The Inter Mind

What you think about how you think.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
SteveKlinko wrote: They may be correct or they may not be correct.
None of your religious speculations can possibly be correct. As you are religiously deluded you can't see obvious problems with your religion. The most hilarious being circular causation.

195,000 year ago
You claim your paranormal non-physical consciousness evolves with humans ....which means it came into existence 195,000 year ago.

3.8 billion years ago
You then simultaneously, claim the same paranormal non-physical consciousness caused evolution on Earth, 3.8 billion years ago, so as to allow for the evolution of....ready for it.....the same paranormal non-physical consciousness. :lol: :lol:

13.8 billion years ago
Then you, also, simultaneously claim the same paranormal non-physical consciousness started of the "Big Bang" 13.8 billion years ago......to allow earth to form........to allow same paranormal non-physical consciousness....to evolve into existence.

Can't you see this is circular and requires time travel?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
The section on the Primacy of Consciousness is not a part of the Inter Mind Model. It's merely some Speculations on Consciousness because nobody really knows anything about Consciousness. Here's what the website says:

The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.

Since Science is unable to say what Consciousness is we can and should speculate what it could be and how it could have developed. We can, for example, speculate that Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness. We can also speculate that the ultimate goal of Physical Evolution is to provide a better and better host for Consciousness. We can speculate that maybe the very Existence of the Physical Universe is pointless without Consciousness. Maybe the Physical Body is just some sort of incubator for the Conscious Mind and the Conscious Mind is the more important part. Maybe the Physical Mind creates a Connection to Conscious Space in order to create a Conscious Mind in that Conscious Space. The Conscious Mind would then strictly exist only in that Conscious Space. All speculations are still on the table. Remember that the only thing we know about the Physical Universe is through our Conscious experiences. Conscious Experiences are Primary to what we are.

Scientists need to find a way to understand and study Consciousness. They have to stop hiding their inability to study Consciousness by trying to minimize its importance. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:Pretentiousness is in the air.
I can summarise Steve Klinko's entire theory into three sentences.

"I, Steve Klinko, do not understand how animal brains evolved to represent external inputs, as things like colour, taste, feelings of warmth and so on. Therefore I believe a paranormal non-physical magical consciousness god created the universe, directed evolution on Earth and magically exchanges data with our brains to give the illusion of colour. Please buy my T-shirts."

I have no idea why Steve Klinko decided to post this religious, nonsensical crap on our atheist science based forum, that specifically exists to pull apart religious crap. :D
Are you saying that the topic of Consciousness itself is Religious? This would make sense, since you think anything Science cannot deal with is Religious. Science definitely cannot deal with Consciousness as is evidenced by the lack of explanation for Consciousness that I have seen on this thread.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:19 pm

Your assertion that a singularity is a mathematical convenience is not accurate, Steve. There is only a lack of explanation of singularities that you accept. A lack of understanding is not a lack of explanation.
For your assertion to be shown to be correct, you have the tiny problem of disproving not only the General Theory of Relativity but also every other modern cosmological theory. ALL of them begin with a singularity (a physical one, not merely a convenient notion).
Off you go, then - give us your evidence rather than your metaphysical opinion, please.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Cadmusteeth » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:45 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: Are you saying that the topic of Consciousness itself is Religious?
No, he's been addressing the topic with scientific evidence but you keep moving the goal posts. That's no one else's fault but yours.
SteveKlinko wrote:This would make sense, since you think anything Science cannot deal with is Religious. Science definitely cannot deal with Consciousness as is evidenced by the lack of explanation for Consciousness that I have seen on this thread.
You've been provided with plenty of evidence. You insist it's inadequate without providing evidence of your own and refuse to uphold the burden of proof. This is no one else's fault but your own.
Last edited by Cadmusteeth on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 pm

Some very interesting bedtime reading for you, Steve ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ciousness/
I'm tempted to say "Read it and weep" but I don't do petty so readily unless you're discussing sea serpents.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:57 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Are you saying that the topic of Consciousness itself is Religious?
No Steve Klinko. I am saying your religious claims are religious. You refuse to respond to any of my direct scientific questions about consciousness at all.

As you are really here to flog T-shirts and not answer questions, it seems the nature of your posts are commercial, which allows me to apply for your forum membership to be cancelled, under forum rules.

Do you want to start answering our scientific questions about your claims or not? If not I suggest you try again on another forum.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:31 am

SteveKlinko wrote:The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure.
This is now just religious spam to sell T-shirts.

