Stupid mutants.

What you think about how you think.
Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26774
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:25 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: I don't understand why people do it on the Internet. This type of communication relies solely on the written word; we have no facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice with which to interpret meaning. Proper use of the language is even more important than it is in casual face-to-face conversation, IMO.


That makes sense. I guess there are a couple reasons people don't use proper grammar and spelling on the internet and on phones texts (apart from limited character space). Firstly, I imagine the only times people had to write formal sentences, were in school and applying for jobs, or communicating with people who they needed to impress, as being from an educated person. They simply don't bother when there is no need.

Secondly, I think there is a bit of "jargon makes me look younger" going on.
:lol:

LUV UR WORK. (cough cough splutter splutter) :D

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:27 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Lance, being uneducated on a subject is perfectly fine.
Being uneducatable is not.

Check the literature. I'm right, you are wrong.


Sadly for you, EM, and unlike you, I HAVE studied basic immunology.
You used the big word, beta lymphocyte, which shows you must have done a miniscule Google search. But I note you did not offer a reference. The reason you did not is obvious. Because no reputable reference will support your nonsense.

Beta lymphocytes respond to the presence of novel pathogens by analysing the protein antigen, on the surface of the pathogen, and creating from new, an antibody which works on that antigen by a lock and key mechanism. The antibodies link to two antigen molecules. With the billions of antibodies at work, that clumps the pathogens together, sometimes breaking their cell membranes, but also presenting the clump to a leucocyte for destruction.

The point is that a new antibody is manufactured for a new pathogen. There are potentially E200 different potential proteins, and thus an enormous number of possible antigens for the immune system to deal with. It is physically impossible for the immune system to have antibodies for each and every possible antigen, since the possible number of different antigens is greater than the number of atoms in our universe. Thus it is essential for the immune system to be able to analyse antigens and manufacture novel antibodies at need.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:38 am

I refer you to my previous post.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:44 am

JO 753 wrote:You are mistaken, EM. Part uv the reaction to metalz iz an immune respons. Sum peeps are more sensativ than otherz and will hav an alerjic reaction with metal contacting their skin.

There are very few metalz that are 100% nonreactiv - gold, platinum and a few uv the other platinum group metalz. Titanium iz close, but there are still peepl who cant tolerate it. Metal Hypersensativity

It's not necessarily an immune response. A reaction to metal is considered to be a form of contact dermatitis. There are two types of contact dermatitis: irritant and allergic. Irritant Contact Dermatitis (ICD) accounts for 80% of cases. While there is an inflammatory reaction, the immune system is not involved.

Allergic Contact Dermatitis (ACD) has two phases: sensitization to an antigen, and reaction after re-exposure. A poison ivy rash is an example of allergic contact dermatitis.
In the sensitization phase, allergens are captured by Langerhans cells (dendritic epidermal cells), which migrate to regional lymph nodes where they process and present the antigen to T cells. The process may be brief (6 to 10 days for strong sensitizers such as poison ivy) or prolonged (years for weak sensitizers such as sunscreens, fragrances, and glucocorticoids). Sensitized T cells then migrate back to the epidermis and activate on any reexposure to the allergen, releasing cytokines, recruiting inflammatory cells, and leading to the characteristic symptoms and signs of ACD. LINK

I react to nickel, but not everywhere. I can wear bracelets, rings, and earrings without a problem. But a necklace that contains even trace amounts of nickel will cause a painful, itchy, blistering rash where the necklace has touched the back of my neck. I'm guessing that my reaction is ICD, that it's some combination of the nickel with something else I haven't been able to identify. If it were ACD, I'd have that reaction everywhere, because it would be a true allergy.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Secondly, I think there is a bit of "jargon makes me look younger" going on. [/color] :lol:

LUV UR WORK. (cough cough splutter splutter) :D

:lol: Your post is totally on fleek. ;) I'm at the point where, when I see a teenager post, I have to look up half the words they're using. However, I don't feel too bad about that, since my 27-year-old daughter has to do that too. She's not a fan of faddish slang any more than I am. Other than the habit we both have of calling everyone "dude" all the time, we even speak correctly to each other.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:02 am

I didn't really want to have to do this, but:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26860/

Lance, you might have studied immunology, but you haven't understood it.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12404
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:23 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:I react to nickel, but not everywhere. I can wear bracelets, rings, and earrings without a problem. But a necklace that contains even trace amounts of nickel will cause a painful, itchy, blistering rash where the necklace has touched the back of my neck. I'm guessing that my reaction is ICD, that it's some combination of the nickel with something else I haven't been able to identify.


