A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

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Confidencia
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:09 am

gorgeous wrote:seth------"Instead, consciousness formed matter. As I have said before, each atom and molecule has its own consciousness. Consciousness and matter and energy are one, but consciousness initiates the transformation of energy into matter. In those terms, the “beginning” of your universe was a triumph in the expansion of consciousness, as it learned to translate itself into physical form. The universe emerged into actuality in the same way, but to a different degree, that any idea emerges from what you think of as subjectivity into physical expression.

The consciousness of each reader of this book existed before the universe was formed (in your terms) but that consciousness was unmanifest. Your closest approximation — and it is an approximation only — of the state of being that existed before the universe was formed is the dream state. In that state before the beginning, your consciousness existed free of space and time, aware of immense probabilities. This is extremely difficult to verbalize, yet it is very important that such an attempt be made. Your consciousness is part of an infinitely original creative process."


That which you are referring to is not the consciousness, it is the source of consciousness. Consciousness is the time, the space and the universe, it cannot be in an unmanifested state; it either is or it isn't. It is stirred into being by the source (which is what you are in substance and in essence). So in this respect consciousness has a beginning and an end, YOU DO NOT.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby gorgeous » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:52 am

who says it can't be unmanifested?
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:16 pm

gorgeous wrote:who says it can't be unmanifested?


You. When you are what you are there is no other.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:57 pm

"Closer to Truth" had a good segment yesterday on the Role of Language in forming Consciousness ... which led to analysis of perception and cognition.

Evidently.....there is a well grounded language about these things and much agreement.
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"Closer to Truth" had a good segment yesterday on the Role of Language in forming Consciousness ... which led to analysis of perception and cognition.

Evidently.....there is a well grounded language about these things and much agreemen.


You couldn't be further from the truth. Consciousness is a form of awareness. In consciousness all forms are contained so it's actually the other way round, consciousness forms language.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:22 am

Not if you haven't learned it it can't.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:43 pm

Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:Strictly speaking yes. Can you verify any self in your sleep?


Well, it took a few posts but thanks for answering my question. You claim knowledge such as reality being unreal, terms not existing, and inferring the limits of sleep as knowledge. This is not solipsism.


Sleep is only a lapse in memory and the idea of a self is contained in a memory. In reality nothing can be known because there is nobody to know it and no-thing to know, it is to this end that all knowledge of what is becomes a form of ignorance.


If I were a memory less vegetable and I were approached by two different people. One person approaches with a warming embrace and the other approaches with a malicious embrace and I'm sitting there having no memory to intelligently identify either in my situation. One hurts, the other harms, and I'm oblivious to this knowledge because I lack memory.

How can you be sure you haven't mistakenly empowered the role memory plays in this equation of self? Perhaps you've misinterpreted the wrong thing because what it means to in fact have no memory is outside your own experience. How can you be certain of what you say?
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:50 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Not if you haven't learned it it can't.


The learning is the forming.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:42 pm

digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:Strictly speaking yes. Can you verify any self in your sleep?


Well, it took a few posts but thanks for answering my question. You claim knowledge such as reality being unreal, terms not existing, and inferring the limits of sleep as knowledge. This is not solipsism.


Sleep is only a lapse in memory and the idea of a self is contained in a memory. In reality nothing can be known because there is nobody to know it and no-thing to know, it is to this end that all knowledge of what is becomes a form of ignorance.


If I were a memory less vegetable and I were approached by two different people. One person approaches with a warming embrace and the other approaches with a malicious embrace and I'm sitting there having no memory to intelligently identify either in my situation. One hurts, the other harms, and I'm oblivious to this knowledge because I lack memory.

How can you be sure you haven't mistakenly empowered the role memory plays in this equation of self? Perhaps you've misinterpreted the wrong thing because what it means to in fact have no memory is outside your own experience. How can you be certain of what you say?


Exactly so. What is real can be experienced yet it is not an experience. Since I am not a concept, I cannot conceive of myself yet I can know myself by being myself. Being something and knowing something in particular are attributes of memory, being and knowing in themselves are not. So unless I am, what can there be? All is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:52 pm

Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:Strictly speaking yes. Can you verify any self in your sleep?


Well, it took a few posts but thanks for answering my question. You claim knowledge such as reality being unreal, terms not existing, and inferring the limits of sleep as knowledge. This is not solipsism.


