Macho man

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Lance Kennedy
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Macho man

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Studies have shown that women are more attracted to men who display macho qualities in societies that are less secure, more violent, and more prone to crime. Women are less attracted to them, and more to men showing softer, more caring qualities in safer, more secure situations.

Is this because they are looking for a protector when things are rough, and a carer when things are easier?

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Re: Macho man

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:38 pm

So it would seem.
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Re: Macho man

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Studies have shown that women are more attracted to men who display macho qualities in societies that are less secure, more violent, and more prone to crime. Women are less attracted to them, and more to men showing softer, more caring qualities in safer, more secure situations. Is this because they are looking for a protector when things are rough, and a carer when things are easier?


I think we need to delve a bit deeper into the definition of "Macho". I think there are innate behavioural reasons some women prefer men who behave in a certain bad way (evolutionary). On the other hand there are cultural invented versions of Macho behaviour that are mere displays of power and money and so women consciously choose these men.

This bloke thinks he looks very macho, and, for his time, probably does.
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Re: Macho man

Postby Poodle » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:14 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:So it would seem.

I can almost feel the ice forming around that sentence :lol:

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Re: Macho man

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:03 pm

Poodle wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:So it would seem.

I can almost feel the ice forming around that sentence :lol:

I wonder why - I kinda agreed with Lance's question. :scratch:



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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:22 pm

Seems to me the wimmen's are acting consistently: what is the best way for me to raise my kiddies. Its not the attitude or desire that changes but the environment but Darwin has the final say.
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Re: Macho man

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I wonder why - I kinda agreed with Lance's question.

There's a pop-science book called "Red Queen" that discusses the different sexual behaviours between men and women as evolutionary strategies.

I think that all of us understand that there are sexual behavioural differences, but can console ourselves in that both men and women have different innate behavioural strategies where many could be considered bad behaviour.

I was sitting in the back of a car with a girl and a bloke and two blokes in the front seat. A "babe" is standing at the corner. The girl next to me whispered "watch" and all the males heads turned in sequence to look at the "babe." The girls sais "See! it's like clockwork!". This was a bit of a shock because it was like clockwork and it rammed home how obvious male behaviour is.
:D

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:32 pm

The example I like is a room full of male gynecologists who stare at a woman who stoops to pick up her dropped pencil.

The whole biological imperative hit me hard when first heard..........still does: "Is it me, or my function." While everybody says everything, I do think its the male that loves best and worst.
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Re: Macho man

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I wonder why - I kinda agreed with Lance's question.

There's a pop-science book called "Red Queen" that discusses the different sexual behaviours between men and women as evolutionary strategies.

I think that all of us understand that there are sexual behavioural differences, but can console ourselves in that both men and women have different innate behavioural strategies where many could be considered bad behaviour.

I was sitting in the back of a car with a girl and a bloke and two blokes in the front seat. A "babe" is standing at the corner. The girl next to me whispered "watch" and all the males heads turned in sequence to look at the "babe." The girls sais "See! it's like clockwork!". This was a bit of a shock because it was like clockwork and it rammed home how obvious male behaviour is.
:D

I try to never forget that first and foremost, we're animals. Highly evolved animals, but the basis didn't magically disappear.


ETA Oh, that reminds me of a joke: One of the two guys walking down a street suddenly says, "The gal behind us must be quite a looker." The other one turns around and says, "Yeah! She is! How did you know?" and the other guy says with a smile, "Just look at the faces of the men in opposite traffic."
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Re: Macho man

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:41 pm

My favourite story from the book Red Queen, was the Chinese Emperor who had to unusual opportunity to father 4,000 children, through his concubines, so he did.

I then tried to work out in my head how many times he had to have sex a week to achieve this. He would have been exhausted.
:D

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Re: Macho man

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:45 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I try to never forget that first and foremost, we're animals. Highly evolved animals, but the basis didn't magically disappear.
I absolutely agree. A good person is one who can hold back on their automatic innate behavior.

I can hold back a lot, but I know I still let my own innate bad behaviour slip out, all the time.
:D

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Re: Macho man

Postby JO 753 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:08 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
This bloke thinks he looks very macho, and, for his time, probably does.
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Re: Macho man

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:14 pm

:lol:
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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:16 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:My favourite story from the book Red Queen, was the Chinese Emperor who had to unusual opportunity to father 4,000 children, through his concubines, so he did.