Interesting stuff. Remindz me uv the awesum level uv complexity uv life.

I woudnt hav gessed nickel wuz commonly an irritant sins its an essential ingredient uv 316 stainless steel.

Lucky I am not very sensitiv to metalz, otherwize I woud not hav been able to do most uv the work I'v dun. It woud be like a vampire in a garlic factory! A vampire in a factory that makes crossez out uv compressed garlic, dryz them with ultraviolet lite and then silver plates them!
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:02 am

ElectricMonk wrote:I didn't really want to have to do this, but:y

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26860/

Lance, you might have studied immunology, but you haven't understood it.



Read your reference again. It states very clearly that the immune system has the flexibility to create a wide range of antibodies in response to need. When there are E200 possible antigens (meaning the digit 1 followed by 200 zeroes, a number large enough to allow for all the atoms in a decillion times a decillion times a decillion times a decillion times a decillion universes), the human genome CANNOT contain enough antibodies to cope with them all. Duh. Duh... and duh again.

In spite of your inability to grasp the bleeding obvious, the human immune system creates antibodies 'on order ' to deal with novel pathogens.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:37 am

Lance, reading is hard, isn't it?

The reference very clearly states that the correct b-lymphocytes are formed long before they ever get in contact with their corresponding antigen. Once they do, the undergo some degree of optimization (maturation) to improve recognition and to prime them for mass-production in case of future encounter with the antigen. But the principle is that the body has the antibody BEFORE it sees the antigen.
If this was not the case, immunities could never be passed onto the next generation.

And the other FACT is that the human body doesn't cope with all antigens.

Please don't pass up this opportunity to learn something about the subject you think you know so well...
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:53 am

EM

Reading is hard when a person is blitheringly stupid.

A smarter person would see the following.
The pre immune antibody repertoire cross reacts with antigenic determinants to make a more formidable repertoire. This means, foolish one, that the initial lot of antibodies is modified by contact with antigens to make more antibodies.

Then it talks of affinity maturation to increase the antibody arsenal.

In other words, the immune system begins with a limited range of antibodies, but modifies what it has got to make a wider range to deal with novel Infections. Basically what I told you at the start.

As I told you, oh Vast Ocean of Ignorance, I have actually studied immunology, albeit at a basic level. You, on the other hand, reveal your ignorance at every step.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:04 am

Lance, get in touch with some teacher from your "basic" studies and let them explain it to you.
Don't use your logic, because it is flawed in this case. The textbook says one thing, but you have to push your idea anyways.



PS:
As usual, I am amazed that you think you know more about the subject than me, given that you have no clue what I studied to which level and what I currently work on.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:20 am

EM

I am sure there is something you know a lot more about than me. But it is clearly not immunology, since you reveal substantial ignorance on that topic. Get real, guy. Admit you are not educated on that subject. It is not an insult to realise that we cannot all be knowledgeable about everything. I had a genuinely nice meeting today, with an old friend. He is an engineer (retired), and he teaches me a lot. I know more about biology and medicine than he does, and he knows more about a range of engineering subjects than I do. I enjoy learning from him.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:38 am

I'm perfectly real, and I have obviously studied the subject in more depth than you.
But that is entirely beside the point if you can't understand a textbook because you are too enamored by your own logic.

Explain to me this: if novel antibodies are created by exposure to antigens, how come parents can transfer their immunities to their children?
After all, memory B-cells aren't anywhere near the hereditary cell lines.
Or to put it another way: why were almost all Native Americans unable to build up a resistance against Old-World diseases if lymphocytes can learn from any antigen?


