times.

Chess computers are still doing the calculations...….no thinking/choice involved.

Its all terminology. Do you have a dictionary?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ask a computer to add 2 plus 2. The computer will answer 4 4ever.

Ask a hooman to add 2 plus 2 and you will almost aways get 4. No hooman will continue to answer 4 after a few more times.

Chess computers are still doing the calculations...….no thinking/choice involved.

Its all terminology. Do you have a dictionary?
consider
kənˈsɪdə/Submit
verb
1.
think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision.
"each application is considered on its merits"
synonyms: think about, contemplate, give thought to, reflect on, examine, appraise, review; More
2.
look attentively at.
"the old man considered his granddaughter thoughtfully"
synonyms: look at, contemplate, observe, regard, survey, view, scrutinize, scan, examine, inspect; More
think
θɪŋk/Submit
verb
1.
have a particular belief or idea.
"she thought that nothing would be the same again"
synonyms: believe, be of the opinion, have as one's opinion, be of the view, be under the impression; More
2.
direct one's mind towards someone or something; use one's mind actively to form connected ideas.
"he was thinking about Colin"
synonyms: ponder, reflect, deliberate, meditate, contemplate, muse, cogitate, ruminate, be lost in thought, be in a brown study, brood; More
nouninformal
1.
an act of thinking.
"I went for a walk to have a think"
synonyms: ponder, muse, spell/period of deliberation/reflection/contemplation
"why don't you have a think about it?"
Can computers think? Sort of. Can they consider? Sort of. I know that computers and human minds aren't exactly the same, but the processing of information seems to be similar.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ask a computer to add 2 plus 2. The computer will answer 4 4ever.

Ask a hooman to add 2 plus 2 and you will almost aways get 4. No hooman will continue to answer 4 after a few more times.

Chess computers are still doing the calculations...….no thinking/choice involved.

Its all terminology. Do you have a dictionary?
consider
kənˈsɪdə/Submit
verb
1.
think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision.
"each application is considered on its merits"
synonyms: think about, contemplate, give thought to, reflect on, examine, appraise, review; More
2.
look attentively at.
"the old man considered his granddaughter thoughtfully"
synonyms: look at, contemplate, observe, regard, survey, view, scrutinize, scan, examine, inspect; More
think
θɪŋk/Submit
verb
1.
have a particular belief or idea.
"she thought that nothing would be the same again"
synonyms: believe, be of the opinion, have as one's opinion, be of the view, be under the impression; More
2.
direct one's mind towards someone or something; use one's mind actively to form connected ideas.
"he was thinking about Colin"
synonyms: ponder, reflect, deliberate, meditate, contemplate, muse, cogitate, ruminate, be lost in thought, be in a brown study, brood; More
nouninformal
1.
an act of thinking.
"I went for a walk to have a think"
synonyms: ponder, muse, spell/period of deliberation/reflection/contemplation
"why don't you have a think about it?"
Can computers think? Sort of. Can they consider? Sort of. I know that computers and human minds aren't exactly the same, but the processing of information seems to be similar.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:46 pm

No….not at all. You read those words very differently from anything neutral.....but its a start. Add: calculate.

Then observe attentively at your latest smart toaster: Mine has a circle that goes around and around to show how long the toast has been cooked. Is that thinking too?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by SEG » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No….not at all. You read those words very differently from anything neutral.....but its a start. Add: calculate.

Then observe attentively at your latest smart toaster: Mine has a circle that goes around and around to show how long the toast has been cooked. Is that thinking too?
If it is carefully considering all the options...Nah probably not. Does a cat or a dog think? Yep. Does a jellyfish? Yep. Does an amoeba? Yep. They are all hard wired to do what they do. If computers don't think atm, there is nothing we do that they can't do in the future.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:02 pm

"If.….Then"

If not if.....Then no Then.

Third Time: computers/machines "before" the cutting edge of self learning algorhythms did no thinking at all. As they become more complex....the line/definition will be more blurred, difficult to distinguish.

But not for my toaster, my calculator, nor every amoeba I have ever met.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Major Malfunction » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:51 pm

Once upon a time, my university was hosting a science carnival. It was a week of having highschool kids come into the uni, and experience science.

Promoting science, and enrollments.

They'd have an introduction lecture, two labs, lunch, two labs, closing tutorial/discussion.

Each of the four labs promoted the science tracts.

Since I was already there and employed as a reputable lab tech, I was tasked with the biology lab.

They'd cycle through the labs, so I got four groups of 40 kids every day.

We had 20 hefty microscopes. I had to clean all the lenses, and make sure they had fresh samples of dirty pond water every rotation.

And I'd go around and teach the kids how to use a microscope.

Then I had to clean it, pack it all away, then set it all up the next morning.

Science isn't as glorious as it's made out to be.

Anyway, backstory set. So now the story...

One of the things we did have was a powerful video microscope and a projection screen.

So I'm operating the dials, diving into this drop of dirty pond water, with my professor as the narrator, and I see a paramecium.

I locked focus on that little {!#%@}, and wouldn't let him go. I followed him around for an hour. He kept randomly bumping into {!#%@}. We saw an amoeba eating something, and the paramecium ran away. Then the paramecium caught something and ate it with its mouth hole. Slowly, sucking it in.

And that's when the lab ended.

The kids were silent the entire time. The professor leaned over to me and whispered, "Do that again".

Computers are nowhere near even single cellular intelligence.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:59 pm

Seriously, who but a pack of nerds even thinking about "free will"?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:11 am

I prefer geek. ;)
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:45 am

Seriously, who but a pack of geeks even thinking about "free will"?
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:19 am

We're all that's left after the warriors feel like they must kill each other.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:14 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Seriously, who but a pack of geeks even thinking about "free will"?
Gee, with a second go at the apple, shouldn't "thinking" be "thinks." You know: its proper Engrish. (sic for the humour).
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:41 am

The second was copied from the first, because it was just that important.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:49 am

Gawd, you know those stomping boots I sent you? Now's the time.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Granny said, "I know it's going to rain by the way bugs pile up dirt around their holes. They are smarter than we are."

Therein lies the fallacy about intelligence and free will. Millions of years of evolution have built triggers into organisms, but rarely has it built a supercomputer to do the job. It may be barometric pressure or a myriad of unthought-of factors, but it's not free will or intelligence. A bug has only a few thousand neurons at best.

A few years ago, someone built a six-legged walking machine, which required 4 Cray computers on-board, and gigabytes of programming. It could barely walk in anything resembling real time, having to take considerable time to calculate where to take the next step. But a fly can not only walk around quickly on six legs, it can also fly. It does all this with just a few thousand neurons. It's not supercomputing, nor is it free will. It's just superb adaptation to the environment.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr-wBpYpSfE
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:21 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr-wBpYpSfE
It sounds to me like they are still using a two-stroke gas engine for power. No different from 10 years ago.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:22 pm

A donkey is still the better solution.
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Re: Why we think we have free will

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:09 pm

landrew wrote:A donkey is still the better solution.
And you can build and fuel a whole one with grass.
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