Sleep is only a lapse in memory and the idea of a self is contained in a memory. In reality nothing can be known because there is nobody to know it and no-thing to know, it is to this end that all knowledge of what is becomes a form of ignorance.


If I were a memory less vegetable and I were approached by two different people. One person approaches with a warming embrace and the other approaches with a malicious embrace and I'm sitting there having no memory to intelligently identify either in my situation. One hurts, the other harms, and I'm oblivious to this knowledge because I lack memory.

How can you be sure you haven't mistakenly empowered the role memory plays in this equation of self? Perhaps you've misinterpreted the wrong thing because what it means to in fact have no memory is outside your own experience. How can you be certain of what you say?


Exactly so. What is real can be experienced yet it is not an experience. Since I am not a concept, I cannot conceive of myself yet I can know myself by being myself. Being something and knowing something in particular are attributes of memory, being and knowing in themselves are not. So unless I am, what can there be? All is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me.


Wow. I know what you mean. Except, that last sentence is distracting because it implies something more. Either because there is a lack of communication or you believe something further than what you originally set out to say. I assume it's just lack of communication because I also assume that if you know yourself and you are approached by another person you'd then at least have the foundation to know there stands a self entirely independent of your own. And you'd not dismiss it as the unknown, or an illusion or, more specifically, "nothing outside of me".
  God is an idea.  

"For now, I am going to err on the side of freedom of speech..." -Pyrrho
"Every instance that has always existed is a piece of evidence that God is not needed." -yrreg
"I am not a concept..." -Confidencia

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:50 am

digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:Strictly speaking yes. Can you verify any self in your sleep?


Well, it took a few posts but thanks for answering my question. You claim knowledge such as reality being unreal, terms not existing, and inferring the limits of sleep as knowledge. This is not solipsism.


Sleep is only a lapse in memory and the idea of a self is contained in a memory. In reality nothing can be known because there is nobody to know it and no-thing to know, it is to this end that all knowledge of what is becomes a form of ignorance.


If I were a memory less vegetable and I were approached by two different people. One person approaches with a warming embrace and the other approaches with a malicious embrace and I'm sitting there having no memory to intelligently identify either in my situation. One hurts, the other harms, and I'm oblivious to this knowledge because I lack memory.

How can you be sure you haven't mistakenly empowered the role memory plays in this equation of self? Perhaps you've misinterpreted the wrong thing because what it means to in fact have no memory is outside your own experience. How can you be certain of what you say?


Exactly so. What is real can be experienced yet it is not an experience. Since I am not a concept, I cannot conceive of myself yet I can know myself by being myself. Being something and knowing something in particular are attributes of memory, being and knowing in themselves are not. So unless I am, what can there be? All is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me.


Wow. I know what you mean. Except, that last sentence is distracting because it implies something more. Either because there is a lack of communication or you believe something further than what you originally set out to say. I assume it's just lack of communication because I also assume that if you know yourself and you are approached by another person you'd then at least have the foundation to know there stands a self entirely independent of your own. And you'd not dismiss it as the unknown, or an illusion or, more specifically, "nothing outside of me".


It is not the lack of communication but more of a misunderstanding. First and foremost the person you have identified yourself with is an illusion, it is a figment of your imagination, a rendition of brain consciousness. If I were to stand in front of you it is not the person I see but rather a reflection of myself. You are as I am; I am what you are. We are different in appearance but we are not separate. Further more, when I say I know myself as I am it does not imply the total. I can only have full knowledge of what I am not which is obviously all that can be known. There can be no end to that unknown quantity of myself.

In this respect there is no self independent of myself. There is only one self and it is all inclusive of the one consciousness. Whatever I see is an aspect of this consciousness, an unknown quantity of myself. Yet that part of me is not estranged from the totality of what I am in essence and in substance; hence the reason why I say all is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me. All is seen in my consciousness and nowhere else.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:27 am

Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:Wow. I know what you mean. Except, that last sentence is distracting because it implies something more. Either because there is a lack of communication or you believe something further than what you originally set out to say. I assume it's just lack of communication because I also assume that if you know yourself and you are approached by another person you'd then at least have the foundation to know there stands a self entirely independent of your own. And you'd not dismiss it as the unknown, or an illusion or, more specifically, "nothing outside of me".