For my part, I've tried to explain it to you, even got textbook proof.
If you refuse to do some work to verify your preconceptions via experts you will always be left with a flawed understanding of the subject. Wouldn't be the first time for you.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Dimebag
Regular Poster
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Dimebag » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:27 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:I'v alwayz atributed my own mental faults to leded gasoline wen I wuz a kid, but there iz a habit factor - my brother wuz alwayz the 'memory guy' so I didnt need to remember stuff myself. Then I'd read books and watch moviez I liked a bunch uv timez, so forgetting became an advantaj.

There's definitely a habit factor. I used to have a great memory for numbers. Now I don't need it, because my phone "remembers" them for me. The only ones I have memorized are immediate family's and old, out-of-service numbers from my childhood.

It makes me wonder if studies have been done on the Internet's effects on human memory. I mean, with all that knowledge available nearly instantly, are our memories becoming worse over time?

This reminds me of a podcast by Sam Harris where he is discussing different technologies and how they effect us. Some tech requires that we create a working model of it within our brains, and therefore when it is taken away, we still have that model, and therefore aren't at a loss when it is removed. They used an abacus as an example. Other tech replaces our mental faculties, we no longer need a certain abIlity, such as addition, multiplication, etc. when using a calculator. When taken away, our dependence on the device leaves the means to complete a task outside ourselves.

In a way, our dependence on these second kinds of technology are leaving us both less mentally able, and also would leave us disadvantaged if it were taken away.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:41 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:There's definitely a habit factor. I used to have a great memory for numbers. Now I don't need it, because my phone "remembers" them for me. The only ones I have memorized are immediate family's and old, out-of-service numbers from my childhood.

It makes me wonder if studies have been done on the Internet's effects on human memory. I mean, with all that knowledge available nearly instantly, are our memories becoming worse over time?

This reminds me of a podcast by Sam Harris where he is discussing different technologies and how they effect us. Some tech requires that we create a working model of it within our brains, and therefore when it is taken away, we still have that model, and therefore aren't at a loss when it is removed. They used an abacus as an example. Other tech replaces our mental faculties, we no longer need a certain abIlity, such as addition, multiplication, etc. when using a calculator. When taken away, our dependence on the device leaves the means to complete a task outside ourselves.

In a way, our dependence on these second kinds of technology are leaving us both less mentally able, and also would leave us disadvantaged if it were taken away.

That explains why the younger generations, when working cash registers, can't make change without relying on the register to tell them what amount to give. They've never had to. I stopped for coffees one day with my daughter, and our total came to something like $7.16. I gave the cashier $12.16. She tried to give back the two dollar bills, saying I gave her too much money. I smiled and said, "Just punch $12.16 into the register and watch the magic." Her jaw dropped when the register told her to give me $5.00 back in change, like I'd graduated from Hogwarts. Amusing, but depressing at the same time.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Image
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:55 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I react to nickel, but not everywhere. I can wear bracelets, rings, and earrings without a problem. But a necklace that contains even trace amounts of nickel will cause a painful, itchy, blistering rash where the necklace has touched the back of my neck. I'm guessing that my reaction is ICD, that it's some combination of the nickel with something else I haven't been able to identify.


Interesting stuff. Remindz me uv the awesum level uv complexity uv life.

I woudnt hav gessed nickel wuz commonly an irritant sins its an essential ingredient uv 316 stainless steel.

Lucky I am not very sensitiv to metalz, otherwize I woud not hav been able to do most uv the work I'v dun. It woud be like a vampire in a garlic factory! A vampire in a factory that makes crossez out uv compressed garlic, dryz them with ultraviolet lite and then silver plates them!

I'm thankful the reaction is limited! My kitchen sink is stainless steel, as is my flatware and most of my pots and pans. Imagine putting a forkful of fettucine alfredo in your mouth and having a reaction to the fork? That would suck.

OTOH, I have an anaphylactic reaction to penicillin and cephalosporin antibiotics, so guess what else I can't eat? Blue cheese.
Blue cheese is a general classification of cheeses that have had cultures of the mold Penicillium added so that the final product is spotted or veined throughout with blue, or blue-grey mold and carries a distinct smell, either from that or various specially cultivated bacteria.
Specifically, cheeses made using penicillium roqueforti cause an immediate, unpleasant reaction. Thankfully, it's not anaphylactic. My stomach rejects the cheese before that happens, to put it mildly. That's generally my first clue that I'm sensitive or allergic to something. Fortunately, I've had no such reactions to penicillium camemberti! That would Brie horrible. :wgrin:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10528
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:47 pm

Is that such a thing as non-contact dermatitis? I have a co-worker who is a pain in the ass, even though there is no direct physical contact.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:34 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:Is that such a thing as non-contact dermatitis? I have a co-worker who is a pain in the ass, even though there is no direct physical contact.