I then tried to work out in my head how many times he had to have sex a week to achieve this. He would have been exhausted.
:D

Concubines are trained to be helpful bedmates. Something you and I have little familiarity with.
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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:I can hold back a lot, but I know I still let my own innate bad behaviour slip out, all the time. [/color] :D

I hope and do assume that is not true. confirm: you are conflating your imagined/half desired response to the nothing you actually do?

or contra: what for instance do you let slip out? (sic!---what you do that way in private is appropriate foreplay......I assume)
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Re: Macho man

Postby Dimebag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:51 am

Displays of power and dominance can act as deterrents to threats, as well as being a signal to potential mates that the male is genetically superior, based on their physical characteristics being most adaptive to their environment. It makes sense for a female to choose a mate based on what would be the most adaptive traits to possess. As we have progressed in society, not only is it adaptive to be strong and fast, but more so now, you need to be good at working the system and and securing resources, the most crucial of which is money, as well as power and influence over others. For that reason, women will be more likely to want a mate who possesses these traits, more so when the environment is geared more towards economic survival. Of course we still need to know who has these traits, but physical appearance alone isn't enough, it is the way a male adorns himself which signals to the female that he is most suited to this economic environment, which obviously will be displayed in terms of valuable and rare possessions. The ever captivating jewellery men have struggled to attain in order to adorn their women, something which has existed for millennia. Nowadays, status symbols play a large role, the latest most expensive car, a modern, luxurious house, all symbolise a persons power and resources.

This could also explain men's uneasiness towards equality in the workplace, if women can attain as many resources as males, through their own endeavours, what good is a man?

Food for thought.

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Re: Macho man

Postby Dimebag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:52 am

Displays of power and dominance can act as deterrents to threats, as well as being a signal to potential mates that the male is genetically superior, based on their physical characteristics being most adaptive to their environment. It makes sense for a female to choose a mate based on what would be the most adaptive traits to possess. As we have progressed in society, not only is it adaptive to be strong and fast, but more so now, you need to be good at working the system and and securing resources, the most crucial of which is money, as well as power and influence over others. For that reason, women will be more likely to want a mate who possesses these traits, more so when the environment is geared more towards economic survival. Of course we still need to know who has these traits, but physical appearance alone isn't enough, it is the way a male adorns himself which signals to the female that he is most suited to this economic environment, which obviously will be displayed in terms of valuable and rare possessions. The ever captivating jewellery men have struggled to attain in order to adorn their women, something which has existed for millennia. Nowadays, status symbols play a large role, the latest most expensive car, a modern, luxurious house, all symbolise a persons power and resources.

This could also explain men's uneasiness towards equality in the workplace, if women can attain as many resources as males, through their own endeavours, what good is a man?

Food for thought.

Edit: double post please delete
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Re: Macho man

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:01 am

If you're the last one to post, you'll see an X with the other buttons to delete your last post (here not anymore, since I just posted - if I were to delete this post now, yours should pop up again, I think). Some users edit double posts away with an "Double post deleted." left instead. :-D
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Re: Macho man

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:16 am

It is not a case of "what good is a man." Heterosexual women will always want a male partner, just as heterosexual men will always want a female partner. It is more a case of "what is the most desirable man?"

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:07 am

Dime: you took a paragraph x4 longer than the OP to say the same thing. Then you took one sentence to add more meat to our plate. Very disproportionate. Givens don't need repetition. Too much FAT.
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Re: Macho man

Postby Gord » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:28 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:...heterosexual men will always want a female partner....

Some of us don't.
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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:33 am

Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:...heterosexual men will always want a female partner....

Some of us don't.

There's a book.l
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Re: Macho man

Postby Gord » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:...heterosexual men will always want a female partner....

Some of us don't.

There's a book.l

There is?l
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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:46 am

What the l? You are following too close!!!!!
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Re: Macho man

Postby JO 753 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:29 am

Dimebag wrote:...the most crucial of which is money, as well as power and influence over others. For that reason, women will be more likely to want a mate who possesses these traits, more so when the environment is geared more towards economic survival. Of course we still need to know who has these traits, but physical appearance alone isn't enough, it is the way a male adorns himself which signals to the female that he is most suited to this economic environment, which obviously will be displayed in terms of valuable and rare possessions.


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Re: Macho man

Postby Dimebag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Dime: you took a paragraph x4 longer than the OP to say the same thing. Then you took one sentence to add more meat to our plate. Very disproportionate. Givens don't need repetition. Too much FAT.

I do apologise for the repetition, however, I'm not sure I would have added that last sentence had I not run through the first one aloud.

Also, I have been known to not listen/read through a post fully, so it doesn't surprise me that I restated something. :P

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Re: Macho man

Postby Dimebag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:58 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:It is not a case of "what good is a man." Heterosexual women will always want a male partner, just as heterosexual men will always want a female partner. It is more a case of "what is the most desirable man?"

Yes, I would agree with that. A woman's biological urges will ultimately win out most of the time.

Another thing I wonder about the "nice guy thing". I wonder if some women are more fond of "nice guys" because they may be more likely to take on a nurturing role compared to a "manlier " man. I have read of studies which propose that males with less testosterone will be more nurturing fathers to their offspring, maybe this is how they compensate for their lack of dominant physical traits.

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:24 am

Why think of "more nurturing" as a compensation rather than as a superior survival technique?

How "dominant" are any of us today?
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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:26 am

Dimebag wrote: I do apologise for the repetition, however, I'm not sure I would have added that last sentence had I not run through the first one aloud.