It is not the lack of communication but more of a misunderstanding. First and foremost the person you have identified yourself with is an illusion, it is a figment of your imagination, a rendition of brain consciousness. If I were to stand in front of you it is not the person I see but rather a reflection of myself. You are as I am; I am what you are. We are different in appearance but we are not separate. Further more, when I say I know myself as I am it does not imply the total. I can only have full knowledge of what I am not which is obviously all that can be known. There can be no end to that unknown quantity of myself.

In this respect there is no self independent of myself. There is only one self and it is all inclusive of the one consciousness. Whatever I see is an aspect of this consciousness, an unknown quantity of myself. Yet that part of me is not estranged from the totality of what I am in essence and in substance; hence the reason why I say all is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me. All is seen in my consciousness and nowhere else.


Well said.

I see what you are saying, but to say that I'm your reflection or that you are mine is something I can't determine about you. Are we inseparable in essence? Possibly, but that is outside my experience.

What I'm able to see is that we are inseparable in body. That the reason I know through you by what is known by you is precisely because our make-up shares the same soil for experience. You are a body. I am a body. Your body produces feeling, thought, anxiety, intensity and relaxation from the same building blocks mine does and so our experiences are indistinguishable from one another. But if I were to remove my body from this experience I'd at best only be implying we were inseparable in essence simply because removing my body is not an experience I have.
  God is an idea.  

"For now, I am going to err on the side of freedom of speech..." -Pyrrho
"Every instance that has always existed is a piece of evidence that God is not needed." -yrreg
"I am not a concept..." -Confidencia

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:46 am

digress wrote:
Confidencia wrote:
digress wrote:Wow. I know what you mean. Except, that last sentence is distracting because it implies something more. Either because there is a lack of communication or you believe something further than what you originally set out to say. I assume it's just lack of communication because I also assume that if you know yourself and you are approached by another person you'd then at least have the foundation to know there stands a self entirely independent of your own. And you'd not dismiss it as the unknown, or an illusion or, more specifically, "nothing outside of me".


It is not the lack of communication but more of a misunderstanding. First and foremost the person you have identified yourself with is an illusion, it is a figment of your imagination, a rendition of brain consciousness. If I were to stand in front of you it is not the person I see but rather a reflection of myself. You are as I am; I am what you are. We are different in appearance but we are not separate. Further more, when I say I know myself as I am it does not imply the total. I can only have full knowledge of what I am not which is obviously all that can be known. There can be no end to that unknown quantity of myself.

In this respect there is no self independent of myself. There is only one self and it is all inclusive of the one consciousness. Whatever I see is an aspect of this consciousness, an unknown quantity of myself. Yet that part of me is not estranged from the totality of what I am in essence and in substance; hence the reason why I say all is known by me and through me, there is nothing outside of me. All is seen in my consciousness and nowhere else.


Well said.

I see what you are saying, but to say that I'm your reflection or that you are mine is something I can't determine about you. Are we inseparable in essence? Possibly, but that is outside my experience.


I do not say you are my reflection or that I am yours. In reality there is only seeing, the seer and the seen are mental formations invented by the mind. We are inseparable in both essence and substance.

It is the consciousness that sees rightly, brain consciousness cannot see the whole of it so it draws pictures to compensate for its inadequate vision. Your mind moulds itself to the conditions in which it is exposed to, thus your environment shapes your experience according to your belief.

What I'm able to see is that we are inseparable in body. That the reason I know through you by what is known by you is precisely because our make-up shares the same soil for experience. You are a body. I am a body. Your body produces feeling, thought, anxiety, intensity and relaxation from the same building blocks mine does and so our experiences are indistinguishable from one another.
But if I were to remove my body from this experience I'd at best only be implying we were inseparable in essence simply because removing my body is not an experience I have.


Quite so. The body appears in the mind, the mind in consciousness; consciousness is an aspect of awareness. These are only constituents of the one fact. Awareness is the binder, the immutable factor and the common matrix in every experience. So in actual fact it is the experiencer that is indistinguishable, not his experiences. Naturally they are going to be different since they reflect the experiencers various states of mind.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:13 pm

I see what you are saying. After reading, something within me is fighting the current. A butterfly trying to pull away...


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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Confidencia » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:09 am

digress wrote:I see what you are saying. After reading, something within me is fighting the current. A butterfly trying to pull away...


Image


Yes often times a butterfly will be drawn towards the light of a bulb only to be scorched by the intensity of its heat. Such is the nature of truth when it is sensed in its absoluteness.

From the moment you are born into this body you are fighting for your survival, your mothers attention, food and other necessities. This fight will be to the end.