Intellectual allergies? I imagine most of us here suffer from them...lol.

I have a friend (more of an acquaintance) who's a kind and generous person, but who's a bit limited to the point that I wonder how she manages. Talking to her gives me a headache. One evening, she admitted she didn't understand the concept of miles per hour, so I undertook to explain it to her. Despite several attempts which included coming at the concept from different directions and making a number of drawings, I was unable to help her.

She couldn't figure out even the simplest problem: You're traveling to a destination that's 60 miles away, and you're driving at 60 miles per hour. How long will it take you to get there? In her mind, there was no connection between the distance, the time, and the speed of travel, and I couldn't make her see one. After 20 minutes, my head was throbbing. I have no idea how she graduated high school, and it's a sad commentary on the public education system in the US that she did.

Her blind spot is even more bizarre in New England, because we habitually measure travel distance using time.
"How far away is it?"
"About a half hour."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:18 pm

EM

I give up.
.
Wallow in your ignorance all you like.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:45 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:....OTOH, I have an anaphylactic reaction to penicillin and cephalosporin antibiotics, so guess what else I can't eat? Blue cheese.
Blue cheese is a general classification of cheeses that have had cultures of the mold Penicillium added so that the final product is spotted or veined throughout with blue, or blue-grey mold and carries a distinct smell, either from that or various specially cultivated bacteria.
Specifically, cheeses made using penicillium roqueforti cause an immediate, unpleasant reaction. Thankfully, it's not anaphylactic. My stomach rejects the cheese before that happens, to put it mildly. That's generally my first clue that I'm sensitive or allergic to something. Fortunately, I've had no such reactions to penicillium camemberti! That would Brie horrible. :wgrin:


As a cook and homebound scientist, hopefully you have an answer: Several months ago I bought some blue cheese to add to my home made yogurt to make a yogurt based blue cheese. My brain got stuck on regular plain yogurt and the blue cheese stayed sealed in its original container.

Months ago the blue cheese just has a few blue veins to it and I assume fairly mild as I remember from the last time I ate it. NOW==the "cheese" is more blue than white. I have no reaction to penicillin and pursuant to my hobby of living cheap and not wanting to throw food away due to my own mismanagement I have eaten more moldy bread than I probably should....one day it might not be penicillin that is growing there????

So........on this minimal information......obviously safe to eat the BLUE cheese and the issue will only be its taste....... or is a mouthful of penicillin mold OBVIOUSLY not something to do?

((((Ha, ha......its a marvel how setting some whackadoodle idea into WRITING clears the mind? I'm thinking a mouthful of penicillin can't taste good...and can't be good for you either. Maybe emulsify it and main line an artery with my chicken baster...but not for food. What I'll do, I think, is take a quarter section of the cheese and blend it with my yogurt for the original plan of Yogurt Blue Cheese.))

Nikki: any thoughts?.............and remember to always be kind.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12404
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:47 pm

EM & Lance.

From reading your links I think both uv you arent understanding sumthing about how immunity works (me also). The part you do understand iz not the part the other duz, but you both think your part iz the whole thing.

All I know iz wut Homer Simpson taught me: "Everybodyz stupid but me!"
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:04 pm

No

Appreciate your concern. But I have no problem understanding basic immunology. EM has shown himself to be utterly ignorant, but has got a bee in his bonnet about antibodies, believing that all possible needed antibodies already exist. This is physically impossible, since the number of such anti bodies would exceed the number of atoms in the universe. But how do you reach someone who is utterly ignorant, but refuses to admit it ?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:13 pm

Lance, you should be able to answer my questions if your knowledge is superior to mine.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:31 pm

Jo, what we are talking about is only part of the immune system, not the whole thing. But it is a critical aspect and shows whether you understand genetics or not.
I have literally linked the friggin textbook that Lance should have learned from which shows that I'm right and Lance is wrong.
And he refuses to comment on it or answer my example questions.