Life on Earth started evolving 3.3 billion years before any animal that could have a consciousness evolved. Earlier plants, fungi, bacteria, viruses don't seek out pleasure. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are applying your religious anthropomorphic crap to evolution, again and again and again and refuse to answer our direct scientific questions.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:06 am

Poodle wrote:Your assertion that a singularity is a mathematical convenience is not accurate, Steve. There is only a lack of explanation of singularities that you accept. A lack of understanding is not a lack of explanation.
For your assertion to be shown to be correct, you have the tiny problem of disproving not only the General Theory of Relativity but also every other modern cosmological theory. ALL of them begin with a singularity (a physical one, not merely a convenient notion).
Off you go, then - give us your evidence rather than your metaphysical opinion, please.
The proper interpretation of Singularities and Infinities in Relativity equations and any other Physical World equation is and has always been a subject of debate.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:16 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:
SteveKlinko wrote: Are you saying that the topic of Consciousness itself is Religious?
No, he's been addressing the topic with scientific evidence but you keep moving the goal posts. That's no one else's fault but yours.
SteveKlinko wrote:This would make sense, since you think anything Science cannot deal with is Religious. Science definitely cannot deal with Consciousness as is evidenced by the lack of explanation for Consciousness that I have seen on this thread.
You've been provided with plenty of evidence. You insist it's inadequate without providing evidence of your own and refuse to uphold the burden of proof. This is no one else's fault but your own.
The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything. Does this explanation satisfy You? The Huge Explanatory Gap in this statement screams out for further Explaining.

I asked the question ... How does Neural Activity lead to or produce Conscious Activity? It is mind boggling that a bunch of Science Minded people would basically say the answer is ... It just does!

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:31 am

Poodle wrote:Some very interesting bedtime reading for you, Steve ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ciousness/
I'm tempted to say "Read it and weep" but I don't do petty so readily unless you're discussing sea serpents.
I am quite familiar with the work of Christof Koch. One of my favorite books on Consciousness is his The Quest for Consciousness. The link you have provided is just about the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. I have been through all that a long time ago. I talk about the NCC all the time. It is one of the first things I mention on the website. Koch has veered off into the Consciousness is Information Complexity approach. It has no explanatory power to say how we have a Red experience for example.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
SteveKlinko wrote:The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure.
This is now just religious spam to sell T-shirts.

Life on Earth started evolving 3.3 billion years before any animal that could have a consciousness evolved. Earlier plants, fungi, bacteria, viruses don't seek out pleasure. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are applying your religious anthropomorphic crap to evolution, again and again and again and refuse to answer our direct scientific questions.
Seems like that Speculation (and that is what it is stated to be) is perfectly logical. What explanation do you need for that? If you don't think Pain and Pleasure plays a part in guiding Evolution then explain how that could be. It seems completely obvious to me.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Poodle wrote:Some very interesting bedtime reading for you, Steve ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ciousness/
I'm tempted to say "Read it and weep" but I don't do petty so readily unless you're discussing sea serpents.
I am quite familiar with the work of Christof Koch. One of my favorite books on Consciousness is his The Quest for Consciousness. The link you have provided is just about the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. I have been through all that a long time ago. I talk about the NCC all the time. It is one of the first things I mention on the website. Koch has veered off into the Consciousness is Information Complexity approach. It has no explanatory power to say how we have a Red experience for example.
I don't think you are as familiar with what Koch says as you think. Try reading it again. From the little I read, i could see EXACTLY what he was saying with his "Consciousness is Information Complexity approach" so it must have some explanatory power - especially as it's almost precisely what I've been trying to get across to you. Yet you, once again, reject it out of hand. However, I've stared and stared at the relevant bits and I assert that it does have the power to explain consciousness through sensory phenomena, including redness. What is it about the article you completely fail to understand? Alternatively, what logical argument justifies your blanket denial?
All I've seen from you on this forum, and all I see on your website is a personal preference not backed by anything but 'what-ifs'. To say the least, the neural complexity argument is based upon things we can point to, touch, and demonstrate - your insistence, on the other hand, consists of esoteric assertion and explanations from the wabe ('Twas brillig, and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe).
I'm not even saying you're wrong, Steve - but your arguments are packed full of unnecessary entities and huge bias.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything.A Does this explanation satisfy You? B The Huge Explanatory Gap in this statement screams out for further Explaining.

I asked the question ... How does Neural Activity lead to or produce Conscious Activity? It is mind boggling that a bunch of Science Minded people would basically say the answer is ... It just does!C
AWhen talking about consciousnesses it inneInevitably leads to talk about neural activity and how it came about. Even you admit that consciousness is somehow connected to the brain. So to say what has been provided to you doesn’t explain everything you want to know without getting more specific
isn’t anyone’s fault but yours.

B. The goal in science is to follow the evidence wherever it leads and derive an explanation based on it. Whether the explanation satisfies you or me doesn’t matter.

C. Except that’s not at all what happened in this thread. You have been given ample explanations and you disregarded all of them without evidence. To say they just said so is blatant misrepresentation and is no one else’s fault than your own.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The proper interpretation of Singularities and Infinities in Relativity equations and any other Physical World equation is and has always been a subject of debate.
Incorrect. You don't even know what the scientific method is do you? All scientific theories have to fit into the framework of all evidence. Karl Popper clearly states that scientist look for any evidence that negates the hypothesis. I have post many forms of evidence that debunk your religious claim. You refuse to acknowledge that.

Your insane "inter mind" religion includes circular causation, denies singularities, denies evolution, denies DNA, denies basic physics and so on. You have simply claimed a "non-physical consciousness god" started the Big Bang and caused man to evolve on Earth.

You are posting on a science forum. Please relocate and post your religious spam on a religious forum.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:28 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote: If you don't think Pain and Pleasure plays a part in guiding Evolution then explain how that could be.
Plants. bacteria and fungi do not experience pleasure and pain. Life started on Earth 3.8 billion years ago and no animals that could feel pleasure and pain existed until 500 million years ago.

Your religious claim is debunked because evolution continued for 3.3 billion years without pleasure or pain.
SteveKlinko wrote: It seems completely obvious to me
The evidence is exactly the opposite to your claim. That's because you don't know what the theory of evolution is, while I studied human evolution at university for Anthropological Prehistory.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:44 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness probably is a result of Evolution.
SteveKlinko wrote: The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything.
Incorrect again You were informed that all conscious activity evolved from and is defined by DNA, which can only form physical things. As your "non-physical consciousness god" has no way of evolving or reproducing itself, it cannot exist and nor could it have progressed from say Australopithecus (2,5 million years ago) to modern Homo sapiens.

This evidence totally debunks your religious claim that a "non-physical paranormal consciousness god" exists.

Do you have any scientific counter argument or just more of your religious crap spams.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:24 am

SteveKlinko wrote: If you don't think Pain and Pleasure plays a part in guiding Evolution then explain how that could be.
I have great news for you. You share this view with forum member MattMVS7 also known as Omniverse. You should send him a private message to join you. I'm sure the psychiatric hospital he is in, won't mind. :lol:

Forum Internal Link : Omniverse : "Pleasure and Pain: there are no higher emotions"

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuilagU ... LlOIBl0V22[/bbvideo]

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:14 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote: If you don't think Pain and Pleasure plays a part in guiding Evolution then explain how that could be.
SteveKlinko wrote: There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. I think this is completely sensible.
Explain to us the evolution of the modern appendix in humans using your pleasure & pain "theory" of evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You have copied the discredited concept of Lamarckian inherited evolution (Giraffes want to get taller and therefore have taller offspring... :lol: :lol: :lol: ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
"Lamarck's Theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics has been disproved. This was done in two major ways. The first is by......."


(If you don't know how evolution actually works, then don't make up crap theories in front of forum members who actually studied evolution and organic chemistry.)
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:51 pm

Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Poodle wrote:Some very interesting bedtime reading for you, Steve ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ciousness/
I'm tempted to say "Read it and weep" but I don't do petty so readily unless you're discussing sea serpents.
I am quite familiar with the work of Christof Koch. One of my favorite books on Consciousness is his The Quest for Consciousness. The link you have provided is just about the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. I have been through all that a long time ago. I talk about the NCC all the time. It is one of the first things I mention on the website. Koch has veered off into the Consciousness is Information Complexity approach. It has no explanatory power to say how we have a Red experience for example.
I don't think you are as familiar with what Koch says as you think. Try reading it again. From the little I read, i could see EXACTLY what he was saying with his "Consciousness is Information Complexity approach" so it must have some explanatory power - especially as it's almost precisely what I've been trying to get across to you. Yet you, once again, reject it out of hand. However, I've stared and stared at the relevant bits and I assert that it does have the power to explain consciousness through sensory phenomena, including redness. What is it about the article you completely fail to understand? Alternatively, what logical argument justifies your blanket denial?
All I've seen from you on this forum, and all I see on your website is a personal preference not backed by anything but 'what-ifs'. To say the least, the neural complexity argument is based upon things we can point to, touch, and demonstrate - your insistence, on the other hand, consists of esoteric assertion and explanations from the wabe ('Twas brillig, and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe).
I'm not even saying you're wrong, Steve - but your arguments are packed full of unnecessary entities and huge bias.
How does Complexity produce Red? You understand that? I have been reading about the Complexity Theory of Consciousness and its relation to Integrated Information Theory for a while now. Seems like I first started hearing about it 10 years ago. I say that anything could ultimately be right when it comes to Consciousness. So I'll restate my usual question ... Given:

1) There is Complex Neural Activity happening
2) There is a Conscious experience happening

How does 1 happening result in 2 happening?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:58 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything.A Does this explanation satisfy You? B The Huge Explanatory Gap in this statement screams out for further Explaining.

I asked the question ... How does Neural Activity lead to or produce Conscious Activity? It is mind boggling that a bunch of Science Minded people would basically say the answer is ... It just does!C
AWhen talking about consciousnesses it inneInevitably leads to talk about neural activity and how it came about. Even you admit that consciousness is somehow connected to the brain. So to say what has been provided to you doesn’t explain everything you want to know without getting more specific
isn’t anyone’s fault but yours.

B. The goal in science is to follow the evidence wherever it leads and derive an explanation based on it. Whether the explanation satisfies you or me doesn’t matter.

C. Except that’s not at all what happened in this thread. You have been given ample explanations and you disregarded all of them without evidence. To say they just said so is blatant misrepresentation and is no one else’s fault than your own.
Do you really think that saying "the Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity" is any kind of explanation for Consciousness? Do you really think that when they say Consciousness is just an Illusion that that is any kind of explanation? Do you really think that saying Consciousness arises from Complexity is the answer? What is the theory that explains Consciousness for you?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:01 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The proper interpretation of Singularities and Infinities in Relativity equations and any other Physical World equation is and has always been a subject of debate.
Incorrect. You don't even know what the scientific method is do you? All scientific theories have to fit into the framework of all evidence. Karl Popper clearly states that scientist look for any evidence that negates the hypothesis. I have post many forms of evidence that debunk your religious claim. You refuse to acknowledge that.

Your insane "inter mind" religion includes circular causation, denies singularities, denies evolution, denies DNA, denies basic physics and so on. You have simply claimed a "non-physical consciousness god" started the Big Bang and caused man to evolve on Earth.

You are posting on a science forum. Please relocate and post your religious spam on a religious forum.
If you don't think that Singularities and Infinities are a subject of debate in Science then you are a Shallow Science thinker as well as a Shallow Consciousness thinker.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: 1) There is Complex Neural Activity happening
2) There is a Conscious experience happening

How does 1 happening result in 2 happening?
a) We can monitor complex neural activity.
b) We can monitor conscious experience happening at the same time using the same equipment.
That's because they're the same thing. If there is no complex neural activity happening, you are dead and therefore have no conscious experience. 1 does not result in 2. 1 is 2.
What I've said there, Steve, is a very cut-down version of where Earthling science stands. I haven't made it up. I have inserted no unnecessary entities into the argument. Your proposition (and it can be no more than that unless you have the hard evidence to go with it) is in itself an unnecessary entity. Nothing more is explained by your proposition than is already explained by your first statement. Complex neural activity in an organism can be shown to be an existing process. If there is no complex neural activity then it's as sure as the Moon not being made of green cheese that you cannot demonstrate consciousness in that same organism.
Statement 2 is completely and utterly dependent upon Statement 1. There's a reason for that.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:47 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:01 pm
If you don't think that Singularities and Infinities are a subject of debate in Science then you are a Shallow Science thinker as well as a Shallow Consciousness thinker.
There is no debate about a singularity being a zero point. That's why it is called a singularity you complete idiot. . You also can't deny they exist, as Black Holes are singularities.

You are claiming your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" magically sat outside of the initial singularity and caused its quantum fluctuation (Big Bang) and the inflation of the universe. Firstly, there is no "outside" to the initial singularity. Secondly, no information is contained in the singularity. Thirdly, you can't explain how your paranormal non-physical god magically can interact with physics.

Your problem is that you don't actually know what a singularity is and you know nothing about physics. :lol: :lol:

What makes you even more stupid, is you claimed your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" evolved after the Big Bang and yet you simultaneously claim it existed before the Big Bang. You contradict your own religious story.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:52 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote: If you don't think Pain and Pleasure plays a part in guiding Evolution then explain how that could be.
SteveKlinko wrote: There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. I think this is completely sensible.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:14 am
Explain to us the evolution of the modern appendix in humans using your pleasure & pain "theory" of evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Steve Klinko. Stop running away from your own claim. Tell us how your paranormal non-physical "consciousness god" uses pleasure and pain to cause evolution?

Are you admitting you can't do this? You don't actually know what DNA or evolution is, right?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:54 am

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SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness probably is a result of Evolution.
Hey Steve Klinko? Are you claiming that only one paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved to allow all conscious animals to see colour in their mind? Do you as a homo sapien, share the same paranormal "non-physical consciousness god" as a bunny rabbit? :lol:

If bunny rabbits see different colours for different electromagnetic frequencies to humans, doesn't that indicate, according to your insane theory, that every different species has its own different evolved paranormal "non-physical consciousness god"

Soooooo..... how do you know it wasn't the the "non-physical consciousness god"of bunny rabbits that set off the Big Bang and controlled evolution on Earth, as you claim? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

(I know you will refuse to answer this question as it exposes all the contradictions, faults, anthropocentric idiocy and hilarious concepts of your stupid non-physical consciousness religion.)
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:49 am

Poodle wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: 1) There is Complex Neural Activity happening
2) There is a Conscious experience happening

How does 1 happening result in 2 happening?
a) We can monitor complex neural activity.
b) We can monitor conscious experience happening at the same time using the same equipment.
That's because they're the same thing. If there is no complex neural activity happening, you are dead and therefore have no conscious experience. 1 does not result in 2. 1 is 2.
What I've said there, Steve, is a very cut-down version of where Earthling science stands. I haven't made it up. I have inserted no unnecessary entities into the argument. Your proposition (and it can be no more than that unless you have the hard evidence to go with it) is in itself an unnecessary entity. Nothing more is explained by your proposition than is already explained by your first statement. Complex neural activity in an organism can be shown to be an existing process. If there is no complex neural activity then it's as sure as the Moon not being made of green cheese that you cannot demonstrate consciousness in that same organism.
Statement 2 is completely and utterly dependent upon Statement 1. There's a reason for that.
Science can measure Neural Activity but Science cannot measure Conscious Activity. There is a Correlation between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity but they are certainly not the same thing. Neural Activity and Conscious Activity are two separate Categories of Phenomena. You cant just say that they are the same thing and that explains it. It is mind boggling that don't see the Hard Problem that still lurks in what you are saying. How can these two disparate Categories of things be the same thing? It could be true. But Science must do more than just say it. Science has to explain How this could be true.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:47 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:01 pm
If you don't think that Singularities and Infinities are a subject of debate in Science then you are a Shallow Science thinker as well as a Shallow Consciousness thinker.
There is no debate about a singularity being a zero point. That's why it is called a singularity you complete idiot. . You also can't deny they exist, as Black Holes are singularities.

You are claiming your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" magically sat outside of the initial singularity and caused its quantum fluctuation (Big Bang) and the inflation of the universe. Firstly, there is no "outside" to the initial singularity. Secondly, no information is contained in the singularity. Thirdly, you can't explain how your paranormal non-physical god magically can interact with physics.

Your problem is that you don't actually know what a singularity is and you know nothing about physics. :lol: :lol:

What makes you even more stupid, is you claimed your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" evolved after the Big Bang and yet you simultaneously claim it existed before the Big Bang. You contradict your own religious story.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hate to tell you this but it is common practice with any Scientific theory to consider Singularities in the Math as indicating a breakdown of the theory. Many Scientist recognize that the Theory of Relativity probably does break down in side a Black Hole with regard to the Singularity. Its very very dense inside a Black Hole but probably not Infinitely dense. You have got to start thinking more Deeply about things.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:... Science can measure Neural Activity but Science cannot measure Conscious Activity.
Oh, I'm pretty sure you can, Steve.
SteveKlinko wrote:... There is a Correlation between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity but they are certainly not the same thing.
A claim you haven't got anywhere near establishing yet.
SteveKlinko wrote:... Neural Activity and Conscious Activity are two separate Categories of Phenomena. You cant just say that they are the same thing and that explains it.
OK - but that must mean that you cannot claim that they're different, and for much the same reason.
SteveKlinko wrote:... It is mind boggling that don't see the Hard Problem that still lurks in what you are saying. How can these two disparate Categories of things be the same thing? It could be true. But Science must do more than just say it. Science has to explain How this could be true.
Oh, the irony! ... ...

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:58 pm
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything.A Does this explanation satisfy You? B The Huge Explanatory Gap in this statement screams out for further Explaining.

I asked the question ... How does Neural Activity lead to or produce Conscious Activity? It is mind boggling that a bunch of Science Minded people would basically say the answer is ... It just does!C
AWhen talking about consciousnesses it inneInevitably leads to talk about neural activity and how it came about. Even you admit that consciousness is somehow connected to the brain. So to say what has been provided to you doesn’t explain everything you want to know without getting more specific
isn’t anyone’s fault but yours.

B. The goal in science is to follow the evidence wherever it leads and derive an explanation based on it. Whether the explanation satisfies you or me doesn’t matter.

C. Except that’s not at all what happened in this thread. You have been given ample explanations and you disregarded all of them without evidence. To say they just said so is blatant misrepresentation and is no one else’s fault than your own.
Do you really think that saying "the Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity" is any kind of explanation for Consciousness? Do you really think that when they say Consciousness is just an Illusion that that is any kind of explanation? Do you really think that saying Consciousness arises from Complexity is the answer? What is the theory that explains Consciousness for you?
I see questions of if I think something and no questions as to why.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:53 am

Dodgeball.jpg
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:47 am
You are claiming your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" magically sat outside of the initial singularity and caused its quantum fluctuation (Big Bang) and the inflation of the universe. Firstly, there is no "outside" to the initial singularity. Secondly, no information is contained in the singularity. Thirdly, you can't explain how your paranormal non-physical god magically can interact with physics. Your problem is that you don't actually know what a singularity is and you know nothing about physics. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:10 am
Hate to tell you this but it is common practice with any Scientific theory to consider Singularities in the Math as indicating a breakdown of the theory.
Stop Dodging. You are so confused and ignorant that you are simultaneously claiming your paranormal "non-physical consciousness god" started the Big Bang from singularity while religiously pretending singularities don't exist. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can you produce any alternative scientific paper that says the "Big Bang" did not come from the initial singularity. :lol: :lol:
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:36 am

Dodgeball.jpg
Basic Questions Steve Kilnko refuses to answer about his religion's claims

1) When did the "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" exist.
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved, which means it came into existence after the "Big Bang". However Steve Klinko simultaneously claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" triggered the Big Bang. Which story is your claim Steve Klinko?


2) How did the "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" cause itself to evolve?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved. However Steve Klinko simultaneously states that his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" caused evolution. That is a circular impossibility. Explain this error in your religion Steve Klinko?


3) How does a non-physical "paranormal consciousness god" evolve?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved. However evolution is a physical process that requires physical DNA gene pools and advantageous gene selections to better respond to an environment. How can a non-physical thing evolve Steve Klinko?


4)How does a magical non physical thing cause anything to happen in normal physics?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" caused the singularity to quantize as the Big Bang, caused evolution of physical DNA on Earth, and magically interacts with normal physical brain neurons to create colour. Steve Klinko a) Give us one example of a non -physical thing that can interact with physics, b) Describe the mechanism that does this?


5) How does Steve Klinko's "pleasure & pain" evolutionary claim work and replace scientific Darwinian evolution?
Steve Klinko claims evolution is simultaneously caused by his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" and also by his "pleasure & pain" method.
Steve Klinko denies normal scientific evolution occurs. However plants, bacteria do not seek pleasure & pain and evolved on Earth for 3.3 billion years before the first animals evolved. Steve Klinko? How does your "pleasure & pain evolutionary model work using the evolution of the appendix as your example?


6) Is there one ""paranormal non-physical consciousness god" for each species or one god fits all?
Steve Klinko claims his paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved, which suggests it is one type of "god". That means as bees, humans, dogs and goats can all see colour that Steve Klinkos "god" allows all these animals to see colour. Steve Klinko, do you claim there is one universal "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" or does every evolved species in the universe have its own evolved version?


7) If evolved DNA sequences physically define all brain activities, why do we need an additional non-physical thing anyway?
We know that physical brains have the "wiring" to process colour data. We have cones, optic nerves and V4 area of the brain to match current colour data with colour memory images. We may not know the sequences that allow for this but we can see the data being processed in MRIs. We know that physical DNA defines physical protein chains to allow for this. Steve Klinko" Why do we need an additional magical non-physical process and how does a non-physical process exchange and store data?


8) How can something exist outside of the initial singularity / What science paper states this?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" existed outside of the singularity from which the Big Bang inflated. As there was no matter or energy or any dimensions outside of the initial singularity. due to single point gravitational curving, that cannot be true. As Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" caused the Big Bang that came from the singularity Steve Klinko is saying exactly opposite things. Does Steve Klinko have any scientific paper that states something could exist outside of the initial singularity?

Klinko 5.jpg
Spamming religion on the forum / Not answering Skeptic's questions about his religious claims
If Steve Klinko refuses to answer these direct questions about his claim, I will apply to the forum moderator to ban Steve Klinko, for simply posting on our science forum to spam his religion with the aim of selling his t-shirts.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:11 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:... Science can measure Neural Activity but Science cannot measure Conscious Activity.
Oh, I'm pretty sure you can, Steve.
SteveKlinko wrote:... There is a Correlation between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity but they are certainly not the same thing.
A claim you haven't got anywhere near establishing yet.
SteveKlinko wrote:... Neural Activity and Conscious Activity are two separate Categories of Phenomena. You cant just say that they are the same thing and that explains it.
OK - but that must mean that you cannot claim that they're different, and for much the same reason.
SteveKlinko wrote:... It is mind boggling that don't see the Hard Problem that still lurks in what you are saying. How can these two disparate Categories of things be the same thing? It could be true. But Science must do more than just say it. Science has to explain How this could be true.
Oh, the irony! ... ...
If you think that saying Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that Explains it for you then there's nothing else I can say. I have tried. I still see a Huge Explanatory Gap in the statement. The only thing I can say is to think more Deeply about the Conscious experience itself. Think about the Redness of Red. Think about whatever Color you want. Think about the Whiteness of White if you are color blind. Think about the Sound of a 440Hz tone. These things are very special and must be Explained. Start with one of these Experiences itself and tell me How Neural Activity produces this? Saying that the Neural Activity IS the Redness is not even Scientific. It's more of a Hope and Belief.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:13 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:58 pm
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The explanation I get from the Physicalists is that The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that is supposed to explain everything.A Does this explanation satisfy You? B The Huge Explanatory Gap in this statement screams out for further Explaining.

I asked the question ... How does Neural Activity lead to or produce Conscious Activity? It is mind boggling that a bunch of Science Minded people would basically say the answer is ... It just does!C
AWhen talking about consciousnesses it inneInevitably leads to talk about neural activity and how it came about. Even you admit that consciousness is somehow connected to the brain. So to say what has been provided to you doesn’t explain everything you want to know without getting more specific
isn’t anyone’s fault but yours.

B. The goal in science is to follow the evidence wherever it leads and derive an explanation based on it. Whether the explanation satisfies you or me doesn’t matter.

C. Except that’s not at all what happened in this thread. You have been given ample explanations and you disregarded all of them without evidence. To say they just said so is blatant misrepresentation and is no one else’s fault than your own.
Do you really think that saying "the Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity" is any kind of explanation for Consciousness? Do you really think that when they say Consciousness is just an Illusion that that is any kind of explanation? Do you really think that saying Consciousness arises from Complexity is the answer? What is the theory that explains Consciousness for you?
I see questions of if I think something and no questions as to why.
Correct. These statements are what the Physicalists say explains Consciousness. They never even try to put forward a How or a Why.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:23 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:53 am
Dodgeball.jpg
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:47 am
You are claiming your paranormal, non-physical "consciousness god" magically sat outside of the initial singularity and caused its quantum fluctuation (Big Bang) and the inflation of the universe. Firstly, there is no "outside" to the initial singularity. Secondly, no information is contained in the singularity. Thirdly, you can't explain how your paranormal non-physical god magically can interact with physics. Your problem is that you don't actually know what a singularity is and you know nothing about physics. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:10 am
Hate to tell you this but it is common practice with any Scientific theory to consider Singularities in the Math as indicating a breakdown of the theory.
Stop Dodging. You are so confused and ignorant that you are simultaneously claiming your paranormal "non-physical consciousness god" started the Big Bang from singularity while religiously pretending singularities don't exist. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can you produce any alternative scientific paper that says the "Big Bang" did not come from the initial singularity. :lol: :lol:
Of course it is thought that everything came from a theoretical Singularity. But I am trying to get you to think a little more Deeply about a Singularity. There is pretty good debate as to whether the Singularity at the Big Bang was in fact Infinite Density. I think it is also pretty well accepted that an Infinite anything is probably not going to be a feature of anything in a Physical Universe, including Space. Think more Deeply about Science. Then when you learn how do that, think more Deeply about Consciousness.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:46 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:36 am
Dodgeball.jpg

7) If evolved DNA sequences physically define all brain activities, why do we need an additional non-physical thing anyway?
We know that physical brains have the "wiring" to process colour data. We have cones, optic nerves and V4 area of the brain to match current colour data with colour memory images. We may not know the sequences that allow for this but we can see the data being processed in MRIs. We know that physical DNA defines physical protein chains to allow for this. Steve Klinko" Why do we need an additional magical non-physical process and how does a non-physical process exchange and store data?
I erased everything that implied, that I said anything about God or Religion. You are saying I am promoting a Religion and God. I never promote the concept of God or Religion.