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:58 pm

Are you a yogi?
  God is an idea.  

"For now, I am going to err on the side of freedom of speech..." -Pyrrho
"Every instance that has always existed is a piece of evidence that God is not needed." -yrreg
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Gord » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:21 pm

He's smarter than the average bear.
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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:56 am

digress wrote:Are you a yogi?
Here is Confidencia's first post on the forum under his original name Clarifyit4me.
Confidencia AKA Clariyit4me aka Anazia AKA Shaka wrote: As a secondary teacher in the Uk I find the idea of a holodeck an excellent concept in terms of stimulating the more hands on learner as well as the disaffected . The standardised formats for both Lessons & Lectures only work for specific learning styles & this creative approach would definitely be more motivating for many students .

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=21967&p=381331#p381331

Confidencia AKA Clariyit4me aka Anazia AKA Shaka wrote: Many years later after becoming a teacher myself I can see that they really were amongst the rare gems of the educational system . Yes the system is designed mostly to mass produced squads of information regurgitating students & yes because of its quantifiable targets

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=18134&p=381518#p381518

He isn't really a school teacher. He changed his name to Shaka when he got his lies all mixed up and couldn't spell basic words after claiming to be a "teacher". Indeed, you have met him before.....

Confidencia AKA Clariyit4me aka Anazia AKA Shaka wrote: but don't come here crying like a {!#%@} pussy because I've insulted you. You must have said something really stupid in order for me to have retaliate in such a manner. I will remind you again YOU CAME HERE, i was having an intelligent discourse with digress until that {!#%@} kennyc hijacked the thread and you {!#%@} numpties followed. If you don't like being insulted DO NOT COME HERE TALKING CRAP! Go pedal your {!#%@} somewhere else, in fact go crawl back up kennyc arsehole, its full of {!#%@}, so there is plenty to talk about.

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=23208&p=417400#p417173

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby digress » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:58 am

Image
  God is an idea.  

"For now, I am going to err on the side of freedom of speech..." -Pyrrho
"Every instance that has always existed is a piece of evidence that God is not needed." -yrreg
"I am not a concept..." -Confidencia

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Re: A new way to determine the role consciousness plays

Postby mirror93 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:09 am

placid wrote:
mirror93 wrote:
you mean what happens in the universe you perceive and filter with your mind your own pre-conceived opinions, yeah.
but there still an objective reality which you and me and everyone else are part of. you can't deny it. unless you're a solipsist.


The essential feeling of being is the same for every living person, in that they are all the same awareness.

The thought of an individual ''I'' person arises in the same awareness for every body.

It would not be possible for the ''I'' thought to arise or be recognised if there was no primary knowing awareness already present prior to the ''I'' thought.

So the ''I'' thought>>(I am Fred Blogs ) ...is known ONLY by Awareness that is always silently present as pure being. The ''I'' thought I am Fred Blogs it is not known by Fred Blogs.
Fred only exists as a ''thought'' appearing in awareness. An awareness that has to BE ..before any thought can be known to arise.

So it's not the individual ''I'' that knows...it's the awareness of the ''I'' thought that knows itself. The ''I'' thought being the known.

The ''I'' that is aware is the same ''I'' that knows.

The ''I'' that knows is the ''I'' that is known.

There is no objective world out-there...that is not first in-here, IN YOU ..AKA AWARENESS..

You are first and foremost awareness of every objective experience, and while objective experiences differ and are unique...that which is aware of every objective experience is the same ONE ...in every ONE

.


can you explain anosognosia with your theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

anosognosia clearly proves that awareness isn't anything more than what *you* (placid) have because of your brain .

ohhh, I bet you can't, because, you know what? awareness is a peripheral detail, more like a result of a brain muscle, that you're lucky to have. until you die, then it's all over for you and your consciousness and your self-awareness.

What do you mean by "known"? I now know a computer because I see a computer and I understand and then know that it's a computer, I don't see or understand or know a "known", that's stupid.

The 'I' that says that "The ''I'' that knows is the ''I'' that blah blah.. is placid making his own theory after reading too much advaita nonsense, funny isn't it?.

why do you put so much emphasis in "awareness"? why don't you put emphasis in yourself or in your memories, or perhaps the time ur losing trying to prove to others how your theory is incorrect, maybe u can start trying to recognize your persona again, your body, recognize that you are an individual and none of what u say makes sense, that you are finite and you are a mere mortal . perhaps look at the mirror for one hour?


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