Lance is stuck in a Lamarckian idea of evolution where organisms can acquire traits in their lives and pass them on to the next generation (in this case immunities). But this shows a complete lack of understanding how evolution, including the evolution of the immune system, works.

please read the textbook link yourself, Jo, if you think that we are both wrong.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:43 pm

EM

I have answered your questions, and the reference you posted agrees with my position, even though you appear to be unable to understand the way it is worded. I feel like I am whacking my head against a brick wall with this argument.

The human body DOES NOT contain all the antibodies it needs to deal with all diseases. When a new pathogen enters the body, the antibodies are modified to take care of it. This takes time, which is why a new disease can rapidly cause great harm ( or even kill), and healing takes longer. But afterwards, those modified antibodies confer resistance. A pregnant woman passes antibodies to its child via the placenta. Nothing too complex there. There are even antibodies in mothers milk.

If your view was correct, EM, there would be no infectious illness, since the antibodies to fight it would already exist.

Now for finagle sake, read your textbook and wake up to reality!

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:52 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:A pregnant woman passes antibodies to its child via the placenta.

A Non-Lamarkian event, also non DNA but still evolutionary.

................. blows "my" mind.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:00 pm

Bobbo

There is nothing Lamarckian about any of this. Our bodies have evolved, by natural selection, mechanisms by which antibodies can be modified to deal with novel illnesses.

When I was 23 years old, I was vaccinated against smallpox. Before then, I had no smallpox antibodies. After, I had heaps of them. My body had created the new antibodies to meet a perceived threat. EM would have you believe those antibodies against smallpox were in my body before vaccination. They were not. If EM was correct, I would not need to have the vaccination. But before then, I had antibodies against the measles virus, because I had been sick with measles (not a happy event. Thank finagle that modern people can get vaccinated against measles.)

Each illness, or vaccine, results in new antibodies.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:05 pm

Thats what I said.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:06 pm

Thank you, Bobbo.

Now please tell EM.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:17 pm

I did. I told both of you. You had to be told twice. Let's see what EM comes up with.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As a cook and homebound scientist, hopefully you have an answer: Several months ago I bought some blue cheese to add to my home made yogurt to make a yogurt based blue cheese. My brain got stuck on regular plain yogurt and the blue cheese stayed sealed in its original container.

Months ago the blue cheese just has a few blue veins to it and I assume fairly mild as I remember from the last time I ate it. NOW==the "cheese" is more blue than white. I have no reaction to penicillin and pursuant to my hobby of living cheap and not wanting to throw food away due to my own mismanagement I have eaten more moldy bread than I probably should....one day it might not be penicillin that is growing there????

So........on this minimal information......obviously safe to eat the BLUE cheese and the issue will only be its taste....... or is a mouthful of penicillin mold OBVIOUSLY not something to do?

((((Ha, ha......its a marvel how setting some whackadoodle idea into WRITING clears the mind? I'm thinking a mouthful of penicillin can't taste good...and can't be good for you either. Maybe emulsify it and main line an artery with my chicken baster...but not for food. What I'll do, I think, is take a quarter section of the cheese and blend it with my yogurt for the original plan of Yogurt Blue Cheese.))

Nikki: any thoughts?.............and remember to always be kind.

TBH, without research, I have no idea. I know that if there's mold on hard cheeses, you can just slice the moldy parts off and have at it, and I've done so with no adverse reaction. But blue cheese isn't a hard cheese, so I checked and found this.
Shelf life of blue cheese
If you will keep blue cheese on the kitchen counter, it will last only a few days. If you’ll store it properly, i.e. keep it wrapped in the fridge, it can be stored there for about 3 to 4 weeks. If you will decide to freeze blue cheese, it can technically be frozen forever, but for best quality, it shouldn’t be frozen for longer than about half a year. One important thing about freezing blue cheese – it becomes crumbly and loses some of its taste after thawing, so it will be best if you’ll use thawed blue cheese only in cooked dishes (like casseroles, stews, etc.).