Also, I have been known to not listen/read through a post fully, so it doesn't surprise me that I restated something. :P

Heads up: you aren't dominating me, only showing your own lack of fitness.
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Re: Macho man

Postby gorgeous » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:45 pm

women want a nice guy, preferably with a good deal of money and can take charge and be assertive....many 'nice guys' aren't like that....that is why at a younger age women may like a bad boy who is sexy and exciting...when they get older and want a good father for kids they will choose a nice guy....yes men want to be needed...but I was told I am too needy by a guy who told me he loved me so I don't know.....it is common that very successful women can't find a guy to marry them....they really don't need a man as they can take care of themselves...on shows those women talk about their success and how many degrees they have.----traits men have never been interested in....that would be why they can't get a man to marry them...men still want to be no. 1 and have dinner waiting when they get home....I like a nice,sweet guy but many are not assertive enough....they are more like boys than men...
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Re: Macho man

Postby Poodle » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:31 pm

Jesus wept!

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:25 pm

Jesus wept!
=========maybe, but NOT because he was NOT macho and NOT a good provider.....but I think this thread is about heterosexuals males with females, so he's irrelevant every way you look at it. So much for taking in the human experience.

Ha, ha..........is there ANYTHING that makes any sense about Abrahamic religions?...............other than they are a pox on humankind??????
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Re: Macho man

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:My favourite story from the book Red Queen, was the Chinese Emperor who had to unusual opportunity to father 4,000 children, through his concubines, so he did.

I then tried to work out in my head how many times he had to have sex a week to achieve this. He would have been exhausted.
:D


What are your assumptions? The minimum would be once a day for 12 years or so. How long was he an emperor? It's his procurers who would be exhausted. Common practice for emperors of Chinese dynasties was to ask the peasant's comely daughter, and, if she said no, kidnap her.
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Re: Macho man

Postby Dimebag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why think of "more nurturing" as a compensation rather than as a superior survival technique?

How "dominant" are any of us today?

Fair point, nurturing father is just another adaptive trait. I was referring to the more generic physical traits as being superior genetically because initially that was an important trait to have in order to continue to have children who would physically dominate and get the best female child rearers. Of course I do admit to there being more to survival than sheer physical strength and form. Intelligence, resourcefulness, social skills etc were also very important to survival due to the unpredictable nature of life and the fastballs it throws, and having others around who would be willing and able to help during sticky situations is an obvious advantage

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Re: Macho man

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:50 pm

To Oleg

The minimum would be a lot more than 12 years. New brides who are trying to get pregnant take more than two months on average, and you can bet they are trying every day.

The explanation for the 4000 children is simply that the book is fiction.

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:33 pm

Dimebag wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why think of "more nurturing" as a compensation rather than as a superior survival technique?

How "dominant" are any of us today?

Fair point, nurturing father is just another adaptive trait. I was referring to the more generic physical traits as being superior genetically because initially that was an important trait to have in order to continue to have children who would physically dominate and get the best female child rearers. Of course I do admit to there being more to survival than sheer physical strength and form. Intelligence, resourcefulness, social skills etc were also very important to survival due to the unpredictable nature of life and the fastballs it throws, and having others around who would be willing and able to help during sticky situations is an obvious advantage

Was thinking and talking out of both sides of one's mouth ever a superior adaptive skill?
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Re: Macho man

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:46 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The explanation for the 4000 children is simply that the book is fiction.
It's a book on biology and not a fictional book.
Red queen.jpg



It's two women a day
"The Tang Dynasty emperors of China kept careful records of dates of menstruation and conception in the harem so as to be sure to copulate only with the most fertile concubines: Chinese emperors were also taught to conserve their semen so as to keep up their quota of two women a day, and some even complained of their onerous sexual duties. "
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Re: Macho man

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:10 am

Maybe the whole book was not fiction, but the 4,000 children from one father definitely was.

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Re: Macho man

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:37 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Maybe the whole book was not fiction, but the 4,000 children from one father definitely was.

.........but............but..............but.......... for a man of data: THE ONLY DATA you have is just above and specifically addresses how it was done.

Your Alt Fact basis is what?
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Re: Macho man

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:38 am

Bobbo

It is simple biology. If that emperor was living today, and used the most advanced medical science to identify fertile women, he would still fail to impregnate those women most of the time. In the bad old days, he would fail a great deal more often. It is simply not possible to know exactly when a woman is going to be made pregnant.

Let me add a comment about history. Henry Ford famously said "History is bunk." He had a point.

Any skeptic should be aware of another simple principle. People tell lies.

Any professional historian is well, possibly painfully, aware of that fact, and realises that many of the claims made over time are simply lies. When a claim is made of one man fathering 4,000 children, then my skepticism kicks in, and I consider that this is probably one of those lies. Possibly to glorify the supposed vigor of that emperor. Weigh that claim against what we know of human biology and human fertility.


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