We don't probably Need the concept of Consciousness, but there it is staring you in the face. Consciousness is the 800 pound Gorilla in the Scientific room. Consciousness obviously does Exist and you cannot just wish it away. You cannot just say that Conscious experience does not Exist. You are a Shallow thinker if you can only think of Consciousness in terms of Religion. Think about the Redness of Red. Think about the experience of all the Colors. Think about the Whiteness of White if you are color blind. Think about a 440 Hz Tone. And yes think about the Salty Taste. These are things that cannot be Explained by DNA or any Physical Process. They Exist for you (maybe) and for me (definitely). These Experiences are self evidently outside the realm of what Science can explain and what Science does Explain. Think more Deeply about Conscious experience and maybe someday it will hit you and you will realize how Blinded you are right now.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:47 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:11 pm
If you think that saying Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and that Explains it for you then there's nothing else I can say. I have tried. I still see a Huge Explanatory Gap in the statement. The only thing I can say is to think more Deeply about the Conscious experience itself. Think about the Redness of Red. Think about whatever Color you want. Think about the Whiteness of White if you are color blind. Think about the Sound of a 440Hz tone. These things are very special and must be Explained. Start with one of these Experiences itself and tell me How Neural Activity produces this? Saying that the Neural Activity IS the Redness is not even Scientific. It's more of a Hope and Belief.
Yes, I know that you still see that gap, Steve. I don't and never did. As far as opposing claims are concerned, it's an impasse. I have thought about red and all other visible colours. As an ex-orchestral musician, I know what 440 Hz is and what it means to me. I know what redolence means - and I'm a sucker for it. But these things are NOT special. They're normal. They constitute the day-to-day way in which humans deal with their environment.
I really do enjoy my physical experiences. But I fail to understand when someone wants to make something special from mundanely normal phenomena.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:35 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:23 pm
Of course it is thought that everything came from a theoretical Singularity.
Firstly, that means your "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" could not have existed outside the initial singularity and could not have caused the Big Bang as you claimed Secondly, singularities are not theoretical as all Black Holes are singularities, including the Black Hole in the middle of our galaxy. Why do you continue to lie so much? :lol: :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:23 pm
There is pretty good debate as to whether the Singularity at the Big Bang was in fact Infinite Density.
There is no debate. I have asked you four times to provide any scientific paper that states there was something external to the singularity and you fail to provide anything. You then directly lie and repeat this debunked claim.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:23 pm
You are saying I am promoting a Religion and God. I never promote the concept of God or Religion.
You are lying again. You are directly claiming a paranormal non-physical consciousness, that can go back and forth in time decided to both start the Big Bang .......and direct evolution on Earth. You have no evidence for any of this claim and whole parts of your claim conflict with entire other parts. This is pure 100% religion claim that you have made up to sell your "Inter Mind religious T-shirts. Why do you lie so much? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:38 pm

Dodgeball.jpg
Here are the questions that you dodged. Answer them or I will apply to have you banned for spamming your religion on our forum, refusing to answer skeptic's questions, so you can promote and sell your t-shirts for commercial gain.

1) When did the "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" exist.
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved, which means it came into existence after the "Big Bang". However Steve Klinko simultaneously claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" triggered the Big Bang. Which story is your claim Steve Klinko?


2) How did the "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" cause itself to evolve?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved. However Steve Klinko simultaneously states that his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" caused evolution. That is a circular impossibility. Explain this error in your religion Steve Klinko?


3) How does a non-physical "paranormal consciousness god" evolve?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved. However evolution is a physical process that requires physical DNA gene pools and advantageous gene selections to better respond to an environment. How can a non-physical thing evolve Steve Klinko?


4)How does a magical non physical thing cause anything to happen in normal physics?
Steve Klinko claims his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" caused the singularity to quantize as the Big Bang, caused evolution of physical DNA on Earth, and magically interacts with normal physical brain neurons to create colour. Steve Klinko a) Give us one example of a non -physical thing that can interact with physics, b) Describe the mechanism that does this?


5) How does Steve Klinko's "pleasure & pain" evolutionary claim work and replace scientific Darwinian evolution?
Steve Klinko claims evolution is simultaneously caused by his "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" and also by his "pleasure & pain" method.
Steve Klinko denies normal scientific evolution occurs. However plants, bacteria do not seek pleasure & pain and evolved on Earth for 3.3 billion years before the first animals evolved. Steve Klinko? How does your "pleasure & pain evolutionary model work using the evolution of the appendix as your example?


6) Is there one ""paranormal non-physical consciousness god" for each species or one god fits all?
Steve Klinko claims his paranormal non-physical consciousness god" evolved, which suggests it is one type of "god". That means as bees, humans, dogs and goats can all see colour that Steve Klinkos "god" allows all these animals to see colour. Steve Klinko, do you claim there is one universal "paranormal non-physical consciousness god" or does every evolved species in the universe have its own evolved version?


7) If evolved DNA sequences physically define all brain activities, why do we need an additional non-physical thing anyway?
We know that physical brains have the "wiring" to process colour data. We have cones, optic nerves and V4 area of the brain to match current colour data with colour memory images. We may not know the sequences that allow for this but we can see the data being processed in MRIs. We know that physical DNA defines physical protein chains to allow for this. Steve Klinko" Why do we need an additional magical non-physical process and how does a non-physical process exchange and store data?
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by placid » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:47 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:25 pm

The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
The universe is non-physical Steve. The physical is a fictional mental concept of the non-physical mind.

Non-dual spirituality is NOT based on belief or faith but on 'direct experience'

But rationalists balk at 'direct experience' because it can't be "objectified".

Nothing happens in your brain because the brain is an object: - objects are not aware of themselves.

The rationalists will never get this.

____

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by placid » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:58 am

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