How to tell if blue cheese is bad
This is probably the most important question. First of all, if there’s mold that wasn’t there when you’ve opened the package, chances are the product is spoiled and should be discarded. Another thing is the color of the creamy part of the cheese – if it’s changed (it’s pinkish, greenish or maybe brownish), the cheese is bad. The smell of the cheese is a good indicator of spoilage too. If it’s not natural blue cheese smell, but rather is somewhat similar to ammonia’s smell, it’s bad.
I generally keep 7-8 types of cheese in my fridge at all times, and have found that wrapping them in either parchment or waxed paper first, then plastic wrap is the best method. It keeps the moisture content contained so the cheese remains dry-ish on the outside, and allows just enough air to prevent the moist atmosphere from encouraging mold.

(Yes, I know that's a lot of cheese, and I admit I have a problem. It could be worse; I could be addicted to sugar. Or heroin. Currently, I have Havarti, Fontina, Parmigiano Reggiano, Alehouse Cheddar, Farmhouse Reserve Cheddar, Merlot-Cured Cheddar, Smoked Gouda, and Smoked Gruyère. I'm fairly certain I was a cartoon mouse in my previous life. :wgrin: )
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:25 pm

Well, you embarrass me Nikki. I google "all the time" and didn't think to Google the blue cheese......even when 3 days ago I googled (kiwi fruit very soft safe eat).

Looking at the package, its just blue. In a few days i'll make my yogurt, open the blue cheese and if it smells ok....ill use 25% of it to inoculate the yogurt. Last time.... it was too mild. Making it toxic..... should work.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:28 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The general rule among mammals is that the bigger ones live longer. The bowhead whale has the record at 200 years. Elephants live a long time. But humans are escaping this rule. We should live no longer than 30 odd years, based on our size. Evolution, though, has worked a "not age " deal for humans.

Medical and technological innovation have worked that deal. We would have much shorter lifespans if it weren't for prenatal care, obstetrical advancements, vaccines, diagnostic medicine, drugs, nutrition, pollution control, microbiology, personal hygiene, germ control in medicine, climate control, water and sewage treatment, and a million other things.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12404
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:31 am

Lance, EM , bobbo and everybody I'm sure we are all wondering the same thing...

Wen are you going to let them out Nikki? Pleez, let them out! Its horribly hot and humid in there and they can only last so long. The horror! The horror!
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:41 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Yep,This ability is not "used up" during ageing; rather the body has a programmed-in phase-out of immuno-responses, cell repair mechanisms and regeneration of cells. This is purely adaptive, as it is determined by how susceptible people are to various age-related diseases: some develop them early, others later, some never: typical for genetically determined factors.
I developed osteoarthritis in my 40s. However, I don't have a grey hair on my head, and only microscopic wrinkles, mostly smile lines. Both my maternal grandparents died (at 93 and 90) with mostly dark brown hair, hardly any grey.

I may not feel mahvelous, but, dahling, I loook mahvelous. :lol:
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:59 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The general rule among mammals is that the bigger ones live longer. The bowhead whale has the record at 200 years. Elephants live a long time. But humans are escaping this rule. We should live no longer than 30 odd years, based on our size. Evolution, though, has worked a "not age " deal for humans.

Medical and technological innovation have worked that deal. We would have much shorter lifespans if it weren't for prenatal care, obstetrical advancements, vaccines, diagnostic medicine, drugs, nutrition, pollution control, microbiology, personal hygiene, germ control in medicine, climate control, water and sewage treatment, and a million other things.


Which is all true. But the maximum age has not changed. Human life span, in the absence of violence, disease etc., is around 80 years, plus or minus a big margin depending on genetics. Based on size, our maximum age should be around 30 years, and it is not.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11060
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:14 am

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/208/9/1717

Long review here of ageing correlations. I got bored before I found anything on topic.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10226
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:26 am

Nevertheless, it is an interesting reference, Bobbo. Thanks for posting.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:00 am

JO 753 wrote:Lance, EM , bobbo and everybody I'm sure we are all wondering the same thing...

Wen are you going to let them out Nikki? Pleez, let them out! Its horribly hot and humid in there and they can only last so long. The horror! The horror!
Er...I'm completely confused. Let who out? I plead lack of sleep for my failure to be quick on the uptake.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


Return to “Brain, Mind, & Consciousness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest